Rebuild of Evangelion 1-3: Adams and other Speculation

[Giji Shinka]

I pretty much agree everything that you said.
Also, i'd say that Wunders original name is "Adams vessel" (Adams ship), and that Mark.06 Adam, Key of Nebuchadnezzar Adam, and Eva-13x2 Adam used to travel to earth. Mark.09 was the core, and got somehow transformed to an Eva unit.

Now that i think about it......Maybe "Eva-08" in 3.0 preview was the Adam that got fused with another Adam, and the end result was Eva-13?

As for the reason why Eva-01 is special unit is most likely because of Yui. (Yui had a halo in the flashback.....)

[Monk Ed]

Oh wow, I never thought of that before, but it makes sense -- Mark.09 is not an Adam at all, but instead the core of the Wunder turned into an Eva. And that explains why Mark.09 kept getting called the "Adams' Vessel".

How did I not see this before? It all makes sense now.

(What I used to think is that Mark.09 was an Adam, but also the Wunder's core, the logic being simply that any Adam can be shoved in there to power the Wunder.)

[Redhornet571]

(I apologize if I'm pulling on an old thread)

The idea that Evangelion Unit 13 is possibly 2 Adams fused together does make quite a bit of sense. It explains why it would have 2 halos instead of one, and maybe something weird happened in the fusion and the halos are behind the head instead of over it. It might also explain why the wings are different too. Yet another thing that could be explained is why it has two Spears of Longinus; if it was only one Adam then why would it matter if it needed 2 to initiate 4th Impact? Maybe 2 Adams in 1 being=need 2 spears in order to initiate an impact or else the power to do it is incomplete.

I always wondered, though, why the wings were actual objects protruding from the unit itself instead of streams of energy elevating into the sky like the Adams'.

The only thing that bugs this is that Mari refers to the unit as a "surviving Adams", meaning 1; not 2.

As for the argument on whether Unit 01 is an Adams or derived from Lilith, keep in mind that before the unit turned into the radiant giant in question, it absorbed a giant "Rei" into it as remnants of the angel and unit 00 but also Rei, who has said to contain DNA from Lilith, maybe meaning that it was made up of both Lilith and an Adams after the fusion. That also could be supported by the fact with Eva13 consuming the 12th Angel and also being a radiant giant but being more possibly an Adams than Unit 01 in that the object it consumed was 100% angelic. This idea though is more of a swing in the ball park, so it could be completely wrong.

[Signer]

Well, Eva-13 has 2 pilots, 2 pairs of arms and eyes and 2 halos. So idea of 2 Adams(es?) makes a lot of sense. But when EVA-01 awakened, it ate core of 1 angel. So, to awaken 2 Adamses 2 angels must be necessary... But I would rather think, that EVA-13 will eat eleventh angel in FINAL. Oh, wait - Kaworu is angel, so it all fits.

(I apologize if I'm pulling on an old thread)
The only thing that bugs this is that Mari refers to the unit as a "surviving Adams", meaning 1; not 2.

Does she really says that? I thought, that "Adams no ikinokori" may refer to either singular or plural.

[Redhornet571]

You're probably correct there; I didn't think of to check if that meant both.

And I also never thought of the Idea that Kaworu being another angel "consumed" into Eva13. That is a really good point.

[Giji Shinka]

^Yeah.

Also, 12th angel + 1st angel = 13th angel. (Something...? More logical it would be at least)

[Reichu]

Also, i'd say that Wunders original name is "Adams vessel" (Adams ship)

Since this was never corrected: "vessel" here means approximately "container", as for food or drink (or a soul). No relation to ships. Also note that Mark.09 is referred to as "Adams' vessel", not the Wunder. Mark.09, or whatever it originally was, is the thing that "contains Adams" -- whatever exactly the hell that means.

keep in mind that before the unit turned into the radiant giant in question, it absorbed a giant "Rei" into it as remnants of the angel and unit 00 but also Rei, who has said to contain DNA from Lilith

The "Rei has Lilith DNA" thing is fanon. Every official source (including 3.0 itself) says that Rei is a copy or clone of Yui, full stop. I think the "Lilith DNA" thing was made up to justify Rei's pigmentation, but since Lilith has bleach-white skin and (eventually) hair, I'm not sure how Yui/Lilith hybridization really solves anything.

