Once more with feeling -- Yui is an evil bitch

[NemZ]

This is almost entirely off-topic, but you guys drug me into this bullshit again for no good reason, so just deal with it.

And to answer your question, because they show an appalling lack of compassion for someone in Shinji's situation, which is especially disappointing given your own experiences. You can relate to him more than most, but instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt and sympathizing with him you condemn him.

Oh come on now, my vague story is nothing THAT dramatic. Nobody died or anything... I was just too busy selfishly wallowing in melodrama while life went on for everybody else, and things were worse then they needed to be because of it. That's all.

My problems with EoEShinji are twofold:

1. I don't believe his characterization falls believably in line with where the series was going. Yes he should be somewhat down, but acting the way he does seems as though he's completely forgotten all the things he's learned about himself, responsibility and the need to make hard choices in the entire show.

2. I'm not interested in sympathy, but rather going deeper into actual empathy. If I put myself in his place with all the same pressures and failings (assuming this still actually qualifies as 'me') it's possible I'd fuck it up just like he did, sure... and if so, I'd be just as hard on myself as I am on Shinji now.

Most people want to go into peacemaker/caregiver mode and smooth things out, but that's just bullshit motivated by the feeling that if they were in his place they'd want someone else to take that burden of guilt away so they could escape back into the status quo. The difference is that if you know deep down that it really is your fault all those pleasant, trite little forgivenesses are hollow and cruel. In a situation like that taking the easy way out and accepting those cheap forgivenesses is like betraying all the people you hurt yet again, just compounding your guilt every day you go on pretending that everything is okay again.

Kaji in the manga sums it all up very nicely: "We don't deserve to be happy... and Shinji, neither do you."

And to bring it back around to the topic, neither does Yui, which might in fact be part of her reasoning behind accepting her self-imposed exile. The things she has done, even if they were aimed at the greater good, are simply too monstrous to forgive.

[Bagheera]

Well, if it's going to be this way, then I have no choice... I've always wanted to do one of these.

Yui satisfying expectations

Oh dear, that's not nice.

But Yui ran away, so I can make my own!

This is almost entirely off-topic, but you guys drug me into this bullshit again for no good reason, so just deal with it.

Alright, alright. I apologize.

My problems with EoEShinji are twofold:

1. I don't believe his characterization falls believably in line with where the series was going. Yes he should be somewhat down, but acting the way he does seems as though he's completely forgotten all the things he's learned about himself, responsibility and the need to make hard choices in the entire show.

Pre-Kaworu, that's a reasonable take. Post-Kaworu, I'm not so sure.

Most people want to go into peacemaker/caregiver mode and smooth things out, but that's just bullshit motivated by the feeling that if they were in his place they'd want someone else to take that burden of guilt away so they could escape back into the status quo. The difference is that if you know deep down that it really is your fault all those pleasant, trite little forgivenesses are hollow and cruel. In a situation like that taking the easy way out and accepting those cheap forgivenesses is like betraying all the people you hurt yet again, just compounding your guilt every day you go on pretending that everything is okay again.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. If one accepts the depth of Shinji's depression as presented in EoE there's really nothing to forgive; if not, the whole setup is invalid and forgiveness is moot. Either way the above seems to be a bit off-base.

Kaji in the manga sums it all up very nicely: "We don't deserve to be happy... and Shinji, neither do you."

Except that's bullshit, particularly at that time. Shinji hadn't done anything wrong at that point.

And to bring it back around to the topic, neither does Yui, which might in fact be part of her reasoning behind accepting her self-imposed exile. The things she has done, even if they were aimed at the greater good, are simply too monstrous to forgive.

But again, bullshit. If one really feels that way he should do what he can to justify his existence by bringing happiness to others. Wallowing in misery because he "deserves" it is stupid (hell, that's the whole damn point of NGE to begin with). She's running away, damn it.

[Fazmotron]

Well, if it's going to be this way, then I have no choice... I've always wanted to do one of these.

