Loop Theory (I Really was born to meet you)

[KurisuNimii]

Most of you should know the loop theory, this theory says that rebuilds instead of just being a remake of evangelion, are actually a continuation of EOE (The end of evangelion) on the third impact the world restarted and turned the rebuilds, there is some evidence like the bloodstain on the moon and certain very suggestive lines from Kaworu...

In this theory, Kaworu is the only one who knows this and remembers the events of the anime, I'm not going to talk about the whole loop theory, just about a proof of the theory that moves me a lot and warms my heart

This proof is:





And this repeats in rebuild 3.33 but a little differently...





Many people will look at this and think that Rebuild is just making a reference to orignal anime, but when you look at it from the perspective of the loop theory... You see that Kaworu is answering the question he asked years ago, when he first met Shinji

and after seeing him again, and finally having spent more time together, after so many years of waiting and pain, they are together (again) now he saw his love again, he saw that he was still the same sweet boy, he felt that connection again, now he has the answer to the question he asked years ago, now Kaworu is sure... he was born to meet Shinji.

I want him so badly to come back

[donutbruit]

bro i like kaworu too but this really is just a call back; do you not remember the kaworu scene near the ending of 1.11

[Reichu]

"Loop theory" -- or whatever it's being called any given day -- is very, very old news around here, and it's pretty discredited at this point. Sequelist stand-bys you mention like blood stains have been explained as consequences of Second Impact for several years, and Kaworu's weird behavior toward Shinji has had an in-universe explanation for around a year. What you're pointing out is a callback. The movies are full of them and Anno featuring them in his work is nothing new. These callbacks are a bit more meta than usual, due to the fact that they're commenting upon another version of the same story that he and the other staff did, but it's still all they are.

(Donutbruit partly beat me to it, oh well.)

[KurisuNimii]

"Loop theory" -- or whatever it's being called any given day -- is very, very old news around here, and it's pretty discredited at this point. Sequelist stand-bys you mention like blood stains have been explained as consequences of Second Impact for several years, and Kaworu's weird behavior toward Shinji has had an in-universe explanation for around a year. What you're pointing out is a callback. The movies are full of them and Anno featuring them in his work is nothing new. These callbacks are a bit more meta than usual, due to the fact that they're commenting upon another version of the same story that he and the other staff did, but it's still all they are.

(Donutbruit partly beat me to it, oh well.)

I know that this theory is very very old here, but i would like to revive this subject to find out what your point of view is
and honestly, you will judge me but I really believe in this theory

[Reichu]

If you want to know my point of view, we have SO MANY threads where this has all been hashed out already. There's nothing really new to talk about. I would love to hear something new, but to provide something new you need to have some idea of what's already been argued to death.

https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A ... ild+sequel
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A ... build+loop
https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A ... uild+cycle

If you want to revive something that's been both (A) discussed to death, AND (B) thoroughly discredited, then you need to have something new and interesting to show. You have to do better than a comparison that really just belongs here. Approach your own ideas with a scathingly critical eye, see what others have already done, and try to come up with something that fits the entire narrative as best as possible. If anyone "judges" you, it's because this "theory" is built on the flimsiest of foundations. None of the (usu. thoroughly cherry-picked and/or extensively debunked) evidence actually supports the conclusion. Alternative explanations and their comparative probability are not accounted for. There is no way to test the idea or falsify it in the face of other evidence.

Challenge yourself! Show us something we've never seen!

[ErgoProxy]

Empathy...

you will judge me

Take it easy. She's not a Japanese court.

I want him [Kaworu] so badly to come back

He appeared in trailer. On the other hand, I noticed some rumours saying that Shinji is Mr. Anno's self insert. In this case, Kaworu could represent some random otaku (or even a Western weeaboo fond on Japan as such). Do you love Japan Anno?

Kaworu's weird behavior toward Shinji has had an in-universe explanation for around a year

You mean the Blake's mythology? If so, you've trumped my own arrogance and I must say, this is a thing. That some theory holds on by its own logic, it doesn't yet mean it's true.

"Loop theory" -- or whatever it's being called any given day -- is very, very old news around here, and it's pretty discredited at this point.

While I don't like the concept, I wouldn't be surprised if Anno looped the whole NTE on its own. I have a nasty feeling it's all just fantasies of NGE!Yui going nuts of loneliness in Eva-01.

[Reichu]

You mean the Blake's mythology? If so, you've trumped my own arrogance and I must say, this is a thing. That some theory holds on by its own logic, it doesn't yet mean it's true.

