Quality of NTE containment thread

[Blockio]

Namv, you're missing the point here. As you said yourself, the way the message is cmmunicated is important. Wouldn't you agree that a complete shift in medium counts as having impact?

[NamvM74]

Namv, you're missing the point here. As you said yourself, the way the message is communicated is important. Wouldn't you agree that a complete shift in medium counts as having impact?

I find it cliché, incredibly on the nose, and aesthetically unpleasing. There's not even any environmental effects to give us a sense of finality. Even the Manga ended with some gorgeous snow. If people think this ending is as original ,creative, and dramatic as EoE then obviously they can think that. I think it will be a position that's hard to defend.

[RLLRRR]

People hate on how Rei is handled in Re-Take, but Asuka is given the same treatment in the Rebuilds.

IIRC, Rei kills herself in Re-Take and a good portion of the story revolves around Shinji marrying Asuka. Hardly the same as Shin where Asuka is alive and possibly content with her living situation with Kensuke, and Shinji is with Mari having an ambiguous relationship in a world free of Eva.

What I mean is Rei is cast-off as a side character, despite being the second (or third, depending on your view) most important character to the story. Anno casts Shikinami off as a side character as well. Sure, she "possibly" has a content life in a world free of Eva, but she certainly deserves a little more closure than she actually gets. Like I said before, 3.0+1.0 is a culmination of over two decades of Evangelion (regardless of whether or not NGE and the Rebuilds are related). If this is truly Anno walking away from Eva forever, you'd think he'd treat everyone that made him who he is with a little more respect.

Truly good fanfiction (and it does exist on this very site!) doesn't abandon character identities and motivations at all. It takes them and expands upon them, or recasts them in a different light altogether. Part of the lack of time given to character development is the result of the movie format, and the compression or omission of a great deal of character development material. But the fact remains - as in the case of fanfiction - that we already have these characters in a highly developed state and the audience is highly familiar with them. Therefore, the entire point of NTE is to use those character development elements and ideas from the previous series that already existed and reframe/recast/rewrite them to create a new work that has an entirely different meaning based on building blocks familiar to the audience from NGE, the Manga and all the spinoff stuff.

Mari is the only truly new character and it is easy to call her a "self-insert" but why does she seem a "self-insert" and why is Asuka no longer the love interest? It's because the characters themselves have changed, and it raises a question about what we expect from these characters in the first place, and why we expect so much from them in the first place.

"Only humans can exist in both fiction and reality" - that is Anno using Gendo to make really solid commentary on the nature of anime in general, and I wouldn't expect anything less from the master!

But that's my point: there is a multitude of good fanfiction that continues to hold the characters in the proper regards. NTE started getting away from it in 2.0 and then seemingly directly attacked it in 3.0. Anno damn-near assassinated every character that wasn't Shinji: Misato abandoned her "Mom-sato" role, Ritsuko just became background fodder, Rei was effectively missing for all of 3.0 and split between two different people in 3.0+1.0 (hell, Shinji wouldn't even accept that she was a different person and still called her "Ayanami"), and I've said my peace about Asuka enough times.

I get it: they're Hideaki Anno's toys and he gets to play with them however he wants. But, as someone who's been a part of the fandom since 2001 (I started with Death & Rebirth followed by EoE, so I was very confused for a while), it's a shame when he finishes the play session by strapping the characters to a bottle rocket because he can.

[TheFriskyIan]

What I mean is Rei is cast-off as a side character, despite being the second (or third, depending on your view) most important character to the story. Anno casts Shikinami off as a side character as well. Sure, she "possibly" has a content life in a world free of Eva, but she certainly deserves a little more closure than she actually gets. Like I said before, 3.0+1.0 is a culmination of over two decades of Evangelion (regardless of whether or not NGE and the Rebuilds are related). If this is truly Anno walking away from Eva forever, you'd think he'd treat everyone that made him who he is with a little more respect.

Is Asuka really cast off like Rei was in RT though? Asuka makes it to the very end and gets plenty of screen time in the finale along with a heart warming interaction with Shinji. That's more than you can say for other characters, namely Misato, who had a whole movie before Asuka to be more fleshed out. I'd hardly call what Asuka got disrespect. It would be disrespectful to not have any sort of interaction between her and Shinji. You can be frustrated that there wasn't a cut of her in the train station scene in the ending; but if Rei & Kaworu weren't the paranormal entities that they've always been do you think they'd be in there at all? Regardless, I don't really know what you're looking for in a send off for her.

