Anno Khara Expo Interview: Eva Going Gundam; Films/TV/etc. From Different Directors Possible

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Re: Anno Khara Expo Interview: Eva Going Gundam; Films/TV/etc. From Different Directors Possible

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Postby kuribo-04 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:16 pm

View Original Postrobersora wrote:^
While I agree with the sentiment, when it's about a consumer product, like if a certain burger should return to the MacDonald's menu, I just think it's preposterous to argue about an artists decision of what to create next, when it's such a personal decision to make.

In that case reviews shouldn't exist, since they are basically suggestions of how a work might have been better/what doesn't work about it.
And film is a business. Anno is selling these through his company. It's a reality that Rebuild wouldn't exist if no one cared about Eva, or if he didn't know if people care about Eva because no one expressed their interest.

I dunno, I'd be glad as an artist if people are excited about what I do and feel engaged enough to try to guess where things could go next.
Add to that that fans discussing these thimgs might end up actually working on a franchise in some cases.
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Re: Anno Khara Expo Interview: Eva Going Gundam; Films/TV/etc. From Different Directors Possible

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Postby robersora » Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:50 pm

The concept of a consumer review of an artistic piece is kind of demented, I agree, but I guess if that's how some people react to art so be it. It definitely explains all the discourse around Star Wars I've seen on Twitter.

Either way, I will repeat myself now for the fifth time, I hope you understand: There is still a clear distinction to be made between analyze, talk, even review a product or trying to tell a person what to create.
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Re: Anno Khara Expo Interview: Eva Going Gundam; Films/TV/etc. From Different Directors Possible

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:23 pm

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:In that case reviews shouldn't exist, since they are basically suggestions of how a work might have been better/what doesn't work about it.
And film is a business. Anno is selling these through his company. It's a reality that Rebuild wouldn't exist if no one cared about Eva, or if he didn't know if people care about Eva because no one expressed their interest.

I dunno, I'd be glad as an artist if people are excited about what I do and feel engaged enough to try to guess where things could go next.
Add to that that fans discussing these thimgs might end up actually working on a franchise in some cases.

Yes, 100%. If I became a famous director, and people wanted to criticize my work in a respectful manner, I would be happy. It would mean that people are engaging with my movies, trying to get in my shoes instead of just blindly consuming whatever I put out. I'm a firm believer in Death of the Author: the audience are the only true arbiters of any work. If Anno really gets upset every time someone criticizes his work (which I highly doubt), I would find that to be incredibly petty and selfish.

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Re: Anno Khara Expo Interview: Eva Going Gundam; Films/TV/etc. From Different Directors Possible

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Postby kuribo-04 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:24 pm

That's where I disagree. When I say review, I talk about art analysis. Part of art analysis can be reaching the conclusion what art is uninspired or isn't. Gendo'sPapa was arguing more Eva would be uninspired, I disagreed.

The discourse on Twitter is about demanding something/acting like art being a certain way is somehow morally wrong, not about perceived quality. The anlaysis of perceived quality came when Star Wars IX reacted to the twitter discourse, adapted to it, and anybody who has interest in analyzing art was like "this is a terrible movie".

Was it wrong to point out that Star Wars IX sucks? It is the film JJ Abrams wanted to make after all.
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Re: Anno Khara Expo Interview: Eva Going Gundam; Films/TV/etc. From Different Directors Possible

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:32 pm

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:That's where I disagree. When I say review, I talk about art analysis. Part of art analysis can be reaching the conclusion what art is uninspired or isn't. Gendo'sPapa was arguing more Eva would be uninspired, I disagreed.

The discourse on Twitter is about demanding something/acting like art being a certain way is somehow morally wrong, not about perceived quality. The anlaysis of perceived quality came when Star Wars IX reacted to the twitter discourse, adapted to it, and anybody who has interest in analyzing art was like "this is a terrible movie".

Was it wrong to point out that Star Wars IX sucks? It is the film JJ Abrams wanted to make after all.

Just so everyone is clear, you were responding to Robersora, not me.

But that's another important distinction that should be made. Angry discourse on Twitter is not true respectful criticism. When you criticize properly, you actually analyze it with respect, looking at plot, editing, characters, themes, and other stuff. When you criticize like the people on Twitter, you yell and scream instead of understanding, acting like someone making a movie you didn't like is somehow worse than every war crime ever. True criticism is fine, and should be encouraged. Twitter criticism is just "bathroom graffiti," as Anno described it.