I meant precisely what I said: "Kaworu's weird behavior toward Shinji has had an in-universe explanation for around a year". This makes no statement about how true it is. It makes no claims about it "holding up by its own logic" (whatever exactly you mean by that). It's exactly what it says on the tin. An explanation exists that treats the films as a self-contained narrative (albeit a highly intertextual one -- and note that intertextuality is a prolifically utilized meta concept in storytelling, not a banal plot device like the oft-proposed "looping") -- capable of justifying their existence without the narrative actually (in a non-meta sense) extending beyond the work. It requires no recourse to methodology as flawed as making a lineup of callbacks and saying "therefore, looping!" It sticks to the movies themselves and taps into the storytelling methods that Anno has always used as a basis for investigation and interpretation.

If the thread were not received well, then I would feel little confidence in strongly promoting its main theses; instead, I would have wondered what I did wrong and went back to the drawing board. (In fact, I never really left -- EVERYTHING in that thread is a work in progress.) But it was received well. If you have any actually specific issue with my ideas, then just go to the thread and bring them up. (But, you know, actually read everything first.) These vague objections of vague principle -- that for some reason have prompted you to insult my character -- aren't helpful.

[ErgoProxy]

I insulted your character your lack of empathy towards KurisuNimii. Only then I've read your second post (now merged) and so I can see no way out but to apologize you for this insult.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

What was this in-universe explanation? I hadn't really been reading up on Eva theories over the past year, mainly because I was distracted by the (eventually delayed) release of Shin Eva.

[Derantor]

@KurisuNimii: Well, the time loop theory certainly has its merits - the question is, is it an actual in-universe time-loop or a time-loop at the meta-level (what Reichu calles intertextuality)? I'd say its the latter. NTE is full of meta commentary like that. Take for example Asuka's lines at the end of Q: "You didn't come and help me" - this fits best if she was talking about the MP-Evas of EoE. Similarily, "Even after all this time, you are still the same old brat" sounds to me like she is talking about the real time that has passed: After 25 years of NGE, Shinji is still the same person. There are obviously explanations for those sentences that follow directly from the movie itself, so it isn't a case of "Either/Or" but of "This as well as that."

My personal stance is that unless the final movie explicitely rules out one explanation or the other, you are free to engage with what you have at whatever level that pleases you. Embrace the post-modernism of the work at hand: The author is dead, no explanation is better or worse than any other. He said as much: "Find your own answers." There is no absolute truth. That said, I am not a post-modernist myself. The better the evidence for your stance, the more likely I and others will accept it as something worthy of consideration.

So don't be discouraged. Build up your theory some more and find things that support it without ignoring stuff that goes against your theory. It doesn't matter if you convince everybody. Most people on here have been around for years - opinions were made up a long time ago, and much time was spent on supporting and defending those opinions. It's hard to join a discourse that has already taken place for so long. That said, at the end of the day, they are all opinions, not absolute truth. People just don't say it all the time, because it gets annoying to guard your language all the time, that's why they come around as harsher as they actually are.

Edit: Also, many discussions were done to death already. A certain tiredness has set in, so don't take it personally when people brush you off. It really has got nothing to do with you personally.

[ShinjiStranglesAsuka]

Also, many discussions were done to death already. A certain tiredness has set in, so don't take it personally when people brush you off. It really has got nothing to do with you personally.

Indeed. I hope OP doesn't take offense.

My opinion is that in a series where your actions have consequences and where even the third movie emphasize on the fact that you can't redo time, a timeloop/sequel theory would cheapen the entirety of the Rebuilds. So I personally don't want any timeloop or sequel theories to be true.

The only pillar holding up those theories is Kaworu & his mysterious lines, but they're too vague to really tanalyze in depth at the moment.

[BlueBasilisk]

^Mhmm, and this Kaworu is significantly different from his 'predecessor' in NGE in many respects. In some ways his personality is almost inverted. Personally I feel that if he'd really lived through the events of the anime he'd know better than to trust any version of Seele again. And I share your feelings on the overall implications of a temporal reset.

Edit: Also, many discussions were done to death already. A certain tiredness has set in, so don't take it personally when people brush you off. It really has got nothing to do with you personally.

Yeah, loop theory is really old as fandom discourse goes. It was already a couple years old when I joined the fandom! It's kinda hard to get a foothold in Eva discussion if you're coming into it fresh because the fandom is old and a new person can't really be expected to read up on 10+ years of debates.

That said, if KurisuNimii feels like they can provide some new insight, they should go for it! You never know what a fresh perspective might bring.