Yui satisfying expectations

Dammit Reichu, you make me miss you more everyday.

[Azathoth]

Yui satisfying expectations

That's avatar material right there - although probably not for me...

(Are Az, Tines, and I essentially on the same page? I'm not sure about anything right now. I need some real sleep.)

I don't think Yui's evil or insane. She doesn't really live up to most standards of human behavior by leaving Shinji at the end, but it's not clear to me that, in her condition, living up to standards of human behavior is something to be concerned with.

[Reichu]

NemZ: It was just a bit of (ineffective) "targeted rhetoric" that ribbed on you a little at the same time. I thought you'd be able to "roll with the punch", but if not -- sorry? Now, before anybody have to say the "t" word, can we drop the Shinji thing? :p

Oh dear, that's not nice.

Precisely. (Just in case you weren't familiar; never know.)

But Yui ran away

I'm not convinced of this, and I doubt anyone can convince you at this point. I'd like it if you had a higher or at least less vitriolic opinion of Yui, but I guess all I can hope for is that you let what people have said percolate over time. With some effort, you may yet be able to find a comfortable personal solution for why Yui leaves at the end that's in keeping with her pre-established personality and motives.

[Bagheera]

NemZ: It was just a bit of (ineffective) "targeted rhetoric" that ribbed on you a little at the same time. I thought you'd be able to "roll with the punch", but if not -- sorry? Now, before anybody have to say the "t" word, can we drop the Shinji thing? :p

That is a good idea.

Precisely. (Just in case you weren't familiar; never know.)

Aw, all the videos have been removed! But we still have YouTube.

I'm not convinced of this, and I doubt anyone can convince you at this point. I'd like it if you had a higher or at least less vitriolic opinion of Yui, but I guess all I can hope for is that you let what people have said percolate over time. With some effort, you may yet be able to find a comfortable personal solution for why Yui leaves at the end that's in keeping with her pre-established personality and motives.

Hey now, I think I've gone to some effort here to indicate my view of Yui is not as harsh as previously indicated. If you want to love and admire the woman I've no quarrel with it, but I'm not gonna go soft on her -- if I won't do that with Asuka you know I won't do it with anyone else, neh?

[NemZ]

@Reichu: Apology accepted. It probably wouldn't have bothered me if I hadn't been trying to defend 'your side' at the time.

In the interest of not further derailing things, I'll politely decline to respond to most of the rest of panther-man's post, save this:

Wallowing in misery because he "deserves" it is stupid (hell, that's the whole damn point of NGE to begin with). She's running away, damn it.

When the hell did I say anyone should wallow in misery? That's exactly what Shinji does wrong in EoE. Rather, guilt should serve as a driving motivation to get up off your ass and try to do better. Atonement is something that is earned through effort and sacrifice, not just by experiencing a sufficient amount of suffering.

I'm saying Yui's atonement is probably as Reichu suggested, that she has to go out alone and make a new flavor of humanity (or better yet, several on different worlds) to replace the one she may have irreversibly destroyed on Earth. I do however agree that holding up on that mission for a while to use her considerable abilities to fix up the planet as best she can would have been a good start on that road to redemption, not to mention good practice for the sort of terraforming projects she'll probably have to do when she reaches her eventual destination(s).

[Bagheera]

When the hell did I say anyone should wallow in misery? That's exactly what Shinji does wrong in EoE. Rather, guilt should serve as a driving motivation to get up off your ass and try to do better. Atonement is something that is earned through effort and sacrifice, not just by experiencing a sufficient amount of suffering.

How do you make that parse with "X doesn't deserve to be happy?" If they think they deserve to be miserable where is their motivation to change? I think the defining moment in all of EoE is the point where Shinji realizes he doesn't deserve to be miserable, as that motivates him to actually do something and try to improve his lot in life. His timing sucks, of course, but that does seem to be the point of the story.

