NGE Ep.24 Script First and Second Drafts

[Mr. Tines]

Would you mind elaborating on this?

The out of the blue

Asuka:
If you can't be all mine, then I don't need you!

struck me as a "lolwut!?" and a complete contrast to the rest of their interactions.

It made me wonder if there had been some need to force a romance element out of nowhere just for the cinema audiences, even though the TV series had managed happily without any such (after the R/S plotline petered out 20 episodes earlier).

[LiLi]

You mean EoE vs EoTV then, right?

(I sorta felt like they had to include all major Shinji-pairings in the movie, just to subvert/pervert them in the most fantastic ways... to troll the otaku crowd maybe? )

[Mr. Tines]

You mean EoE vs EoTV then, right?

Yes; I watched the series without the DC material, then EoE -- only later did the DC material become available. And, yes, much of what wasn't revealing what was going on behind the scenes was more het stuff that the series had done fine without.

[LiLi]

@Tines:

We're thinking along the same lines there, it seems... IIRC I probably watched NGE/EoE in pretty much the same way you did.
(You know, I kinda want to go back and look carefully at the Renewal version of the movie to see which parts actually survived into the final cut and which didn't...)

If you don't mind me asking, what do you think of Drafts!Asuka so far compared to NGE!Asuka? (I'd ask about Shikinami too but that's for the Rebuild thread...)

[Mr. Tines]

what do you think of Drafts!Asuka so far

I've not had the bandwidth to read the drafts as yet, let alone ruminate on the characters. And I've only seen Shikinami in posters and fan-arts.

[Synapsid]

What really would have pissed people off though, is that after viewers spent most of the show either projecting themselves onto the show's protagonist or identifying with him, to have him turn gay near the end...

You see, I think that's sort of the reason most people refuse to look at the actual episode 24 with eyes unclouded...

The homowhut elements are still there for those willing to see them, IMHO: you're just given more of a way out, a chance to refuse to, so to speak.

I did sort of get the impression that people tend to see things through Shinji so some of his non mecha hero elements (effeminacy and homosexuality especially) tend to make people uncomfortable, and I’m under the impression that Anno did that to make the fanboys uncomfortable (and having him fall in love with another boy rather than the girls would have taken Anno’s subversion of otaku culture to it’s conclusion).

I'm afraid I agree that whatever the reason that got Anno/Staff to change their plans, the end result was that some aspects of the show felt like they had failed to develop adequately: for example, I think Draft 1 would probably have made it easier for the audience to understand how shattered Shinjuliet felt after killing Kaworomeo...

I think it did, it seems that a forced change in scripts might have removed a lot of the context that framed what came after in place. A lot of people remark on how Shinji’s mental breakdown in TV/EOE seems like a spontaneous collapse or abandonment but if the Shinjuliet element is taken in really does explain his behavior, including his desperate clinging. And yes I'm sure that even if something like K/S might have scarred away the fans new ones would have come in soon enough.

Asuka:
If you can't be all mine, then I don't need you!

struck me as a "lolwut!?" and a complete contrast to the rest of their interactions...

I feel some het-type retconning was literally shoved down our throats in view of/with EoE after the original series aired - even though there's still plenty of room for ambiguity there. It's just perhaps that people tend to be more forgiving if it's het?

Err, I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you two on that opinion, it doesn't seem like retconning, it seems like a belivable way for Shinji to try and evade the pain from having killed his love, he convinces himself that he can take refuge with Asuka, and that he "loves" her (actualy if the thermal expansion and sexual tension from the show was present I'm rather sure that Shinji isn't just into guys, he did say Kaworu was his first love but that doesn't rule out any of the awkward attraction he might have felt towards the others). Shinji's abandonment talk in the scripts puts that fear he has into context and explains why after he's behind again he throws himself at whoever he might feel affection to In this case the puppy clings on to Asuka's leg, and his freakout at rejection/abandonment does make a bit more sence this way.
And Shinji running to Asuka for comfort after having killed the one he loved would certanly explain Asuka's frustration at him, and her "anybody will do" and "escape" comments really do make sense...I'm sure that if one day ago Kaworu was Shinji's main course the idea of him talking to her about "love" must have rubbed her wrong, and come out as some sort of hypocrisy which must have been one of her reasons behind chasing away the puppy. And actualy I think the Kiss contrast might be a bit intresting

I don't think Eva was ever about making you feel safe and comfortable - actually, IIRC, some Japanese commenters (I had posted an interview with one of them) said it was about lulling the otaku in a false sense of security in the first part of the show only to subvert it all in the second part. I think in this sense KawoShin would not have been OOC or out of place...

I really do agree with that, what Anno presents at the surface (even if background parts seem strange about it)is usualy way more "normal" that what ever comes after; Shinji not falling in love with the "harem" of girls around him and ending up with another boy wouldn't be any different from what else Anno's set up.
Uh, and if you don't mind my asking would you be okay with posting a link to the commentator who mentioned that part about trolling?

