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Postby Bagheera » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:51 pm

View Original PostBrainman wrote:So I don't mind it that Sadamoto would use the manga as an outlet to tweak that dynamic. Fair's fair. You might say the character story suffers because of it, but really writing for comics and manga is different than writing for a series (or a movie). There's actually room to polish these changes so we at the least understand them in context. The reason I don't extend that same clemency towards Rebuild is because I can actually imagine the movie taking out Asuka (and others) entirely without messing up the narrative. If you did that with the manga, you would see a lot of problems come up. When that happens I could only ever think "Nope, you screwed this up. Let's try going back and seeing where we went wrong here." In the manga at least there's a system and she's doing things without being so dependent on the other character's arcs.


What things? Even in the anime she doesn't get to do much until EoE. Heck, in some ways that's the entire point of her arc. She's superfluous, and NERV and SEELE make sure she's aware of that fact, and they hammer it home repeatedly. The nice thing about the series, though, is that she gets to grapple with that fact on her own -- that's her arc in the show, and P3II and the kitchen scene are her reaction to it.

In the manga she's still superfluous, but she never gets to come to terms with it or do anything about it. She's irrelevant both to the plot and as a character. It's not as bad as the NME is, of course, but it's still pretty bad. A lot of fans seem to be okay with that since it means she doesn't get traumatized to quite the same degree, but i still think it does her a disservice (and would likely make things worse for her in the long run). If she conquered her demons without getting speared? Great. Fantastic even! But if she doesn't get to do that, and on top of that gets rescued without having a chance to prove herself or come to terms with her role and her past . . . well, what's the point?
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
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Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Brainman » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:31 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:What things? Even in the anime she doesn't get to do much until EoE. Heck, in some ways that's the entire point of her arc. She's superfluous, and NERV and SEELE make sure she's aware of that fact, and they hammer it home repeatedly.


Well the way I always saw it is that there's two stories going on in Evangelion; the character story and the story, uh, story. The anime and even EoE seemed more concerned with the character story in the end. There's things about moons, secret societies, and cosmic stuff, but none of that ever seemed to matter much to the main character. Hell, Shinji doesn't even learn much about any of it beyond the fact that his dad has something to do with it. So when you look at Shinji's personal journey as being the main story, then the rest of that is mostly just the frame work for the universe. None of it seems to concern Shinji in particular other than it being his circumstance. When Kawrou was going on about AT Fields and Lillim and such, Shinji's reaction was only "I don't know what you're even talking about!" To him, all he knew was his friend was betraying him.

So what does Asuka have to do with the character side of the story? Plenty! In both manga and anime she's a key element that openly confronts him. Not just providing him an immediate obstacle to overcome, but she's someone who is actively changing his environment. In both continuities, she is a somewhat unwelcomed change that barges into his life and starts rearranging everything. And not only that, but she's there to stay. It's not enough to have Shinji get lectures from people older than him and it's certainly not enough for him to hold Rei by the hand and lead her around. No, now there's someone who pushes back. She's the confusing element that propels him ahead one moment then puts him in the back row the next. She's a tangled mess that he's not even sure if he's supposed to unravel. Point is, she's as much an obstacle for him in terms of his personal growth as the angels are. And that to me is the role of Asuka in the story. And while they arguably make for a terrible couple, to me, that's what makes them so much fun. In fiction, I'd rather see a ship go through a horrible storm than make it to port without incident.

So in that sense, she's not only important to the story, she's crucial.

And while it's in a somewhat diluted form in the manga, it still follows the same basic formula. She still barges into his life and is still confronting him throughout. It still functions. And that's where I draw the line with Rebuild. Because in 2.0 Asuka barges into his life and then...where'd she go? Oh, there she is in the corner, playing tetris while shooting jealous eyes at Rei. Hm.

No, it just doesn't ring the same. Now she's unimportant. Because without the entanglement she really is an unnecessary element. Now she's just the "red one" who needs a sort of self sacrifice arc to turn relevant again. The Israphel fight was important not just because it looked fancy. It's because it established both characters and how they react to one another. And that to me was always more relevant than what was going on with the moon and Seele.
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:48 pm

View Original PostBrainman wrote:And while it's in a somewhat diluted form in the manga, it still follows the same basic formula. She still barges into his life and is still confronting him throughout. It still functions. And that's where I draw the line with Rebuild. Because in 2.0 Asuka barges into his life and then...where'd she go? Oh, there she is in the corner, playing tetris while shooting jealous eyes at Rei. Hm.


