Masturbating on top of a comatose body

[riffraff11235]

They wouldn't feel that way if they didn't know about it, which is the hypothetical posed.

The fact of the matter is Asuka did find out about it, and she did feel violated. I know these subjects have a high tendency to spawn these kinds of arguments, but could we please try to keep this about Eva, and not about the merits - or lack thereof - of raping people discretely?

[Atropos]

Changing the setting from Misato's apartment to the hospital room itself was a brilliant decision. It's terrifying to imagine people masturbating to you, but it's even worse to imagine them masturbating literally three feet away from you.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

The fact of the matter is Asuka did find out about it, and she did feel violated. I know these subjects have a high tendency to spawn these kinds of arguments, but could we please try to keep this about Eva, and not about the merits - or lack thereof - of raping people discretely?

Actually, I understand where Bryan is going here. It took me a while, but I decided to start thinking like him and I finally got it. Correct me if I'm wrong, Bryan; what you believe is that if somebody is raped/violated in any way and they don't know about it, it is okay because in their respective experience, it never happened. If it never happened, then there is nothing reprehensible about it. Right?

I think that's pretty foolish. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it, it still makes a sound.

[kuribo-04]

Please, is there anybody that wants to talk about why Shinji felt bad, why Asuka could forgive him, etc.?
I've read some crazy shit in this thread.

[Oenara]

Please, is there anybody that wants to talk about why Shinji felt bad, why Asuka could forgive him, etc.?
I've read some crazy shit in this thread.

Yeah, this thread badly needs a split (and a trigger warning). The past few pages have ping-ponged between insightful, thought-out meditations on Shinji’s mental state and the artistic construction of the viewer experience, and … males arguing about when and why rape is wrong.

[Atropos]

The general consensus is that rape is always wrong, but Bryan disagrees. No one has chosen to concede yet.

[kuribo-04]

I say the same again: Yes, this is a draft, and it wasn´t shown in the movie. Still, same Shinjey written by same Annow.

http://wiki.evageeks.org/Resources:End_of_Evangelion_Screenplays

It´s very interesting.

U know taht shitz gotten real in an EvaGeeks thread when people talk about the possibility of rape being legal. Pretty sad and creepy.

[NemZ]

This thread is a very special kind of fucked up. Surely we can do better than this, people.

Please, is there anybody that wants to talk about why Shinji felt bad, why Asuka could forgive him, etc.?

He should feel bad for behaving as a skeevy creeper perv and I have no idea whatsoever why she would forgive him for this, much less leaving her to die, blowing up the world and trying to murder her with his bare hands twice. Seriously, fuck that guy.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

Meh. If Asuka forgives him, she's got more empathy than we could possible measure. Shinji should damn well feel horrible; he used Asuka as a sex tool and runs away from anything he doesn't like. He's pretty much just wallowing around in self-pity.

[Bryan]

Actually, I understand where Bryan is going here. It took me a while, but I decided to start thinking like him and I finally got it. Correct me if I'm wrong, Bryan; what you believe is that if somebody is raped/violated in any way and they don't know about it, it is okay because in their respective experience, it never happened. If it never happened, then there is nothing reprehensible about it. Right?

I think that's pretty foolish. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it, it still makes a sound.

Pretty damn close. I think there is plenty reprehensible about it in regards to the person doing it. They should be ashamed of themselves for the reprehensible act. However, it's no worse for the person who it happened to because, exactly like you said, in their respective experience it never happened. So it's not really any different than if they had done it to a sex doll.

The general consensus is that rape is always wrong, but Bryan disagrees. No one has chosen to concede yet.

Um, no. I would never say rape is ok because as far I know, it's impossible to discreetly rape someone. But in a hypothetical situation where that were possible, then yeah I would be ok with it. The reason I brought up that hypothetical is because that's the only way rape would be comparable to masturbating in someone's presence.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

But in a hypothetical situation where that were possible, then yeah I would be OK with it. The reason I brought up that hypothetical is because that's the only way rape would be comparable to masturbating in someone's presence.

This is not how rape works. Please stop putting it into a hypothetical situation where it would be possible. It's insulting and disrespectful. Also, I will be furious if you ever compare a woman to a sex doll again. Some things you just don't do.

And TOPIC, please. I understand that I contributed to the massive rape tangent, but I think it should stop now.

[kuribo-04]

I think that the caress means that she forgives him. I mean, she was with him in Instrumentality, she could "feel his pain", and probably understand him. I mean, he´s 14 years old, surrounded by shit, and he has often showed that he is a good person. He also feels bad about what he has done. It´s not like he is an ugly perverted. He is something more...

[Bagheera]

Please, is there anybody that wants to talk about why Shinji felt bad, why Asuka could forgive him, etc.?