From another thread, but asked here as well, I think:

Again, did she really say "one"?

Very, very few standard Japanese nouns convey any concept of number, ikinokori among them. (This is as opposed to a counter-type noun, like futari -- two people -- or sanbiki -- three cute furry mammals.) When translating into English you have to make a commitment to "singular" or "plural", and it probably shouldn't come as a surprise why singular was settled upon.

[Koritsuyuutsu]

the blood trail on the Moon comes from Second Impact : when it was interrupted, a giant spurt of blood erupted for the place of 2I, which ejected one of the ADAMs and its spear(the one that would become Mark.06 and its LoC) against the Moon.

So, hold up, Mk. 06 is this likely to be third ("the third one") Adam? The fact that he's calling it the third one either suggests it's Kaworu from the second loop, turned into an Adam for the third loop, or it's the third Kaworu, which means the fourth Adam. Anyway, Unit-13 is named by Mari as one of the 'surviving Adams', which makes Unit-13 being one of the Adams almost completely canon too.

Mk. 06 was decapitated by Mk. 09 because Rei was 'ordered to' do it, the 12th Angel came out of its head, which then turned into a huge fetus, shrinked into a small sphere (its core?), and was either eaten or just killed by Unit-13, who is an Adam just like Mk. 06 would be. When Rei says she was 'ordered to' do it, you could say that the 12th Angel was placed in there by SEELE/NERV in order to quickly move plans ahead before Kaworu realizes what's going on. The way she quickly does this at the side also points to that.

Taking a step back, why was Mk. 06 made in the first place? And who organized for it to be made? SEELE did. Gendo and Fuyuutsuki had no idea what was going on over on the moon in 2.0. So perhaps now, as it seems Gendo has full control over SEELE (and kills them?), he carries out his scenario with Unit-13, when before, SEELE planned to carry out their scenario with Mk. 06. With Rei taking care of Mk. 06 by decapitating it, this removed this issue. The only thing that I don't get at all is why it's supposedly 'autonomous'.

If this is correct, then you could say that every Adam is as useful as each other in using them to create an Impact, and carry out whatever scenario. Mk. 06 and Unit-13 were both Adams that were used to try to carry out a scenario. WILLE would be the ones who are trying to eradicate all of the Adams to render causing an impact (and then the creation of another loop) impossible. Problem is that in 3.0, Kaworu just slipped out of WILLE's fingers by jumping through Guf before it closed. So maybe SEELE/Gendo's last resort if they run out of Adams is to just create more loops with more Adams and use them to try and complete the scenario again; if this is true, then SEELE/Gendo will have benefited from Kaworu jumping through Guf in 3.0.

I could go even further and link this to the Failures of Infinity. This could be a very big stretch, but Mk. 06 was decapitated similarly to how all of the Failures of Infinity are seen decapitated. If Mk. 06 is an Adam, then could this suggest the possibility that all of the Failures of Infinity were once Adams; although, I would have no idea how they got there. The 4.0 preview shows what we can assume is a double entry plug (like Unit-13) killing loads of them, and then jumping into what appears to be thousands more. If this is true, then this makes sense; they are eliminating every Adam that can be used to create an Impact and more loops - more loops means more Adams (Question is, how do SEELE/Gendo utilize these new Adams that are created in Kaworu making another loop? They're in another loop aren't they? Maybe this can be explained by the Keel = Gendo stuff that was mentioned earlier? )

This would make 4.0 out to be about the final war between millions of Adams and WILLE or something As for the Vessel of Adams (formerly Mk. 09), it might have been designed to collect Adams? Through decapitating them? What's the most likely explanation that we have so far to what the Failures of Infinity and Vessel of Adams are? Kind of grabbing at the air here I'm off till tomorrow evening.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Koritsuyuutsu: I moved your post to this appropriate topic. :)

Please read and reply to this thread if you want to discuss the Adams = 4 Eva units theory, okay?

[Koritsuyuutsu]

Koritsuyuutsu: I moved your post to this appropriate topic. :)

Please read and reply to this thread if you want to discuss the Adams = 4 Eva units theory, okay?

