Shinji 2.0 an improvement?

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby SJCrew » Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:27 pm

I'm not sure about the psychology, but Shinji 2.0 is an improvement to watch, that's for sure. You can argue that this aspect of him basically made the original seres what it is, but that doesn't change the fact that I just plain didn't like his character.

Taking 2.0 for what it is, I'm actually glad he turned into such a badass and saved Rei. It made him easier to root for and made for a more exhilarating experience.

I'm really not sure what the appeal is to watching the main character bitch, moan, and run from his problems, but you guys must really love that perfect picture of the original series you've crafted for yourselves to defend it so vehemently.

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Postby Lucretius » Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:46 pm

I honestly thought the ending made Shinji seem like more of a jerkass, though probably unintentionally. The Shinji of episodes 18-19 is powerless to save anyone; he can't rescue Toji, sure, but he only beats Zeruel because his Eva goes beserk. When Kaji explains the situation, he gets into the Eva for the sake of the whole human race.

Movie Shinji has spiral power, but only unleashes it when the main love interest is threatened. He knows the world's at stake, but apparently doesn't care. His whole "screw the whole world" line was probably hyperbole rather than an actual intention to destroy humanity, but it doesn't make him look like less of a jackass. Due, Misato can probably hear you over the intercom.

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Postby Legendary » Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:31 pm

Actually, as Seele has pointed out repeatedly, the line effectively means "I don't care about being in the world. Ayanami should be, but if I have to lose my human form for that, I don't care."

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Postby SJCrew » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:22 pm

Yeah, you guys keep bringing up that "sacrificing the world to save Rei" bit as if Shinji had any knowledge of the Instrumentality Project or that his actions would have a negative effect on anyone beside himself. You know you would have been the hero and saved that girl too.

Oh, and remember Kaworu? He's not an idiot, he'd kill someone close to him to save the world if it really came down to it.

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Postby oOoOoOo » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:40 pm

Rebuild Shinji is way more active. He engages more with the people around him, and is more of a badass shonen mecha hero.

He's still Shinji, though. Just like in the TV series, in Rebuild he still hates himself and is clueless about the big picture. (Which is adorable in its own way.)

He's more upbeat in Rebuild, acting friendly with the people around him and generally taking more initiative in life. But deep down he's still coping with the idea he's unwanted or unworthy of love. So that can make it easier for him to be self-sacrificing.

And Shinji rarely knows what's going on at Nerv, let alone what's going on in the world at large. Even if he knew he'd trigger the apocalypse, he wouldn't be thinking about anything except for Rei. I think fighting space alien monsters has never been about the big picture for him, but about his father or other Nerv people.
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Postby esselfortium » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:53 pm

In EoE, people hated Shinji for killing the world accidentally. In 2.0, they think he's a hero for it.

I guess there's just no pleasing some people.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:26 am

View Original Postbladerj wrote:You know something just ocurred to me.......how the hell does he even know Rei is alive ?!? and how to retrieve her?


Mari tells Shinji when she grabs him from the shelter. It's shortly before he takes off running.
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Postby carla » Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:49 am

Aura Twilight wrote:No it's not. The problem is that even if Shinji was aware of what he was doing, he wouldn't change his course of action. He even says as much. His awareness of what's going on is totally irrelevant.


*blinks* um, that's what i was saying.

what i mean is, whether he knows or doesn't know, doesn't matter. just the idea that there's a dark/selfish component to his actions sets rebuild apart from typical shonen series-- and that's a defense of rebuild!Shinji in the eyes of people who don't want EVA to become "typical."


SJCrew wrote:Shinji 2.0 is an improvement to watch, that's for sure.


QFT.


Lucretius wrote:the ending made Shinji seem like more of a jerkass


yeah, probably. it's a step up from useless, though. at least IMO.


esselfortium wrote:In EoE, people hated Shinji for killing the world accidentally. In 2.0, they think he's a hero for it.

