Do You Think Shinji deserves all the fan hate?

[Bagheera]

Pretty much everyone he counted on went off onto their own agendas at the end, including Rei, and even arguably Yui.

And prior to that he spent ten years crushing everyone under his heel. Sorry, but a bit of pushback at the end doesn't make him a victim. It doesn't change what he is, either.

He may be a bastard, but to recall a phrase from history, he's our bastard.

Good, then we get to shoot him.

The Evangelions 2 Gendo Good End seemed that way.

Doesn't look any better than what we got (though with what we got people can opt out if they so choose).

Also, see NemZ's take on Classified Information and other non-show sources of "canon".

[Seele00TextOnly]

In fighting to thwart SEELE's desired outcome, he at least merits "my enemy's enemy is my friend" treatment.

(snip)

He may be a bastard, but to recall a phrase from history, he's our bastard.

Umm, no, no he's not. We don't understand anything enough about his intentions and desired outcome to establish that, aside from the Tines/NemZ Cliffnotes: Misinterpretations of EoTV project. He's not our bastard, he's just a bastard. As demonstrated in the show. Clearly. Repeatedly.

[Reichu]

A Shinji-hate thread involving Mr. TemZ vs. The World? Uncomfortably familiar... but this one seems to have more gattai and more Gendo.

...I like both Shinji and Gendo. Does that make me a bastard?

[supershinjiasukashipper]

That was just creepy.
On topic though, most people hate Shinji because of his vulnerability, they call him a whiny b**ch, but he does have a right to be one after everything he has been through.

[Sachi]

Kaworu tangent split/merged into existing Kaworu like/dislike thread.

[NemZ]

Only problem being that his actions or lack thereof have never caused any demonstrable harm.

Really? Because it seemed to me like almost everything bad that occurs regarding an eva fight does so at a time when he is either refusing or being denied the role of pilot. Kind of reinforcing the whole theme, actually. Curling up into a ball when he's needed is pretty much the exact opposite of the lesson he learned in 18-19 and demonstrated he understood in every episode that followed.

Now of course other things happen that he's got no control of, but that's just life.

[Seele00TextOnly]

(crossposting because it bears much attention and repeating)

Shinji IS, for most part, a fearless superhero.

--- He saves the world countless times, he saved Asuka from death after Sandalphon
--- He attempted to save Rei after Ramiel
--- He showed no fear in fighting Gaghiel (Asuka was more afraid actually; he was collected)
--- He showed no fear in fighting Israfel
--- He showed no fear in fighting Matarael
--- He showed no fear in fighting Sahaquiel
--- He showed no fear in fighting Bardiel (he did, however, show fear of harming another human being)
--- He showed no fear in fighting Zeruel (when the power went out he was afraid of being unable to finish it off)
--- He showed no fear in asking to go out and fight Arael
--- He showed no fear in fighting Armisael (though was shocked about the Rei outgrowth)
--- He showed no fear in fighting Tabris (he was pissed the fuck off at him and didn't want to have to kill him, but again, not fear)

[Kendrix]

(crossposting because it bears much attention and repeating)

Shinji IS, for most part, a fearless superhero.

--- He saves the world countless times, he saved Asuka here
--- He attempted to save Rei after Ramiel
--- He showed no fear in fighting Gaghiel (Asuka was more afraid actually; he was collected)
--- He showed no fear in fighting Israfel
--- He showed no fear in fighting Matarael
--- He showed no fear in fighting Sahaquiel
--- He showed no fear in fighting Bardiel (he did, however, show fear of harming another human being)
--- He showed no fear in fighting Zeruel (when the power went out he was afraid of being unable to finish it off)
--- He showed no fear in asking to go out and fight Arael
--- He showed no fear in fighting Armisael (though was shocked about the Rei outgrowth)
--- He showed no fear in fighting Tabris (he was pissed the fuck off at him and didn't want to have to kill him, but again, not fear)

Shinji IS UNDERRATED.
EOE ISNT HOW HE NORMALLY IS

I wondered if we were talking about the same show when I read the tv tropes wiki describing him as fighthing like a berserker - But actually, he does. You give him a riffle, he empties it in a second - didn't work with Shamshel, but he learned from that, as poor, poor Matarel had the fortune of finding out.

[Nightweaver20xx]

Now I wonder what side of the family he got his sociopathic, occasionally psychotic behavior from...

[Bagheera]

Really? Because it seemed to me like almost everything bad that occurs regarding an eva fight does so at a time when he is either refusing or being denied the role of pilot. Kind of reinforcing the whole theme, actually. Curling up into a ball when he's needed is pretty much the exact opposite of the lesson he learned in 18-19 and demonstrated he understood in every episode that followed.

Now of course other things happen that he's got no control of, but that's just life.

Let's see:

-- Gendo didn't let him do anything with Arael, but he was in the pilot's seat regardless. Asuka got raped.

-- He tried to fight Armasael, but couldn't do squat. Rei died.