[Blockio]

I feel that if he'd really lived through the events of the anime he'd know better than to trust any version of Seele again.

This is the one thing that was always on my mind in these debates but I could never put into words. Thank you for this gift

[Melkor]

If you're wondering what these in-universe explanations for Kaworu's behavior towards Shinji are, I can give you the short of it. Basically, the prevailing theory right now is that Shinji, Asuka, Mari, and Kaworu contain the the souls of the Four Adams, while Rei obviously contains the soul of Lilith. As young children, the five pilots pilots were brought to some place called the Artificial Evolution Laboratory, where they either had the souls of the Four Adams implanted into them or if they were already present, awakened within them. Afterwards, their memories of the Artificial Evolution Laboratory were erased, and the only one that still retains memories of the experience is Kaworu, and possibly Mari as well. When Kaworu says "this time", he could either be referring to his and Shinji's past lives as Adams, the time they spent at the Artificial Evolution Laboratory as children, or both. This is of course an extremely simplified version of the theory, but Reichu goes into much more depth and detail in her thread(s) on the subject.

[Blockio]

Melkor gave a pretty good rundown of the theory; full analysis leading to these conclusions can be found here

[Sailor Star Dust]

What was this in-universe explanation? I hadn't really been reading up on Eva theories over the past year, mainly because I was distracted by the (eventually delayed) release of Shin Eva.

The only ones I can think of is: 1) Kaworu and Shinji knew each other in the labs as kids and Shinji was memory wiped—I toted that idea back in the day, since it played off an idea in the Campus Apocalypse manga. and/or 2) Shinji and the others (minus Ayanami) are actually the Adam(s) reincarnated. Kaworu's (seemingly) the only one with awareness so he wishes to get close to Shinji.

Besides that, I've been out of the loop like you

[Settie]

Some issues i see with that is that Kaworu is an angel, and in NTE angel =/= adams and another is that that comes perilously close to the whole destiny trope that, as a filthy shonen weeb, i'd hate for eva to go down that road.

Kaworu is too single mindedly obssessed with Shinji for it to not be some sort of shenanigan behind it. Seele experimented with containing and perhaps controlling angels ( 5th angel i believe, the one Mari killed). Maybe Seele went with an emotional route to angel control rather than physical.

[Jurrasic]

Beat to death for certain. But the last time I was active on this forum it was still being fairly loudly both analyzed and shouted down, and I really don't believe the theory has been discredited.

Until Khara writing staff or Anno himself firmly state yes or no (assuming the final movie dosen't do so) there is far too many indicators that have not been adequately debunked as far as I am concerned.

I am not going to re-start the whole thing again, I am sure you guys are sick to death of it, but there are still fans who think an end of the "Dark Tower" storyline style (where the protagonist achieves his goal and all he ever wanted, only to find out his "reward" is to forget what he has already repeatedly done and do it all over again because he did it wrong and has done so previously each time, but this time he has the tools to finally do it right.) is what NGE's overarching concept is.

At least it looks like we will FINALLY get the chance to close it all out before the end of the year. I've had my kids grow up and go to university who were watching 1.11 and 2.22 with me waiting for this damn rebuild quadrilogy to complete!!

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Well, see, the Kaworu lines aren't enough to justify any sorta loop theory or time-bending stuff.

But the title "Thrice Upon a Time," on the other hand, referencing a book about a man who can send messages through time...

It'll be interesting to see how all of this wraps up, both canonically in the film, and how the fandom reacts to the presence (or absence) of certain plot elements. The forum will probably be a mess for a bit either way, but if I were a betting man I'd place money on there being substantially more backlash if time travel/loop theories were confirmed.

I've been trying to approach this film with a mind open to any ending, and genuinely wanting to be surprised by that ending. The discourse around Loop Theory kinda killed that possibility for me, seeing as how I will be prominently aware of it either way. (I usually don't care about spoilers, but I care about Shin Eva spoilers.) If Loop Theory is correct and the film had intended to surprise me with that, then that surprise will be ruled by the 10+ years of nonsense fan conjecture. (Loop Theory being proposed as early as 1.11 was always nonsense.) I will still be wowed by Anno's direction and presentation of the film, so my appreciation of the film won't be compromised, but now I gotta work harder at enjoying whatever surprises it throws at me. I will accomplish this by anticipating whatever backlash this film gets for its handing of fans' favorite conspiracy theories.

[Reichu]

But the title "Thrice Upon a Time," on the other hand, referencing a book about a man who can send messages through time...

I suggest a possible way for that element of the book to get worked into NTE over here. It's probably wrong but it's at least based on something.