I guess there's just no pleasing some people.


in reply to this, and i think SJCrew as well--

1. it's really not about whether or not he knew what he was doing. he didn't know in EoE, and he doesn't know in rebuild, so this doesn't even matter. the difference is in their motivation: there's a world of difference between "nobody wants me. so, everybody just die" and "i don't care what happens to me. i don't care what happens to the world. but at least i will save Ayanami!" (also, legendary, i'm going by the translation that's in the wiki. i can't presume that i know anything about the nuances of the Japanese language, so if there's a better way to translate that, i'd probably have to wait until a consensus is reached by more knowledgeable people anyway. for the moment, i stick to what i have at hand).

2. Shinji's hardly a hero in rebuild. if the world goes to crap because he insisted on saving his would-be girlfriend, i can't in good conscience call him a hero. he does, however, exhibit some of the components of typical heroic behavior. in fact, i think even EoE Shinji has a heroic component, since he rejected instrumentality even though this would bring him pain. but i wouldn't call either of them (LOL) heroes. of course, i guess that depends on one's concept of what a hero is...

3. i've never hated Shinji. i love Shinji. :nyao: not as much as Asuka, but like o-san said, he's adorable in his own way.
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Postby esselfortium » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:56 am

His actions in 2.0 don't make me sympathetic with him in the least bit, though.

It feels like 2.0 tries to manipulate audience sympathy in Shinji's favor by presenting him like he's become an action hero, when in reality his actions are far less mature or agreeable than they are in the equivalent parts of the series. (In b4 "don't compare the movies to the show")

If 3.0 consisted of Asuka beating the snot out of this Shinji and calling him out on his bullshit, then going out for ice cream without him ever being mentioned onscreen again, I'd probably be pretty okay with that.

Really, one of the only ways I think I'd much like for Rebuild to take his character from this point is if Shinji turned out to not actually be the protagonist of the following movies, and it was revealed that 2.0 was intentionally playing with audience sympathy to show how easily action movie audiences are manipulated into supporting the "hero" just because his actions are presented a certain way.

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Postby carla » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:30 pm

so basically, he had a ton of issues in NGE, so that makes him relatable; he's begun to work out those issues in rebuild, but that makes him a poser?

i guess in the end this is subjective, of course. if someone's stuck on the idea that anno is forcing hero!Shinji down our throats, there's not much i can say to that. i just know that i didn't see it that way, precisely for the selfish angle i mentioned in my previous post-- yet i feel that even if Shinji isn't all hero this time around, i can see some improvement in him. or at least in his motivation.


FWIW, i would welcome 3.0 coming from another character's PoV as well. i think it would be interesting. i'd be afraid of the resulting outcry from the fandom, though. :tongue:
bittersweet ending: episode 24. the angels are gone and mankind is safe... but tokyo-3 has been ruined; Kaji is dead; toji is a cripple; kensuke, hikari, and their families have moved away, taking pen-pen with them; Asuka is catatonic; ritsuko is in prison; Misato is a nervous wreck; Rei is "the third one"; and Shinji is utterly broken psychologically after having to kill the only person who has offered him unconditional love in the course of the whole series. come the movie? don't worry! it gets worse! ~from the source of all wisdom in the world.

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Postby esselfortium » Tue Jun 22, 2010 1:44 pm

View Original Postcarla wrote:so basically, he had a ton of issues in NGE, so that makes him relatable; he's begun to work out those issues in rebuild, but that makes him a poser?

i guess in the end this is subjective, of course. if someone's stuck on the idea that anno is forcing hero!Shinji down our throats, there's not much i can say to that. i just know that i didn't see it that way, precisely for the selfish angle i mentioned in my previous post-- yet i feel that even if Shinji isn't all hero this time around, i can see some improvement in him. or at least in his motivation.


FWIW, i would welcome 3.0 coming from another character's PoV as well. i think it would be interesting. i'd be afraid of the resulting outcry from the fandom, though. :tongue:

That wasn't really what I was trying to get at. I'm not opposed to the characters being able to improve themselves at all. In 2.0, though, his father issues felt like an overblown caricature of themselves that swallowed up everything else, and a lot of his interactions with other characters didn't really make a lot of sense to me. I wouldn't really consider him or the people around him any better off for it.