I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I don't see an appreciable difference between what you describe here and what we see in the manga. Yeah, it goes through the motions at first, but it fizzles out pretty hard about midway through. What is she doing that's relevant at the end? Fighting the MPEs, sure, but not effectively. It doesn't mean anything -- she's just killing time until Shinji shows up to take over and actually advance the plot. Contrast with EoE, where that fight meant something pretty serious to her and was resolved without any input whatsoever from Shinji. Her plot, her resolution. And it ultimately wound up having a pretty huge effect on him (it arguably resulted in Rei coming to him, since his scream upon seeing Asuka's remains is what prompted Rei to do her thing).

I don't think the NME plot is really relevant in this context. It's a separate beast from both anime and manga, and moreover it isn't finished. Also, we have a forum with a thread devoted to bitching about NME, so let's leave it there and not pollute the rest of the forums with OT discussions.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Brainman » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:04 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I don't see an appreciable difference between what you describe here and what we see in the manga. Yeah, it goes through the motions at first, but it fizzles out pretty hard about midway through. What is she doing that's relevant at the end?


I should note that I'm not making the case that the manga is better than the anime or that it works out perfectly. It obviously doesn't. But I don't believe the manga deserves the amount of bashing it receives from the community (while Rebuild enjoys such fame, despite being guilty of many of the same offenses). To me, the manga is structured better than NME (so far at least). Character relations are established and more importantly supported by their interactions. I find myself saying "yeah right" a lot during that other film in regards to how characters acted.

And at least they danced!

For me personally, that's such a pivotal event in the early section of the show that the idea of excluding it entirely is just...not right.
Why do they even want the Loc-Nar? All it does is melt you.

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Postby esselfortium » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:19 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I don't see an appreciable difference between what you describe here and what we see in the manga. Yeah, it goes through the motions at first, but it fizzles out pretty hard about midway through. What is she doing that's relevant at the end? Fighting the MPEs, sure, but not effectively. It doesn't mean anything -- she's just killing time until Shinji shows up to take over and actually advance the plot. Contrast with EoE, where that fight meant something pretty serious to her and was resolved without any input whatsoever from Shinji. Her plot, her resolution. And it ultimately wound up having a pretty huge effect on him (it arguably resulted in Rei coming to him, since his scream upon seeing Asuka's remains is what prompted Rei to do her thing).

Ah, but it wasn't really resolved without input from Shinji, in EoE. The film made a note of continually juxtaposing her fight alone, through great success and eventually great failure, with Shinji's complete and total inaction.

She says herself that she expects him to be there, and it's his inability to show up at that point so crucial in her life that dooms her to evisceration. It has a huge effect on him not just because she's dead, but because there's no way he can deny that he shoulders some of the blame for it happening.

In both versions of the story, Shinji is late, she does her damndest to go it alone, and she can't defeat such overwhelming odds all by herself.

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Postby Azathoth » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:27 pm

yeah, good thing in the manga she doesn't need to because the towering pillar of Japanese masculinity is there to rescue her

The funny bit is that, as colossally dull as the "Shinji asspulls some unrealistic confidence and agency and impossibly saves some bitch or other before getting hijacked himself for apocalypse nonsense" plot point is, Sadamoto still couldn't think of it before Anno
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Postby Brainman » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:27 pm

^
I might add also that, while totally superfluous, the manga version Eva Series seem to have researched the speed upgrade. And even the "Mighty Shinji" isn't fairing well in terms of actually putting them down for good.

I think maybe the Good+ ending would involve both of them fighting the Eva Series together. Instead it seems Shinji shows up and now Asuka is just sitting on her backside while screaming "Shinji! Shinji!"

That's pretty annoying. But maybe there's still time. Sappier things have happened. Maybe he can scream "grab my hand!" and blow the Eva Series up with laser eyes.
Last edited by Brainman on Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby symbv » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:28 pm

View Original PostBrainman wrote: And Sadamoto has freely admitted that he's way in love with Rei and doesn't really understand Asuka.

Would be great if you could share the source about this interesting remark by Sadamoto.
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Postby Brainman » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:30 pm

View Original Postsymbv wrote:Would be great if you could share the source about this interesting remark by Sadamoto.


Oh, it was in an interview that I no longer have the link for. He basically describes what about Rei he finds special. The air of delicate mystery and all that. But heck, I'll post it if I can find it (which is doubtful).

Again, it's not that he's out to get Asuka. He just really really likes Rei.
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Postby symbv » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:42 pm

Just want to double check if there is that statement comes with some context and if there is anything "lost in translation", and when he said that. It is quite something for Sadamoto to say he does not understand Asuka when he is one of the earliest involved in the creation of Evangelion.
I never thought I would come back to Evangelion after EoE,
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Postby Brainman » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:49 pm

View Original Postsymbv wrote:Just want to double check if there is that statement comes with some context and if there is anything "lost in translation", and when he said that. It is quite something for Sadamoto to say he does not understand Asuka when he is one of the earliest involved in the creation of Evangelion.