Oh, sure thing. Thanks.
http://forum.evageeks.org/post/705235/A-Loop-Theory-How-it-works/#705235
That's the thread I've been posting in, just for people not familiar with what I'm talking about when I mentions loops

[ElMariachi]

@ Koritsuyuutsu : Woah, slow down, you're mixing many things :

So, hold up, Mk. 06 is this likely to be third ("the third one") Adam? The fact that he's calling it the third one either suggests it's Kaworu from the second loop, turned into an Adam for the third loop, or it's the third Kaworu, which means the fourth Adam. Anyway, Unit-13 is named by Mari as one of the 'surviving Adams', which makes Unit-13 being one of the Adams almost completely canon too.

It's all but stated that Mark.06(or rather the giant in the Moon that would be armored and converted into the Mark.06) was one of the four ADAMs, but it's never specified which of the four it is.
When Kaworu talk about "the Third again", he's talking about Shinji, the Third Boy(his codename as an Eva pilot)

Mk. 06 was decapitated by Mk. 09 because Rei was 'ordered to' do it, the 12th Angel came out of its head, which then turned into a huge fetus, shrinked into a small sphere (its core?), and was either eaten or just killed by Unit-13, who is an Adam just like Mk. 06 would be. When Rei says she was 'ordered to' do it, you could say that the 12th Angel was placed in there by SEELE/NERV in order to quickly move plans ahead before Kaworu realizes what's going on. The way she quickly does this at the side also points to that.

By the time Rei Q decapitated it, there wasn't any Mark.06 anymore, if you look closely the armor is empty save for the 12th Angel struggling to get out of the armor, Rei Q was ordered to decapitate it to ease the 12th Angel's escape.

Now we don't know how the 12th Angel ended here, since it's inside the Mark.06, which is fuse to the neck stump of Lilith's cadaver, my personal theory(so to take with a grain of salt ofc) is that 14 years ago the 12th Angel managed to fuse and possess Mark.06 and used it to reach Lilith's Chamber without triggering the self-destruct mechanism(like Zeruel tried to do by absorbing EVA-00), and this time managed to reach her and start Third Impact, and everything we saw of the surrounding landscape in Q comes from that event.
Fortunately, it was stopped before completion by another Eva pierced the Mark.06-12th Angel-Lilith amalgamation with the two spears, and a big seal was placed on the chamber.

The trick is that to carry out HIP, you don't just need an ADAM(or whatever EVA-01 is in NTE) and an Impact Trigger, the maximum you can obtain is the pseudo-evolution, when the Eva becomes red and throw eyebeams like in 2.0. To make it transcend that phase and fully awake, it needs to consume an Angel, that's why SEELE didn't touched Lilith's cadaver for the past 14 years : it served as a makeshift container until they finish to transform another ADAM into an Evangelion unit and send it to Lilith's Chamber to free the Angel, absorb it, Awake and start Fourth Impact and Instrumentality with the spears.

But I'm sure that Kaworu too knew that the 12th Angel would be down there : "repairing" the world imply some terraforming of the whole planet, and the spears don't have that kind of power, they are just control rods for Seeds of Life and awakened Evas, only an Impact from a SoL or an awakened Eva can do that. The only thing that was wrong in Kaworu's plan is that the Cassius spears supposed to be impaling Mark.06 somehow morphed into a Longinus.

Taking a step back, why was Mk. 06 made in the first place? And who organized for it to be made? SEELE did. Gendo and Fuyuutsuki had no idea what was going on over on the moon in 2.0. So perhaps now, as it seems Gendo has full control over SEELE (and kills them?), he carries out his scenario with Unit-13, when before, SEELE planned to carry out their scenario with Mk. 06. With Rei taking care of Mk. 06 by decapitating it, this removed this issue. The only thing that I don't get at all is why it's supposedly 'autonomous'.

That's what happened yes, except that in 3.0 SEELE thought that Gendo was carrying their scenario, and let him kill them so their souls could be collected by Instrumentality, while Gendo actually tricked them with the spears so Kaworu would sacrifice himself to stop Forth Impact and let WILLE stop it.