[Settie]

^ If her NTE arc is that she was lonely since childhood and wanted company, mayhaps showing her being alone in the end buried in a device the same way it was shown earlier to signify her loneliness, wasn't a good idea. It could've just as easily have been her showing cat memes or random shit on her device to Kensuke, or anyone really. To show her alone is like she's the only one that didn't get a positive ending. Which is quite odd given that every other pilot got a positive ending.

[TheFriskyIan]

^ If her NTE arc is that she was lonely since childhood and wanted company, mayhaps showing her being alone in the end buried in a device the same way it was shown earlier to signify her loneliness, wasn't a good idea. It could've just as easily have been her showing cat memes or random shit on her device to Kensuke, or anyone really. To show her alone is like she's the only one that didn't get a positive ending. Which is quite odd given that every other pilot got a positive ending.

But we all know know she isn't alone. The characters know it, the writers know it, the audience knows it. Shinji flat out tells her (and by extension, the viewer) that she still has at least one person to give her company by telling her to give Kensuke his regards. Maybe showing her waking up with Kensuke would've been ideal but after her interaction with Shinji, I feel it'd just be beating a dead horse, not to mention it'd probably fan the flames of anger for shippers more than what they've already been given.

[Settie]

Yet the other pilots had their positive "ending" reaffirmed.

kaworu wasn't Shinji obsessed and was talking to other people.
Rei was out and about enjoying life.
Shinji was free from eva and the shitshow it made of his life.
Mari was just there so no difference there.
Asuka though... alone again.

That ending is the ending for the pilots, it's the definitive end of their NTE journey showing how things had changed. Yet Asuka is alone, it's not difficult to see that as problematic.

[Xenoblade]

But we all know know she isn't alone.

No we don't know that, though...it's open to interpretation.

Yet the other pilots had their positive "ending" reaffirmed.

Asuka though... alone again.

That ending is the ending for the pilots, it's the definitive end of their NTE journey showing how things had changed. Yet Asuka is alone, it's not difficult to see that as problematic.

Exactly this, and unfortunately I feel we'll never get any elaboration on it either in this Rebuild timeline. What you see is what you get.

Maybe the next creator who takes the reins will give Asuka more of a conclusion.

As for shipping, Asuka doesn't need to be paired off with anyone, but she's a more interesting character to show interacting with another character in the train segment than Mari is. Being given the least time, like an ex-girlfriend you avoid like the plague, is less than ideal. If Shinji really liked her quite a bit it's all right to elaborate a bit more, or to show awkward interactions years later. It's more realistic than finding a Mari in your life and cutting an Asuka loose just when things get interesting.

[FelipeFritschF]

Maybe the next creator who takes the reins will give Asuka more of a conclusion.

There will certainly, absolutely be demand for that. I doubt any future creator will be allowed to outright make a sequel on that rebuilt world, though. Even in the leftover Eva world it's unlikely. If they just get Shinji back there, it'd feel like a cheap cop-out, anyway. Either way, adult Children (lol) is a dream of mine since forever and I hope to at the very least see them in merch, if not spin-offs. A modest, down-to-earth, adult Eva drama would be absolutely fantastic. Anno can absolutely pull these off, as per his live action work.

I'm a massive Asuka and Asushin fan, though Misato is my actual 2nd favourite. Now, of course I also care about Shinji's happiness and he certainly has it here (Mari interpretation aside...), but for Asuka? I dunno... first, I think it's pretty safe to ascribe the "father figure" role to Kensuke at this point, because they are absolutely not an item:

Asuka: I have been alone, until now and from now on, always alone.
That is obvious, Asuka.

This isn't something a well-resolved person would say, because Asuka still isn't. Which makes the distance between her and Shinji feel even harder to swallow. Her earlier confession scene is amazing. Mature. Her behaviour throughout the movie is not. Her response to Shinji's confession even less so. She just reverts to total tsundere mode. It doesn't match.

I don't know if she's gonna be happy. With or without Shinji, or Kensuke.