-- He did his job with Kaworu. He was forced to murder his best friend.

-- Yui and bakelite stopped him in Air, but once Yui let him in we got Third Impact. Oh, this is after Asuka rejects him utterly and Rei shatters his mind.

I think your theory needs work. Every time he got in the Eva after 19 really fucking terrible things happened.

[Eva Yojimbo]

a) Show your mom that scene and see what she has to say about this nice young man.

Believe it or not, my mom actually sympathized with Shinji there, essentially saying that she couldn't blame someone who'd been pushed that far.

It's not whether Shinji would have failed or not; it's the not even trying.

Well, that's what happens when you hit the depths of depression but can't kill yourself.

[Cody MacArthur Fett]

Now I wonder what side of the family he got his sociopathic, occasionally psychotic behavior from...

Probably Yui considering how she fights while the Eva is berserking. Though Gendo probably didn't help things. However, since I've always been one to believe that nurture trumps nature every day of the week, I am wondering just who Shinji's teacher really was.

[Kendrix]

He's got the stubborness he tends to show in his "DO NOT WANT" mode from his mother (see ep 19: I Want my Baby right here, the rest of the world be damned!) and the Heroic (?) self-depreciation from his old man. I wonder who the musical talent is from, tough younger Gendo didn't exactly look like an aspiring musician to me... It's Yui who has that 'cultured' air about her.

What did Rei get? Yui's good looks, her intelligence (look at the books she reads), Gendo's undying devotion towards the ones she loves, and his iron determination. - Yes, she also got his (lack of) body langugage, but meh, it's not like her fanboys mind.

Yeah, life isn't fair.

[NemZ]

Every time he got in the Eva after 19 really fucking terrible things happened.

I don't see it that way at all.

22 - Wants to fight, denied. What happens to Asuka has nothing to do with him and everything to do with her own pride.

23 - Wants to fight, only gets a chance after it's too late to change anything. Certainly would have fought to the bitter end if Rei hadn't settled the matter on her own terms.

24 - Finally gets a clean shot and performs admirably, accepting the responsibility of a hard task to prevent a much worse outcome and showing that he DID in fact learn from his mistakes in 18.

Now look at this:

25 - Tells the questioning voices that he did what he had to do, stands by his actions even though he clearly regrets their necessity.

25' - Wallows in self pity and does his absolute best to waste the life others have sacrificed to give him.

See a difference here?

Well, that's what happens when you hit the depths of depression but can't kill yourself.

again, explanation =/= excuse

[Bagheera]

I don't see it that way at all.

22 - Wants to fight, denied. What happens to Asuka has nothing to do with him and everything to do with her own pride.

He was piloting his Eva at the time. Had he curled up into a ball and done absolutely nothing the outcome would have been the same.

23 - Wants to fight, only gets a chance after it's too late to change anything. Certainly would have fought to the bitter end if Rei hadn't settled the matter on her own terms.

And had he curled up into a ball and done absolutely nothing the outcome would have been the same.

24 - Finally gets a clean shot and performs admirably, accepting the responsibility of a hard task to prevent a much worse outcome and showing that he DID in fact learn from his mistakes in 18.

No, he didn't. He did the same damn thing he's been doing since day one: taken the only route open to him.

And he was still forced to murder his friend. That's pretty fucking terrible.

Now look at this:

25 - Tells the questioning voices that he did what he had to do, stands by his actions even though he clearly regrets their necessity.

25' - Wallows in self pity and does his absolute best to waste the life others have sacrificed to give him.

Ah, there's your problem. Shinji's the one who's been forced to make sacrifices, not the other way around. No one's sacrificed a damn thing for him.

Also, he really has no reason to live by that point.

See a difference here?

Not really. But then, I'm not spinning the deaths of the people around him to mean something they clearly don't.

again, explanation =/= excuse

That's your other problem: you're assuming his actions (or lack thereof) need to be excused. They don't. He has no reason to think his actions will do anyone any good, so why should he bother?

[NemZ]

He was piloting his Eva at the time. Had he curled up into a ball and done absolutely nothing the outcome would have been the same.

...like I said earlier, repeatedly: intentions are more important than results. And no, sitting on standby does not count as piloting.

No, he didn't. He did the same damn thing he's been doing since day one: taken the only route open to him.

And he was still forced to murder his friend. That's pretty fucking terrible.

He could have let him go, probably even considered it long and hard. But ultimately a dude he met two days ago, no matter how manipulatively friendly and open he was, can't measure up against the lives of the entire planet.

Ah, there's your problem. Shinji's the one who's been forced to make sacrifices, not the other way around. No one's sacrificed a damn thing for him.

Bullshit. I shouldn't have to explain this all again so I'm not going to waste my time.

That's your other problem: you're assuming his actions (or lack thereof) need to be excused. They don't.

Yes they very much do, for reasons I've already gone over. Repeatedly.