Oh, as to that: she forgives him because she understands him, knows his greatest sin (apart from the hospital scene, which doesn't particularly bother her) is giving up, and that most of the rest really isn't his fault. Moreover she knows how he feels, that he is his own worst critic, and that continuing to hate him won't do her any good since he's the only one around at the moment. So she gets over it and tries to choke down her disgust with his weakness as best she can so they can move on and try something new (i.e. learn to interact with one another without hurting each other all the time).

Um, no. I would never say rape is ok because as far I know, it's impossible to discreetly rape someone.

Not familiar with alcohol, I take it (to say nothing of GHB)?

[Bryan]

This is not how rape works. Please stop putting it into a hypothetical situation where it would be possible. It's insulting and disrespectful. Also, I will be furious if you ever compare a woman to a sex doll again. Some things you just don't do.

And TOPIC, please. I understand that I contributed to the massive rape tangent, but I think it should stop now.

Exactly, that is not how rape works which is why it is ridiculous to compare the situations. I wasn't the one who originally made the comparison you know. I didn't compare women to sex dolls either. The person could just as easily be a man and the sex doll could just as easily be a rock.

Not familiar with alcohol, I take it (to say nothing of GHB)?

Yeah, discreet isn't the word I'm looking for. I mean without affecting them. (which of course goes far beyond being discreet)

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

Oh, as to that: she forgives him because she understands him, knows his greatest sin (apart from the hospital scene, which doesn't particularly bother her) is giving up, and that most of the rest really isn't his fault. Moreover she knows how he feels, that he is his own worst critic, and that continuing to hate him won't do her any good since he's the only one around at the moment. So she gets over it and tries to choke down her disgust with his weakness as best she can so they can move on and try something new (i.e. learn to interact with one another without hurting each other all the time).

So, she's forgiving him out of necessity?

[kuribo-04]

Oh, as to that: she forgives him because she understands him, knows his greatest sin (apart from the hospital scene, which doesn't particularly bother her) is giving up, and that most of the rest really isn't his fault. Moreover she knows how he feels, that he is his own worst critic, and that continuing to hate him won't do her any good since he's the only one around at the moment. So she gets over it and tries to choke down her disgust with his weakness as best she can so they can move on and try something new (i.e. learn to interact with one another without hurting each other all the time).

But I don´t think that Asuka hated Shinji at all. She liked him. When she gets angry at him it´s often to (sorry, don´t know how to say this) "take his attention". Or because she wants him to "man up". And Shinji interprets this as "She hates me." I´m positive that these were Anno´s intentions.

Oh, and I had forgotten that the hospital scene doesn´t bother her THAT much. (But still she says her final line.)

[Bagheera]

Exactly, that is not how rape works which is why it is ridiculous to compare the situations.

I made the comparison because you made the claim that pretty much anything was okay if there are no consequences. The idea was to show how absurd that argument was, but I was unprepared for the extent of your derpishness and here we are.

My apologies to all for the thread for the derailment! I should have ignored him from the start.

So, she's forgiving him out of necessity?

Among many other reasons.

But I don´t think that Asuka hated Shinji at all. She liked him.

She had mixed feelings for him. Toward the end of the show she really, really hated him. We can take the fact she says this directly as our primary evidence, but the kitchen scene in EoE makes it clear beyond all doubt. Whatever she felt for him before was nothing but bitter ashes by that point.

When she gets angry at him it´s often to (sorry, don´t know how to say this) "take his attention". Or because she wants him to "man up". And Shinji interprets this as "She hates me." I´m positive that these were Anno´s intentions.

You can't be positive of that because Anno himself doesn't know his intentions completely. But with that aside his goal appears to have been to create realistic characters with complex relationships, and part of that involves having contradictory feelings for one another. So Shinji's attracted to Asuka even though he's also frightened of her, Asuka likes Shinji for what he could be (and occasionally is) but feels disgust for his weakness and indecisiveness, etc.

[Squigsquasher]

This thread is a very special kind of fucked up. Surely we can do better than this, people.



He should feel bad for behaving as a skeevy creeper perv and I have no idea whatsoever why she would forgive him for this, much less leaving her to die, blowing up the world and trying to murder her with his bare hands twice. Seriously, fuck that guy.

Let's be fair for a second.

"Leaving her to die"-Unit 01 was surrounded in hardened bakelite, genius. Unless you suggest that he uses a discarded toothpick to chip his way through several hundred tonnes of hardened, scalding-hot plastic, there wasn't an awful lot he could do. Unit 01 only emerged by the time it was too late. If Shinji had been able to save Asuka from the Mass Production Evangelions then he probably would have, or at least would have tried.

"blowing up the world"-Yeah, you try going through what Shinji went through (I don't just mean what happens on screen, I mean his whole miserable life) and do better. The poor kid was completely insane. The outcome was inevitable really.

"trying to murder her with his bare hands twice"-Once again, put yourself in his position. First time (which may or may not have actually happened) he's a complete wreck, and Asuka is being monstrously cruel. I can safely say, if I had been in his shoes, I would have strangled her too. Not because it was the right thing to do, but simply because I'm a flawed person, like the entire cast of NGE.