As for why Mark.06 was rendered autonomous, we don't know, SEELE probably had their reason to do that, but in any case it may had saved Kaworu's life when the 12th Angel possessed the Eva 14 years ago.

If this is correct, then you could say that every Adam is as useful as each other in using them to create an Impact, and carry out whatever scenario. Mk. 06 and Unit-13 were both Adams that were used to try to carry out a scenario. WILLE would be the ones who are trying to eradicate all of the Adams to render causing an impact (and then the creation of another loop) impossible. Problem is that in 3.0, Kaworu just slipped out of WILLE's fingers by jumping through Guf before it closed. So maybe SEELE/Gendo's last resort if they run out of Adams is to just create more loops with more Adams and use them to try and complete the scenario again; if this is true, then SEELE/Gendo will have benefited from Kaworu jumping through Guf in 3.0.

3.0 made it clear that any ADAM can do the trick, that's why each loop would made the situation more complicated for mankind if it adds an ADAM each time : that means more spare ADAMs for SEELE to use and try to complete the HIP.
Now for the loop, so far if they exists, no one except Kaworu showed any behavior suggesting that they know about it : WILLE wanted to stop Fourth Impact and no one talked about preventing him to reach the Door of Guf and go back in time.
Gendo might had discovered it, and used that knowledge to double-cross Kaworu with the spears, but that's pure speculation.

I could go even further and link this to the Failures of Infinity. This could be a very big stretch, but Mk. 06 was decapitated similarly to how all of the Failures of Infinity are seen decapitated. If Mk. 06 is an Adam, then could this suggest the possibility that all of the Failures of Infinity were once Adams; although, I would have no idea how they got there. The 4.0 preview shows what we can assume is a double entry plug (like Unit-13) killing loads of them, and then jumping into what appears to be thousands more.
Snip

The FoIs and what you see in the preview are two different things : the FoIs are being created during Third Impact that were apparently "killed" and turned into core material when it was stopped, besides they are all at EVA-01's image(their chest-plate armor is the same as EVA-01's very characteristic one).
The green Evas you see in the preview are Mass Produced Evanganlion at Mark.06's image if the preview is to be believed. You can see transport wagons, weapons crates and armor gauntlets in neo-NERV's assembly line in 3.0 :

SPOILER: Show

[wkimg]File:Eva3-33 C0619A hands.jpg[/wkimg]

So far it's unknown how neo-NERV managed to build so much of them, especially in light of how much resources and energy are needed to build and maintain just one. Maybe it's tied to the strange structure inside the Chamber of Guf we glimpsed during Fourth Impact and that Gendo and Fuyu seemingly rejoined.[/spoiler]

[Jinroh]

Wasn't Eva 13 created to accomplish what Mark.06 eventually didn't do? I always got that impression. Maybe its original goal was to defeat the 12th angel and then start a custom Seele impact, but things didn't go as planned (probably because of Gendo?)

[ElMariachi]

^
Yes, EVA-13 is clearly the replacement for Mark.06, although we don't know enough of the details of SEELE's original plan with it and how it ended irremediably wrecked(well, it clearly has something to do with the 12th Angel, but we don't know if it ending inside Mark.06 was part of the ritual or just the Angel which managed to possess the Eva, Bardiel-style)

[wiser3754]

If already speculated, please reply and let it be.

Would anyone agree that EVA-13, a surviving ADAM, had been contained in storage before the 4th angel and it's successors made landfall in Tokyo-3, hinting at the fact that Mistato's claim to Shinji that Lilith was the target was false when it fact the Angels were after the surviving ADAM?

Why do I speculate this you ask? When the 12th Angel is released from the Mark.06 it wastes no time seeking out the ADAM from which the 12th Angel is easily able to discover masquerading underneath the armour of EVA-13. Then again, maybe the Lances EVA-13 was holding may have been a dead give away.

Being a stone left unturned in the series, we never saw what would have happened had an Angel made contact with ADAM. In 3.0, now we know.

[ElMariachi]

^
It's doubtful that the ADAM that would become EVA-13 was stored in NERV all along : SEELE always kept their cards very close, having a very limited trust on Gendo even in 1.0, so I don't see them trusting to him their ADAM. Besides if they already had one, why take all the hassle build a base on the freakin' Moon and send an Eva armor in space to armor the ADAM on it if they already have one in Earth, just take Kaworu, put him on a shuttle for Earth and make him wait in whatever base where the ADAM is stored that the armoring is finished!