Well I wish I could find it, because it's interesting. But basically it seemed he meant it in terms of connecting with the character.
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:51 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Ah, but it wasn't really resolved without input from Shinji, in EoE. The film made a note of continually juxtaposing her fight alone, through great success and eventually great failure, with Shinji's complete and total inaction.


So, she fights alone with Shinji's complete and total inaction, and that somehow constitutes input from Shinji? That's . . . a way of looking at it, I suppose.

She says herself that she expects him to be there, and it's his inability to show up at that point so crucial in her life that dooms her to evisceration. It has a huge effect on him not just because she's dead, but because there's no way he can deny that he shoulders some of the blame for it happening.


Meh. He might feel that way (and understandably so), but Yui's indifference and the bakelite say "not so much." Would he have done something if he could have? It's an interesting question. I'm honestly not sure.

In both versions of the story, Shinji is late, she does her damndest to go it alone, and she can't defeat such overwhelming odds all by herself.


The difference being that it meant something in one version and meant bupkiss in the other.

View Original PostBrainman wrote:Well I wish I could find it, because it's interesting. But basically it seemed he meant it in terms of connecting with the character.


The Japanese audience does seem to have trouble connecting with Asuka. Which is funny, since she's supposedly Anno's favorite.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Brainman » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:01 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:The Japanese audience does seem to have trouble connecting with Asuka. Which is funny, since she's supposedly Anno's favorite.


It's true. But then, I don't think Anno sees eye to eye with many of his fans. In fact, he seems confrontational about it most of the time in interviews. And while I can see Asuka being his favorite, the comment where he says it out loud sounds like it might have been facetious ("I like Asuka. She's cute." Oh, ok.) In any case, Asuka most certainly has more traction in the west along with Mistato. And Anno had a comment about this too...
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Postby KingXanaduu » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:03 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:
The difference being that it meant something in one version and meant bupkiss in the other.


Like Rebuild, there are still some stages to be set, so there's no way to tell if it's truly "bupkiss", who knows what's to expect with this version of Pre-3I.

But, I would agree with you. The EoE version did show that Asuka is a fully capable warrior that can hold herself well on her own, and even though she was beaten, it still was her crowning moment and realization.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Postby Bagheera » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:45 pm

View Original PostBrainman wrote:It's true. But then, I don't think Anno sees eye to eye with many of his fans. In fact, he seems confrontational about it most of the time in interviews. And while I can see Asuka being his favorite, the comment where he says it out loud sounds like it might have been facetious ("I like Asuka. She's cute." Oh, ok.) In any case, Asuka most certainly has more traction in the west along with Mistato. And Anno had a comment about this too...


Facetious? Are you suggesting Asuka is not cute? :asuka_miffed:
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby KingXanaduu » Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:06 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Facetious? Are you suggesting Asuka is not cute? :asuka_miffed:


I think that statement would depend on the circumstance.
This:

Image

Compared to this:

Image


You be the judge.
Last edited by KingXanaduu on Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"You're na�ve, Cecil. Even knowing betrayal and despair, you would depend on the whims of others?" - Golbez
---------------------------------------
Sephiroth: "Do you miss the Light?"
Golbez: "Hmph...I merely have duties to fulfill."
Sephiroth: "Too close to the brightness, and you may get scorched."
Golbz:.............
Golbez: Your loss can strengthen you.

"NGE Shinji is broken, Manga Shinji is an asshole, Rebuild Shinji is an idiot. Which is best? Uh, can I get some other options? All of these really suck." -Bagheera

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Postby EvangelionFan » Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:08 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:asuka-cute.jpg


Incoming bait-and-switch!

...

Also: tangent much?
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Postby KnightmareX13 » Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:12 pm

Is anyone else unable to see the second image?
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Postby Bagheera » Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:19 pm

View Original Postxanderkh wrote:You be the judge.


Well, we already knew she was equal parts cute and awesome. :lol:
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:07 am

I know the uber-bitchfight is where the manga has recently and belatedly given us another point of comparison for Asuka; but that's just Sadamoto being boxed in by circumstances. For me, the fact that manga!Asuka acts nothing like her prototype when she and Shinji are left to spend the night alone together before the Israfel fight that seals the deal.

View Original PostBrainman wrote:I think maybe the Good+ ending would involve both of them fighting the Eva Series together. ... That's pretty annoying. But maybe there's still time.
You're a couple of stages behind, it seems.
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