Her rebuilt world self is an open-book though and I think that, like in the manga, she's not concretely the same character. Kaworu and Rei both have OBVIOUS fulfilling endings, letting go of Shinji, and that's great for them. With Asuka it's not so clear. If Asuka had just smiled and said "thanks" that would have been fantastic. You can interpret it as just acknowledgement that makes her feel better about herself, about her having been loved too. IIRC she has a similar line to that in 2.0 (thinking one can't be loved is a common theme in Eva, after all). But I dunno. It feel conflictuous.

A more clearly open-ended ending could have worked better too. All of the former Children together, as friends, vague ambiguities aside.

If I knew a girl 10 years ago and we had a wonderful friendship but never tied the knot despite mutual romantic attraction, but she had to move or whatever, I wouldn't expect her to stay attached to me. Let's say one day she returns, we get reacquainted. She says she loved me in the past. I feel weirded out for some reason, but eventually say the same thing Shinji says. But her reaction to that isn't to just form a nice friendship (and a good basis for one, I'd argue), instead she acts like she's gonna break down crying. Turns out she hasn't gotten over me at all. How would I feel about that, if I no longer feel that for her?

[Jäeger]

Like, imagine Shin was, in fact, EoE. Imagine we'd get every last line of dialogue, a couple of camrips showing some portions of the film that wouldn't amount to more than 10 minutes. We are in pretty much the same situation here. And me saying that will probably be met with some cries of "But EoE is a great work and what we know of Shin tells us all we need to know!" But, imagine having no idea of what Instrumentality in EoE is. Imagine that all you know is that Asuka gets torn to shreds by a bunch of ugly white bird Evas, that Rei goes into Lilith and becomes a big giant white creature and that people suddenly turn into orange juice. Would this be an accurate enough description of the process of Third Impact that would allow us to adequately analyze what that is? No, it wouldn't.

If I was getting leaks like this of EoE back in 1997 IDK exactly what I would think. But seeing these images would stun and disturb me. I would know that I had to see the film.




The Final image of EoE is haunting and a masterpiece of composition and art direction.

The final image of 3.0+1.0 is literally product placement and the animated portion of the ending looks like your basic slice of life anime just with adults. Nothing about that is dragging me in. Its not provocative in any way.

And that's the reason nobody will give a damn about Shin 24 yeras into the future. I know I'm being arrogant, but mark my words.

And that jump to the real world...my god, the lack of originality and pretentiouness

[Konja7]

My feelings about Asuka are complicated.

In the TV anime, my favorite character was Asuka and I really ship Asushin.

However, in Rebuild, I don't really care much about Asuka. So, her ending won't probably affect much my enjoyment of the movie.

[Jäeger]

Felipe, please. Stop making the entire artistic validity of Shin and NTE as a whole about shipping. It's tiresome.

It was Anno's choice to determine that a girl fallen from the sky changes your life, not ours. And is a choice that breaks the narrative of four films, just for the sake of being meta. So it's legitimate the criticism, positive ir negative. Same goes as deconstruction just for the sake of deconstruction. The trick that worked maybe doesn't work twice.

My feelings about Asuka are complicated.

In the TV anime, my favorite character was Asuka and I really ship Asushin.

However, in Rebuild, I don't really care much about Asuka. So, her ending won't probably affect much my enjoyment of the movie.

Anno didn't care too much about her either.

[LazyPOS]

I wonder would some people better acccept the ending if instead of Mari, 30 year old Shinji ended up with... A random unnamed girl we see for the first time, maybe looking like that girl from spinoff manga/game as a slight nod, and all the other characters appearing as cameos?

In the OG, i "shipped" cast x therapy, or if I had to pick someone ShinjixAsuka after 5 years of therapy (which is why i like Ghosts of Evangelion), but that's still a terrible relationship. They could only work if they solve their problems, seperate from each other. They better work as friends. This is irrelevant, since Shikinami =/= Soryu anyway.
But unimportant bullshit aside, why do people fell NTE threatens the legacy of NGE? They are seperate continuities.

One thing I don't like, and that's still me judging a movie I never saw, beside spoilers I read online, is that it ends with a world reset, which is the one thing I hated about Sadamoto's manga.
Your actions have consequences. If you were a complete NEET till your 30s, you will have to learn stuff about relationships and work that other people learned in their teenage years, and some options are closed for you. If you were an abusive or neglectful alhocholic, there are people you hurt that might never forgive you, no matter how much you changed. It's never too late and you still have to try to be better, no matter what.