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Postby SJCrew » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:14 pm

View Original Postcarla wrote:
2. Shinji's hardly a hero in rebuild. if the world goes to crap because he insisted on saving his would-be girlfriend, i can't in good conscience call him a hero. he does, however, exhibit some of the components of typical heroic behavior. in fact, i think even EoE Shinji has a heroic component, since he rejected instrumentality even though this would bring him pain. but i wouldn't call either of them (LOL) heroes. of course, i guess that depends on one's concept of what a hero is...

Shinji saved Rei from the giant monster that ate her. He's been through the end of the world before, he came out on top, and he's going to do it again. Not only is he a hero, but he's the hero of Evangelion. None of the complex bullshit in the series or movies changes the fact that he's saved the world from direct and immediate destruction from the angels time and time again on his own volition. I think you're too wrapped in the ideal that a hero needs to be boyscout Superman-perfect to see the big picture here.

Also, does anyone here remember the first episode at all? What was Shinji's motivation for piloting? It wasn't "saving the world" or "being a hero", it was for Rei. We get the same deal here, only later, so nothing's really changed. Shinji has his own reasons for piloting that don't necessarily have to include a grandiose train of thought in order to be valid or effective.

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Postby Amras Felagund » Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:54 pm

Personally, I feel like Shinji's actions at the end of Evangelion New Theatrical Edition: Break are a deconstruction of the type of heroism we see in Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. I mean, Eva-01's out of power, but Shinji gets it to move, and pulls all sorts of visual badassery on the Tenth Angel.

But at the same time, he's endangering the entire world because he's so focused on saving one person that nothing else matters. This is what really happens when you can make a mecha more powerful with just fighting spirit: you could destroy the world without realising it.

Still, it's to be admired that Shinji is fighting because he wants to, not because other people are telling him to. Even misguided people can be admired in their tenacity. I mean, Zuko was wrong to pursue Aang in ATLA, but his refusal to give up was admirable (at least to me).

Basically, Shinji's actions at the end of You can (not) advance. are, to me, heroic but selfish. Heroic, in the sense that he will not stop until he has saved Rei, no matter what stands in his way; even if he himself dies, it won't matter if Rei is safe. And selfish, in the sense that he doesn't care what happens to the world; as long as Rei is safe, the world could disappear for all he cared (at least, that's how it seems). I don't admire him for nearly initiating Third Impact, but I do think it's admirable (and a little frightening as well) that he went to such lengths to save Rei.

Even so, I would be very surprised if he wasn't vilified in some fashion in 3.0.

Incidentally, the subtitle for 2.0 can be found in the title of TTGL:
ヱヴァンゲリヲン新劇場版:
天元突グレンラガン

The common kanji has been bolded.

It's most likely a coincidence, since TTGL first aired in April 2007, and NME was in the works long before that. Still, it's an interesting coincidence.
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Postby 0x2eleven » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:28 am

View Original PostShinji_Fan wrote: When he did killed his friend to save the world. And yet that verison of Shinji is the one that was called a "bitch" and seen as a nasty character. Despite the fact that he did what is considered now the right choice, he barely got any consideration for it at all.



Shinji didn't kill Toji, the Dummy System did.
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Postby esselfortium » Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:38 am

View Original Post0x2eleven wrote:Shinji didn't kill Toji, the Dummy System did.

He's talking about Shinji's hard choice to kill Kaworu.

And Toji didn't die in NGE, he lost a leg.

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Postby AuraTwilight » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:29 am

Derpa derpa manga
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Postby Monk Ed » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:44 am

View Original PostoOoOoOo wrote:He's still Shinji, though. Just like in the TV series, in Rebuild he still hates himself and is clueless about the big picture. (Which is adorable in its own way.)

You know what the most adorable thing I remember him doing was? In the TV series, when he heard the cicadas starting up in the morning after he ran away that first time, he got all scared and covered his ears and started running. Adorable! It helps that I love cicadas, so for him to be frightened of them evokes "Aw, little Shinji, don't be scared, they're just making a pretty noise, see?"

I sometimes wonder if Shinji is Asperger's, because that kind of reaction to something that seems so completely innocuous to others is ... familiar.

Anyway, unlike in NGE where Shinji didn't really get the big picture till ep 19, Rebuild Shinji understood the big picture at the end of the first movie. In fact, I think that was the stated point of the first movie. However, he seems to lose sight of that big picture very easily, which makes sense for his age. He even seems to be self-aware of that, given such lines as "I don't care what happens to the world."