I'm saying Yui's atonement is probably as Reichu suggested, that she has to go out alone and make a new flavor of humanity (or better yet, several on different worlds) to replace the one she may have irreversibly destroyed on Earth. I do however agree that holding up on that mission for a while to use her considerable abilities to fix up the planet as best she can would have been a good start on that road to redemption, not to mention good practice for the sort of terraforming projects she'll probably have to do when she reaches her eventual destination(s).

Yes. Hence, running away.

(but, in the interests of not further antagonizing Reichu, we don't know how that process would work, so maybe she couldn't do it here. It might be a "push start button and let it go" sort of thing, which could easily wipe out whatever's currently on the world and replace it with something new -- which would be bad for Shinji and humanity in general. We really don't know.)

[NemZ]

How do you make that parse with "X doesn't deserve to be happy?" If they think they deserve to be miserable where is their motivation to change?

Continuing to ignore the Shinji stuff, I'll answer this in general instead. Basically if a person doesn't deserve to be happy that means they need to work off that debt or die trying, earning any happiness they get along the way through becoming someone new through their own efforts at redemption. Someone who just wallows in that guilt and whines about never getting a break deserves no pity.

[Bagheera]

Continuing to ignore the Shinji stuff, I'll answer this in general instead. Basically if a person doesn't deserve to be happy that means they need to work off that debt or die trying, earning any happiness they get along the way through becoming someone new through their own efforts at redemption. Someone who just wallows in that guilt and whines about never getting a break deserves no pity.

Well, I'm with you there. But if that debt can be worked off I think Kaji's sentiment is fundamentally invalid; it's not that he or Shinji or Yui or anyone deserves to be unhappy, so much as that they ought to make amends. That's not quite the same thing, IMO.

[AuraTwilight]

Why do you say she can't leave the Eva? Are you seriously suggesting that Lilith can cheerfully split and recombine her soul at will, Tang three billion people at once, do wonky things with the geofront, rape the hell out of the MP Evas, and do all the other crazy insane shit she did in EoE but can't separate Yui from Unit 01 (despite the fact that Yui is just another human soul, and this after bringing her into Instrumentality)? It doesn't seem likely.

Excuse me, I didn't realize Yui had control over Lilith's actions.

Stupid, arrogant, myopic, thoughtless, mentally unbalanced...put it all together and it amounts to the same thing.

Most of these are made up absolutely on the spot.

Asuka is a bitch. Hardcore. The reason her character works is not because she's not really a bitch, but rather because she has very good reasons for being a bitch, and is successfully deconstructed as such by the time the show's over. Part of the strength of the movie's ending, IMO, is that we're left wondering if (hoping that) she learned something from her experiences and is now willing to act and be treated like a person instead of a mask or a caricature.

Asuka has absolutely no good reason for treating Shinji the way she does. She just abuses the fucker and takes advantage of him like she owns him, then keeps bullying him and kicking him in the ego whenever he pokes his head out of the depression hole, and she thinks that's perfectly acceptable. Asuka can fuck herself.

Wait, hold up. After what Shinji's been through would you honestly trust anything he says? Yes, they were still in Instrumentality, but c'mon...he's a 14-year-old kid who's been traumatized, betrayed, and abandoned many times over. He'll say anything mommy wants to hear at this point just so someone tells him everything will be alright.

Oh, I'm glad we can just ignore everything that disagrees with your idea. Yui's not a mindreader. If Shinji tells him everything is fine and she won't mind his leaving, how would she be able to call him out on it?

Right, but we still haven't established that she couldn't go back to being Yui. If she couldn't, and if Shinji really was okay with her leaving, and if she legitimately felt she couldn't help but do more harm than good...then okay, whatever. But that's a lot of ifs.

Attempts to remove Yui failed and created blue-haired clones. Evangelions have a nasty habit of absorbing people, and Shinji was only able to leave an Evangelion that already had a soul. It doesn't seem like it's possible to "empty" an Evangelion without destroying it, and there might not be enough LCL to bring back Everyone + 1 more person (Plus people like Kyoko and the souls that were shoved into the MP Evas possibly against their will if they wanna come back). Basically, best case scenario, Yui comes back to human form by denying someone else of their ability to come back.