The reset without consequences hurts the message (or rather, something I got from EoE that might be completely off the mark with what Anno was actually trying to do with NTE), more than our MC ending with a underdeveloped character at the end.
I still can't judge Rebuilds after I see the last movie.

[Axx°N N.]

I wonder would some people better acccept the ending if instead of Mari, 30 year old Shinji ended up with... A random unnamed girl we see for the first time, maybe looking like that girl from spinoff manga/game as a slight nod, and all the other characters appearing as cameos?

I still think that would rub people the wrong way. A strength of all of Eva's previous endings, and something I was surprised Sadamoto had the restraint to do in his ending given his obvious Rei preference, was that they all allowed you to make up your own mind about certain things and project some of yourself into Shinji for posterity. I really don't understand why Anno saw the need to remove ambiguity or "room to imagine," unless he felt it accomplished something valuable to disinheret the audience in the specific sense that they'll no longer be able to self-identify as Shinji to the same extent, specifcially if they happen to have trouble imagining themselves liking Mari as a romantic partner or person, if they aren't heterosexual, aren't extroverted, etc.

Again, it only seems to make sense as an expy for his wife, a gesture of self-insertion and personal release; "NGE was me depressed, that's what happened to me then, this is me happy, this is what happened to me since. Goodbye."

[Jäeger]

The reset without consequences hurts the message (or rather, something I got from EoE that might be completely off the mark with what Anno was actually trying to do with NTE), more than our MC ending with a underdeveloped character at the end.

The latter is also a very toxic message. In real life extrovert girls that haven't met you before and act with extraordinary familiarity and save you from your neet life don't exist. Human relationships are way more complicated (and even twisted) than that. Life is not Amelie. We got enough of that shit in the 2000s

I never expected from Anno a message closer to a TED Talk.

Again, it only seems to make sense as an expy for his wife, a gesture of self-insertion and personal release; "NGE was me depressed, that's what happened to me then, this is me happy, this is what happened to me since. Goodbye."

Ok, it's fine, there is nothing wrong about it. But then develop that relationship. And don't destroy the almost coprotagonist fo NGE in the process. As I've said before, the Mari debate is not from 2021. Meta just for the sake of being meta.

[ChaddyManPrime]

Does Mari qualify as a manic pixie dream girl? Does she listen to the smiths?

[Jäeger]

Does Mari qualify as a manic pixie dream girl? Does she listen to the smiths?

The glasses say YES

[Axx°N N.]

To make an unusual departure from my wordy posts:

Shin Eva when reduced to the whole Asuka & Shinji & Mari thing is basically just (500) Days of Summer but with quantum mechs.

[TheFriskyIan]

Ok, it's fine, there is nothing wrong about it. But then develop that relationship. And don't destroy the almost coprotagonist fo NGE in the process.

What value does Soryu’s role in NGE have to do with Shikinami’s role in NTE? Anno isn’t retroactively erasing Soryu’s significance in NGE just because Shikinami in NTE isn’t as vital a side character as others.

[LazyPOS]

I still think that would rub people the wrong way. A strength of all of Eva's previous endings, and something I was surprised Sadamoto had the restraint to do in his ending given his obvious Rei preference, was that they all allowed you to make up your own mind about certain things and project some of yourself into Shinji for posterity.

This is why I love what they did with Asuka in EoE. Always saw EoE ending as the beginning of Shinji's life instead of some grand finale and conclusion. And while I have strong bias for Asuka, since she reminds me of a girl I couldn't stand in high school and we somehow became best friends in college, and were close to this day (people are weird), the way EoE ends that relationship can go anywhere. And Shinji and his growth (refusal of Instrumentality) is more important than "getting the girl"

Again, it only seems to make sense as an expy for his wife, a gesture of self-insertion and personal release; "NGE was me depressed, that's what happened to me then, this is me happy, this is what happened to me since. Goodbye."

Funny thing is, reading the spoilers and my initial negative reaction to the leaks made me reconsider what other peoples works of fiction mean to me, and how I should move on and spend my energy on something meaningful to me, instead of being angry about it for no good reason.