As for the Angels not targeting Lilith, here again it's doubtful : first, why wouldn't they try to reach Lilith? The 12th Angel was fused with her, meaning that it was their objective. Also Third Impact didn't started when the 12th Angel possessed Mark.06, an ADAM, but when it reached Lilith and fused with her. It seems that when Second Impact stopped, the ADAMs entered a state of "clinical death", where they can't trigger an Impact anymore, but need to absorb an Angel's Fruit of Life to awake again and continue their work, that's probably what SEELE wanted to do with mark.06 before everything goes to hell, and that's precisely what happened with EVA-13.

As for why it targeted EVA-13 just after being freed from Mark.06, it's simple : their instinct is to try to reach the nearest Seed of Life, Mark.06 was completely destroyed, Lilith just exploded, leaving only EVA-13. Also, after EVA-13 removes the spears, you can see that the "cross" where its folded arms were starts glowing red, it's possible that it indicated EVA-13 emitting a "baiting signal" for the 12th Angel, and later it shrank it to a bite-sized core so EVA-13 can eat it and Awake :

SPOILER: Show

[wkimg]File:Eva3-33 C1294 reireirei.jpg[/wkimg]

[airman4]

^
Yes, EVA-13 is clearly the replacement for Mark.06, although we don't know enough of the details of SEELE's original plan with it and how it ended irremediably wrecked(well, it clearly has something to do with the 12th Angel, but we don't know if it ending inside Mark.06 was part of the ritual or just the Angel which managed to possess the Eva, Bardiel-style)

So eva13 replaced by Neonerv the true evangelion wich was Mark -6 designed by Seele ???

I wonder what about the seele people at the end of 3.33 ? what will they do if they are still one working at those quarters

[wiser3754]

So eva13 replaced by Neonerv the true evangelion wich was Mark -6 designed by Seele ???

I wonder what about the seele people at the end of 3.33 ? what will they do if they are still one working at those quarters

SEELE is dead. Didn't you notice the monoliths turning grey/white while Fuyutsuki was shutting them down? Also, Gendo explicitly states that SEELE have also tasted the fruit of knowledge and cannot escape death to which he is returning them to.

[ElMariachi]

So eva13 replaced by Neonerv the true evangelion wich was Mark -6 designed by Seele ???

Yep, well since both Gendo and SEELE are in the same base now and that both Shinji and Kaworu are piloting it, EVA-13 is more of a collaborative project between neo-NERV and SEELE.

I wonder what about the seele people at the end of 3.33 ? what will they do if they are still one working at those quarters

The only remaining SEELE people in 3.0 (at least in neo-NERV's base) were Kaworu and the seven SEELE monoliths, by the end of the movie they are all dead, so Gendo is now the only master aboard.

If there are still people working for SEELE around the world, Gendo will surely take control of them, pretexting that WILLE's meddling aborted the HIP but that he's still here to carry out the scenario.

EDIT @ wiser3754 : more precisely, Gndo said that the monoliths could had lived forever if they wanted (in their monolith form) but that they aren't safe from death, meaning that they can be destroyed (like Fuyu did by shutting them off), supposedly Instrumentality was supposed to make them (and probably the rest of mankind) completely immortal : impossible to kill.

[airman4]

Sorry guys
I was meaning the people at seele , how to explain that
The people under the chief
I believe there is other people , other than kaworu and the monolith , no ?

If there are still people working for SEELE around the world, Gendo will surely take control of them, pretexting that WILLE's meddling aborted the HIP but that he's still here to carry out the scenario.

Yes , that those people i'm talking about , okay we never see them but i guess SEELE is similar to NERV with dudes and girls working there around

I'd love to see one of them , and see how they will react with neonerv stuff and all
That would be interesting since their chief are dead

[ElMariachi]

Except that they don't know that their chiefs are dead, or if they know, they don't know that it's because Gendo tricked everyone with the spears, they think it's because WILLE managed to stop them, and they also think that Gendo is still working toward the completion of SEELE's scenario!