That would be fucking evil.

[Allemann]

That would be fucking evil.

Even if it was Keel?

[Bagheera]

Excuse me, I didn't realize Yui had control over Lilith's actions.

She doesn't need it. Lilith's giving everyone a chance to come back. No reason that wouldn't include Yui.

Asuka has absolutely no good reason for treating Shinji the way she does. She just abuses the fucker and takes advantage of him like she owns him, then keeps bullying him and kicking him in the ego whenever he pokes his head out of the depression hole, and she thinks that's perfectly acceptable. Asuka can fuck herself.

Bullshit. Thanks for playing.

Oh, I'm glad we can just ignore everything that disagrees with your idea. Yui's not a mindreader. If Shinji tells him everything is fine and she won't mind his leaving, how would she be able to call him out on it?

'Cause she's a parent and he's a kid.

Attempts to remove Yui failed and created blue-haired clones. Evangelions have a nasty habit of absorbing people, and Shinji was only able to leave an Evangelion that already had a soul. It doesn't seem like it's possible to "empty" an Evangelion without destroying it, and there might not be enough LCL to bring back Everyone + 1 more person (Plus people like Kyoko and the souls that were shoved into the MP Evas possibly against their will if they wanna come back). Basically, best case scenario, Yui comes back to human form by denying someone else of their ability to come back.

Bullshit. Thanks for playing.

[AuraTwilight]

She doesn't need it. Lilith's giving everyone a chance to come back. No reason that wouldn't include Yui.

Yui was never Tanged, nor did Lilith collect Yui's soul. She's totally out of her jurisdiction.

Bullshit. Thanks for playing.

Can you explain why, or are you just going to be a dick?

'Cause she's a parent and he's a kid.

Yui is not telepathic. Their age difference and maternal connection does not mean she can read his mind.

Bullshit. Thanks for playing.

Again, can you explain why? You ask why Yui can't leave the Evangelion, and when given an explanation, you just say "no" and continue to say that no one can give you a good reason. You're plugging your fingers in your ears.

But hey, thanks for clarifying that you're a stuck up bitch that can't hold a civil conversation. No wonder you're an Asuka fan.

[Sailor Star Dust]

A reminder for both of you to "stick to the points, not the people".

[Crystal Wolf]

But hey, thanks for clarifying that you're a stuck up bitch that can't hold a civil conversation. No wonder you're an Asuka fan.

[Bagheera]

Yui was never Tanged, nor did Lilith collect Yui's soul. She's totally out of her jurisdiction.

She's in Instrumentality, so that's dubious.

Can you explain why, or are you just going to be a dick?

I gave it the response it deserved. If you don't see why your assessment of Asuka's character is bullshit by now I can't help you.

Yui is not telepathic. Their age difference and maternal connection does not mean she can read his mind.

She doesn't have to. It's basic parenting 101.

Again, can you explain why?

Short version: there's no evidence for any of it. You made it up.

[UrsusArctos]

Play the ball, not the person.

[AuraTwilight]

Short version: there's no evidence for any of it. You made it up.

This isn't even true.

She's in Instrumentality, so that's dubious.

So are Rei and Kaworu, and they're not Tangy.

I gave it the response it deserved. If you don't see why your assessment of Asuka's character is bullshit by now I can't help you.

I'm simply saying she has no good reason for treating Shinji the way she does and her excuses don't make her sympathetic enough for me. So your childhood sucked, big whoop, lots of people have parents who committed suicide. Not all of them beat up, take advantage of, and verbally abuse classmates, co-workers, and roommates.

She doesn't have to. It's basic parenting 101.

Is it? Can you cite me a passage from a Parenting 101 manual? Yui hasn't seen Shinji in over ten years; she has no idea what he's like or what he needs.

[Legendary]

She's spent the last half year getting to know him intimately, Aura. Even if Shinji hadn't gone 400%, she should still be much more aware of him than a normal parent would be.