[Bagheera]

...like I said earlier, repeatedly: intentions are more important than results. And no, sitting on standby does not count as piloting.

No they aren't, and yes it does.

He could have let him go, probably even considered it long and hard. But ultimately a dude he met two days ago, no matter how manipulatively friendly and open he was, can't measure up against the lives of the entire planet.

Like I said, he took the only option available to him.

Bullshit. I shouldn't have to explain this all again so I'm not going to waste my time.

Your explanation is bullshit. Repeating it doesn't help. You need a different rationale. I'll show you why:

-- Kaworu sacrificed nothing (see, he came back the very next episode...). Shinji was forced to killed a friend.
-- Misato sacrificed nothing. She died because she was stupid (watch the scene again; she didn't get hit because he was being non-responsive. She got hit because she was just standing there with a sign on her back saying "shoot me!").
-- Asuka sacrificed nothing because she was killed by the plot.
-- Rei sacrificed nothing because she knew she could come back (and she did, and she remembered enough to fuck him up later on).

Who got fucked up by all of this? Shinji (well, and Asuka, but that's nothing to do with him). He's the one who's suffering through all of this, and no one's doing jack to help him.

Yes they very much do, for reasons I've already gone over. Repeatedly.

Yes, but your reasons aren't compelling, to me or anyone else here (well, except for Tines, but he didn't need to be convinced).

[NemZ]

-- Kaworu sacrificed nothing (see, he came back the very next episode...). Shinji was forced to killed a friend.
-- Misato sacrificed nothing. She died because she was stupid (watch the scene again; she didn't get hit because he was being non-responsive. She got hit because she was just standing there with a sign on her back saying "shoot me!").
-- Rei sacrificed nothing because she knew she could come back (and she did, and she remembered enough to fuck him up later on).

K - Shinji didn't know that. From his perspective the guy was dead and gone.

M - The only reason she's on this whole trip through contested areas in the first place is because he didn't report to the fucking cages when the alarm sounded.

A - I never mentioned her as a sacrifice for his sake, so why bring her up?

R - Rei3 is not the same as Rei2 nor does Shinji see them that way, so yes she did sacrifice herself.

As to the rest, it's clear as crystal to me and I honestly can't comprehend how anyone can see it differently. It must be that they are using fundamentally different definitions of duty, responsibility and morality than I am, and as such there's no basis on which to even begin a meaningful discussion.

[Mr. Tines]

25 - Tells the questioning voices that he did what he had to do, stands by his actions even though he clearly regrets their necessity.

25' - Wallows in self pity and does his absolute best to waste the life others have sacrificed to give him.

Pretty much this. The former feels like the natural continuation of his acceptance of the unwanted responsibilities thrust upon him ever since he claimed the position as his : "I, I am the pilot of Evangelion Unit One, Ikari Shinji!". In EoE it's almost like he comes from a different story where he's been rage-quit since the EVA-03 incident, except that somehow he's got the hots for Kaworu somewhere along the line.

[Bagheera]

K - Shinji didn't know that. From his perspective the guy was dead and gone.

That doesn't change anything. From Kaworu's perspective it wasn't a sacrifice, and from Shinji's he was forced to kill his friend for no good reason (Kaworu didn't even have to be there!).

M - The only reason she's on this whole trip through contested areas in the first place is because he didn't report to the fucking cages when the alarm sounded.

Base was being invaded, remember? If not there she'd be killed somewhere else. And again, she didn't need to be killed at all -- if she'd been making appropriate use of cover she wouldn't have been hit to begin with.

R - Rei3 is not the same as Rei2 nor does Shinji see them that way, so yes she did sacrifice herself.

But he didn't see it that way, and she has the same damn soul so the difference is academic.

As to the rest, it's clear as crystal to me and I honestly can't comprehend how anyone can see it differently. It must be that they are using fundamentally different definitions of duty, responsibility and morality than I am, and as such there's no basis on which to even begin a meaningful discussion.

We don't apply those things to someone with diminished mental capacity. That's why the justice systems of most civilized nations (including Japan) make allowances for extreme emotional distress and such when weighing responsibility for what are normally criminal actions.

This is the part you just refuse to get -- Shinji was so emotionally damaged he could not do his duty. That's not just an explanation, either -- legally and morally it does, in fact, excuse his actions (or lack thereof).

(all the moreso because the results wound up about as good as one could hope.)

Pretty much this. The former feels like the natural continuation of his acceptance of the unwanted responsibilities thrust upon him ever since he claimed the position as his : "I, I am the pilot of Evangelion Unit One, Ikari Shinji!". In EoE it's almost like he comes from a different story where he's been rage-quit since the EVA-03 incident, except that somehow he's got the hots for Kaworu somewhere along the line.

Note, however, that one takes place in Instrumentality while the other takes place in the real world. Shinji can be "normal" in Instrumentality for the same reason Asuka can hold a conversation despite what's just happened to her. But in the real world things are different (i.e. the pain of their experiences is present and weighing them down).