The second time...by this point there is absolutely no denying; he has completely lost his mind. Insane. Nuts. Crazy. Mad. Whatever sanity was left has trickled out of his ear. Quite frankly, the kindest thing you could do for him would be to shoot him in the back of the head and put the poor boy out of his misery. And I say this as a Shinji fan, in the kindest possible way. If I was him, I'd want to just die there and then.

Meh. If Asuka forgives him, she's got more empathy than we could possible measure. Shinji should damn well feel horrible; he used Asuka as a sex tool and runs away from anything he doesn't like. He's pretty much just wallowing around in self-pity.

And he does feel horrible. He's felt horrible for a long time before then. The hospital scene is just the last stage of Shinji's complete collapse into madness and despair. And I hardly see him "wallowing in self pity", he outright states that he doesn't think he deserves to live.

On another note, at least remember that he only jerks off. If he were really that much of a horrible, slimy pervert, he would have probably gone a lot further. He doesn't actually touch Asuka after accidentally dislodging her gown. I'm not saying what he did was acceptable by any means, but he could have done a lot, lot worse.

Of course, you could always do what I do and count End of Evangelion as non-canon.

[kuribo-04]

She had mixed feelings for him. Toward the end of the show she really, really hated him. We can take the fact she says this directly as our primary evidence, but the kitchen scene in EoE makes it clear beyond all doubt. Whatever she felt for him before was nothing but bitter ashes by that point.



You can't be positive of that because Anno himself doesn't know his intentions completely. But with that aside his goal appears to have been to create realistic characters with complex relationships, and part of that involves having contradictory feelings for one another. So Shinji's attracted to Asuka even though he's also frightened of her, Asuka likes Shinji for what he could be (and occasionally is) but feels disgust for his weakness and indecisiveness, etc.

Yes, you´re right about the realistic relationships, but that´s why I interpreted the kitchen scene in another way. It happens in Instrumentality, it´s not really happening. It shows the subconscious of the characters, and one of the things that Asuka feels in this moment is what we see in the kitchen. She also says that she wants him. And maybe the kitchen scene is what Shinji thinks that Asuka thinks of him. But really, I don´t want to analyze this scenes too much, because the whole film is very abstract. The only thing that I know is what I feel when I watch it. And I really want to belief that the ending shows us (like Shinji says in my signature) that life isn´t perfect, but that it´s still worth living with other people. And that Asuka, after having seen Shinji´s mind, can destroy that barrier that exists because of lack of communication, show some maturity and accept him (still stating that what he did was disgusting). I mean, Anno probably wanted to end Eva showing something positive. The man is capable of positive endings, and I think that he likes them. And he has moved on in real life.
But that is just how I see it. There are infinite answers.

The second time...by this point there is absolutely no denying; he has completely lost his mind. Insane. Nuts. Crazy. Mad. Whatever sanity was left has trickled out of his ear. Quite frankly, the kindest thing you could do for him would be to shoot him in the back of the head and put the poor boy out of his misery. And I say this as a Shinji fan, in the kindest possible way. If I was him, I'd want to just die there and then.

Of course, you could always do what I do and count End of Evangelion as non-canon.

I agree with you about Shinji, but not here. Why does everyone interpret this movie that bad? It´s a beautiful movie. It shows that Sihnji, even after all that shit, decides to live with other people. He is mad at the end, yes. But after Asuka´s caress, he realizes what is happening and begins to cry. Yes, the ending is not the super perfect ending that you´d find in a Disney movie, but we know that Anno wants us to think. Things CAN get better. And, really...Japan is destroyed? I ain´t give a fuck! The story is super abstract at this point anyways, what matters is Anno´s mind. And Anno thinks "It´s worth living." And he says it through Shinji, with the quote in my signature, in the scene that always sends shivers down my spine. I hope that I can be like Anno someday. I mean, I have many of his negative traits...

I´m addicted to EvaGeeks...I´m an otaku and Anno would hate me.

[Chuckman]

The whole film is structured around the same things happening. Shinji reaches for her, but only so far, and gives up, then responds with anger when he doesn't get what he wants handed to him. The order of events in the hospital scene, the strangulation scene, and the beach all resonate strongly with each other.

The specific way that she accepts him is important. Touching his face with her hand signifies she's putting her whole self out there. Hands are the key to all of it. (Hence masturbation, which makes for a really weird scene when he could have groped her or something and conveyed the same message and in fact made it more effective in delivering a jab to the audience)

As bizarre as it sounds, choking her (in the context of this symbolic framework -I don't mean that choking women is good unless they're into it (no really don't start arguing about this) under any circumstances) is preferable to masturbation. He's no longer keeping himself bottled up (contact only with himself) but his anger lets him reach past his fear and make contact with her. In return, she accepts him even though he hurts her.

@kuribo-04

I don't know why it's seen as so bleak either. From a certain point of view, End of Evangelion is a poetic, triumphant love story.

From a certain point of view.