I don't think he really "doesn't care" though. I interpreted that scene as him thinking he was saving the world (because he was defeating the Angel), but was making it clear that it was incidental on his way to saving Rei. The fact that he was actually endangering the world in some way seemed to be beyond him. So I think it was bravado and all that; if he were made really aware that he was endangering the world, I think his attitude would have been different.
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Postby Azathoth » Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:47 am

View Original PostAmras Felagund wrote:Personally, I feel like Shinji's actions at the end of Evangelion New Theatrical Edition: Break are a deconstruction of the type of heroism we see in Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. I mean, Eva-01's out of power, but Shinji gets it to move, and pulls all sorts of visual badassery on the Tenth Angel.

But at the same time, he's endangering the entire world because he's so focused on saving one person that nothing else matters. This is what really happens when you can make a mecha more powerful with just fighting spirit: you could destroy the world without realising it.


I've heard this said before, but what people don't quite seem to realize is that TTGL already deconstructed this sort of heroism on its own.

TTGL  SPOILER: Show
The series doesn't end with Simon saying "alright, fuck causality! I'm going to save Nia and bring back everyone that died, and if you get in my way then fuck you too!" It ends with him realizing that the dead are dead - even when they're the people he loved.

Ultimately, Simon forsakes Kamina's message - "pierce the heavens, never look back, always keep going forward, etc." - in favor first of Nia's message - "you have a responsibility to other people that trumps your desire to go to the moon" - and then in favor of the Antispiral's message - "your responsibility to all people trumps your love for any single person."


Fuck, I think I just solved Rebuild's problems. All that needs to happen is the Antispiral punching Shinji in the face.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:03 am

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:All that needs to happen is the Antispiral punching Shinji in the face.
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Postby carla » Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:49 am

esselfortium wrote:In 2.0, though, his father issues felt like an overblown caricature of themselves that swallowed up everything else, and a lot of his interactions with other characters didn't really make a lot of sense to me.


i thought his father issues were more noticeable than in NGE, but i felt that was probably the pacing. they have to develop that theme, it's central to the story, but the movies are shorter so it feels like there's an inordinately long amount of time devoted to it. and i personally don't think he was acting in a way that a normal 14-year-old kid with daddy issues wouldn't. what was his worst offense, calling his father and expecting a response? being happy that his father congratulated him on a job well done? he did all that in the series and it seems very natural to me, anyway. it's not like he built a shrine to gendo in the bathroom or something.

this is just personal perception, of course. i guess if you just got a different vibe out of it, well, what can we do. we all see things differently. :shrug:


View Original PostSJCrew wrote:I think you're too wrapped in the ideal that a hero needs to be boyscout Superman-perfect to see the big picture here.


like i said, it depends on each person's definition. i've always considered Shinji to be more of an antihero, myself.

i'm really not trying to put Shinji down, man. i love Shinji, and i love rebuild!Shinji. just because i don't think he's an archetypal hero doesn't mean i don't see admirable aspects in him. he's certainly done some amazing things. i was just trying to defend him to people who think rebuild has become a typical shonen "i just have to believe in myself and things will be alright!" story-- it hasn't; i can still see flaws in him, and i feel this is still a deconstruction of stereotypical hero themes. although i think amras probably explained it better than i did. :tongue:


@azatoth-- interesting. i haven't seen TTGL (i really should, though), but some of what you mentioned still sounds rather heroic to me. the first assertion sounds vaguely superman-ish to me. and that last point, well, that's pretty much the point i think a true hero should actually get to (bar liberal use of deus ex machina such as time travel and what not), or at the very least the basic scheme of hero drama: my loved ones or the world. Shinji faces that in 2.0 but doesn't reach the conclusion i'd expect from a hero-- he just gets spear'd. basically kaworu made that decision for him, lol. :chuckles:

but again, not everybody sees "heroes" the same way. the line between hero and antihero isn't exactly clear, especially nowadays, since the antihero seems to be more popular. it's even bled into the actual superhero genre, so it makes things even more blurry.
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