I think the fact the often decried K/S fans actually had something of a point in their analysis, is bound to cause some discomfort... To be honest I wasn't sure if I was being biased about it but you don't act around somebody who's just a "friend" like that, or let the fact you've thought about bedding them slip out...But I'm actualy a bit surprised at how far Anno had thought of it going, it does come out almost like a romance story, minus the creepy scar foreshadowing, ghosts, and yandere/stalker Shinji.

[Mr. Tines]

Err, I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you two on that opinion, it doesn't seem like retconning, it seems like a belivable way for Shinji

I was talking about Asuka -- she gets all the DC episode ret-conning that isn't to do with revealing the truth behind the conspiracies.

[LiLi]

Err, I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you two on that opinion, it doesn't seem like retconning,

I call it retconning because they made the anime, then went back and changed/added stuff in the DC (aka Video Version). They did also retcon Rei II's final battle with the GNR scenes. Interestingly, it seems the DC (Video) version didn't eventually replace the so-called "On Air" version - both seem to exist side by side as alt. versions of canon. In fact, I personally think a number of the DC (Video) scenes display little relevance/consistence in the context of the EoTV continuity, IIRC, so it makes sense to have both in parallel...

EoE could also be seen as a massive 'retconning' of the EoTV (I guess you could say it was largely sold as such...?)

I don't mind, I like having multiple versions of the same canon! It serves to remind us all that it's fiction, a human creation...

Uh, and if you don't mind my asking would you be okay with posting a link to the commentator who mentioned that part about trolling?

Sure, no prob! Here you go:
http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?p=277474#277474

Note especially this part:

SPOILER: Show

The reviews andcomments of Anime fans published in their respective magazines show their disappointment with the later episodes, since there is no hope for a happy ending and no space for their identification with characters.

[DummyPlug]

I knew he was gay... I think what people hated about it is that we weren't told right from the start. He started off a little like just a skinny nerd, and they spent most of the series building up hype about him having a relationship with either Rei or Asuka. And then all of a sudden in one episode they finally admit he was gay all the time. I'm sorry but the transition could have been a little bit smoother... I for one have nothing against the idea of him being gay I mean, whatever makes him happy right?, it's just that it was rather violent. I know the actual episode 24 was ambiguous but this changes (confirms?) my interpretation of the final version of the episode.

[LiLi]

@DummyPlug:

I think I see what you mean... but maybe in the final version he was supposed to be bi-confused rather than gay? Maybe it was about as much of a revelation to him as it was to the audience, so to speak? Or maybe... they just wanted to exploit the full potential for Otaku!Trolling: lull the otaku into a (false?) sense of security in the first part of the show and then... BAM!?

[DummyPlug]

This makes me wonder if there were maybe other things that were also vetoed out of the scripts.

[LiLi]

I'm also rather curious as to what those June interviews to Anno actually said... Reportedly he discussed some of the issues concerning the production of ep. 24, such as how they had to turn the swimming scene into a bathing scene cause it would have been too naughty for the designated airtime.

Rumors also have it he said something akin to Shinji or Kaworu (depending on the source of the rumor) not being conceived as a gay character but I've never been able to find the actual Japanese text (or even a translation for that matter - all I got is vague hearsay and no sauce). Also, how to reconcile that with the scripts he gave to the very same magazine?? (For Kaworu we could probably fanwank something, but at least in Shinji's case, the physical attraction component in the drafts seems pretty obvious to me...)

Add to that the fact Anno himself played heavily on Kaworu's perceived homosexuality in the Drama CD he wrote...

[Mr. Tines]

played heavily on Kaworu's perceived homosexuality

Asuka: Well hello, homo-boy.

Kaoru: I really wish you wouldn't make statements when you lack evidence for them.

Joke ends.

Looks more like a recantation.

[LiLi]

Asuka: Well hello, homo-boy.

Kaoru: I really wish you wouldn't make statements when you lack evidence for them.

Joke ends.

Looks more like a recantation.

Recantation? AFAIK that line - which begins the "you lack game" - has been interpreted as mirroring the in-fandom debate on Kaworu's perceived homosexuality (please note I used this same expression before), but there's more after that, actually.

I can think of at least 4 times the issue is brought up in a 20 minutes-long Drama... mostly by Asuka, but there's also that interesting line delivered by Kaworu himself about 'leaving the enemy's side for the sake of Love'...

BTW, the drama CD reportedly introduced the term "Narcisshomo" as a term to refer to Kaworu to the Japanese fandom (a reference to the Super Sentai parody bit).

There's also more in the Animate Voice Cassette, but I don't know who wrote the script for that.

:EDIT:
I forgot to mention this: IIRC, in one of the Drafts even Rei has figured out Shinji has a thing for Kaworu... she's about to go fight him herself to spare Shin-chan from doing it...

Unlike Asuka, she seems completely unfazed by Kaworu's transfer to the Good Side in the Drama CD:

"Then, why don't you stay?"

[CATO]

Thank you very much! This is fascinating material.

Either way, it might have gone down in history as even more of a classic pioneering work, anticipating the times.

Are you sure about this? I prefer the ambiguous nature of the series, although I'm aware "ambiguity" is the new deus ex machina for everything lately. Yet Eva plays it masterfully.
These drafts, the 1st one in special, seem to simplify Shinji's struggle to one of paranoia and repressed homosexuality. I know this is not the intention behind it, but would be the likely conclusion withdrawn from the audience. Eva would not be as groundbreaking with that approach.

But I do agree on the swimming scene fitting the show as it is in a perfect way.

The drafts made me wonder about Anno's sexuality and his perceptions on it.

[Alaska Slim]

and I’m under the impression that Anno did that to make the fanboys uncomfortable

And in this area suffers from a gaping flaw, as I've pointed out. Above it all, Hideaki Anno did not troll for its own sake, he had a purpose, and any theory covering the traits and mentality of the characters must acknowledge that, if you don’t, dis continuity is the only thing that ensues.

I knew he was gay... I think what people hated about it is that we weren't told right from the start. He started off a little like just a skinny nerd, and they spent most of the series building up hype about him having a relationship with either Rei or Asuka. And then all of a sudden in one episode they finally admit he was gay all the time.

Oh, right, the main protagonist is weak, whiny, and always emotional, so he must be gay, I mean there's absolutely no way a heterosexual guy can be that way, can it? All the Otakus... yup, they're secretly gay, that's what Hideaki Anno was getting at, so let's all sing the song together so they can feel okay about it!

... God that sucked, I'll never get why people think trolling is fun....

[LiLi]

Thank you very much! This is fascinating material.

Either way, it might have gone down in history as even more of a classic pioneering work, anticipating the times.

Are you sure about this? I prefer the ambiguous nature of the series, although I'm aware "ambiguity" is the new deus ex machina for everything lately.

You're quite welcome! ;)

Ambiguity, in my experience, is sort of a built-in Japanese animation gimmick since times when Anno was a kid sitting on the other side of the glowing TV screen, so to speak... I'm thinking it probably dates back to times before and beyond animation itself. Personally, I think TV ep.24 doesn't even pull it off that well...

Oh, I am well aware many people would surely prefer the ambiguity. But isn't that the whole point of trolling? That was apparently also the point of airing ep.24 without, say, the swimming scene...?

But, although you can never be sure of anything in this life except death and taxes, I do think presenting the audience with a blatantly homowhut MALE main character in a 'shounen' anime would have been pioneering and ahead of the times, yes.

My only qualm with this setting (which I neglected to mention last time even though I meant to), would be that, since Shinji had been presented in a way pretty atypical for a stereotypical shounen hero, people might "package" him in a convenient whiny, girly boy = gay box.

Then again, EoE was still a long way to come, so maybe not...

[DummyPlug]

I knew he was gay... I think what people hated about it is that we weren't told right from the start. He started off a little like just a skinny nerd, and they spent most of the series building up hype about him having a relationship with either Rei or Asuka. And then all of a sudden in one episode they finally admit he was gay all the time.

Oh, right, the main protagonist is weak, whiny, and always emotional, so he must be gay, I mean there's absolutely no way a heterosexual guy can be that way, can it? All the Otakus... yup, they're secretly gay, that's what Hideaki Anno was getting at, so let's all sing the song together so they can feel okay about it!

No, I thought he was gay because he had all those chances to get laid (with the opposite sex) and never made a move... he did exactly the opposite. Now I understand why Asuka was so mad after the kiss! She realised he was gay. I know the whole "you won't even hold me" thing, but maybe she realised that he didn't do it because he wasn't aroused at all.

[esselfortium]

No, I thought he was gay because he had all those chances to get laid (with the opposite sex) and never made a move... he did exactly the opposite. Now I understand why Asuka was so mad after the kiss! She realised he was gay. I know the whole "you won't even hold me" thing, but maybe she realised that he didn't do it because he wasn't aroused at all.

...due to some combination of having his nose held and expecting her to break things off and hit him and call him a pervert any second?

[Great Genius Shinji-Sama]

No,No. Look ath Shinji/Asuka Relationship T&A on the Geektionary. He honestly felt that it meant NOTHING to her aslo the ambiguity rant on the Helltrain in EoE. He didnt react the way she wanted because he absolutely CANNOT read mixed signals. He took it at face value that it was nothing more then a GAME to Asuka and she really didnt have any feeling or interest in him at all.