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Re: Anno Khara Expo Interview: Eva Going Gundam; Films/TV/etc. From Different Directors Possible

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Postby kuribo-04 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:33 pm

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote: If Anno really gets upset every time someone criticizes his work (which I highly doubt), I would find that to be incredibly petty and selfish.

There have been instances where he seemed bothered by fans, and it was justified IMO. But he has also bluntly said his art is partly fanservice, since he wants to give the people who pay something. You can disagree with his films being that, but it seems that's how he sees it.

He has also himself been pretty vocal about things he is a fan of. About Gundam, in fact.

There's also this:
https://wiki.evageeks.org/Statements_by_Evangelion_Staff#Hideaki_Anno:_Ghibli_ga_Ippai_Liner_Notes

Edit: Yeah that was answering robersora.
I had to think of bathroom graffiti too when thinking about twitter.
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
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Re: Anno Khara Expo Interview: Eva Going Gundam; Films/TV/etc. From Different Directors Possible

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Postby robersora » Tue Dec 22, 2020 5:53 pm

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:Yes, 100%. If I became a famous director, and people wanted to criticize my work in a respectful manner, I would be happy.

Trust me, having to listen to people who know it better despite never having even worked in the field gets super old very fast.

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:I'm a firm believer in Death of the Author: the audience are the only true arbiters of any work. If Anno really gets upset every time someone criticizes his work (which I highly doubt), I would find that to be incredibly petty and selfish.


Me too, but I differentiate between talking about a product already made and telling a person what to create.

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:That's where I disagree. When I say review, I talk about art analysis. Part of art analysis can be reaching the conclusion what art is uninspired or isn't. Gendo'sPapa was arguing more Eva would be uninspired, I disagreed.


And there's where it becomes a game of semantics. There's a huge gap between a consumer review, strict analysis and actually going into conversation with the artwork at hand.
Consumer reviews is something we just slowly get out of in video game discourse (think grading a game and taking about "how good the graphics" are), while proper analysis is the first step to actually starting an interesting conversation.
You guys were talking about what's the right direction for Anno to take in his artistic endeavors. That's just preposterous to me, as you both argued from a self-serving perspective, not taking into account that you are talking about the life of a human being.

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:Was it wrong to point out that Star Wars IX sucks? It is the film JJ Abrams wanted to make after all.

It's not wrong at all. It's just extremely superficial, boring and superfluous to talk about a movie this way. But Twitter is generally a cesspool of self-important edgy children, and the way the website is structured just exacerbates the worst in people, while simultaneously being super addicting. It's the Crack of our generation, lol.

View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:I had to think of bathroom graffiti too when thinking about twitter.

Even that is giving it too much credit, lmao.
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Re: Anno Khara Expo Interview: Eva Going Gundam; Films/TV/etc. From Different Directors Possible

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Postby kuribo-04 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:23 pm

I have to honestly say, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. I enjoy film analysis, and I think arguing where an artist/group of artists could/should go is a natural consequence of that. That it is an opinion is a given. Anno will never read any of this, if he did he probably wouldn't give a shit.

Anyway, I'm not doing anything different to what Anno himself does, like when he was arguing where Gundam should or shouldn't go in the essay he wrote for the Gundam Origins manga, or in the Ghibli text I shared. I think in both cases there is value to what he said.
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Re: Anno Khara Expo Interview: Eva Going Gundam; Films/TV/etc. From Different Directors Possible

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Postby robersora » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:51 pm

^
Well, I would argue that Anno as an industry professional who is leagues above Tomino giving honest advice to the scriptwriting catastrophe that is Gundam is a nice gesture.
I just think Anno should do whatever he wants and discussing it here is unhealthy navel-gazing of our own demands that will most likely be betrayed anyway.
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Re: Anno Khara Expo Interview: Eva Going Gundam; Films/TV/etc. From Different Directors Possible

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:16 pm

View Original Postrobersora wrote:^
Well, I would argue that Anno as an industry professional who is leagues above Tomino giving honest advice to the scriptwriting catastrophe that is Gundam is a nice gesture.
I just think Anno should do whatever he wants and discussing it here is unhealthy navel-gazing of our own demands that will most likely be betrayed anyway.

Then, why even have conversations about Eva in the first place? Not to assume too much, but I feel like you just don't like people criticizing Anno's decisions, and are using some weird thing about artistic intent to justify trying to shut down legitimate criticism and argument. Just because we're not industry professionals doesn't mean that we can't say anything.

Plus, like we already said a million times, Anno isn't reading these messages. We're using criticism as a way to engage with the work, not as a gesture of personal hatred towards the creator. I love Anno, and I love Eva. I just have some problems with them, and that's completely fine.

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Re: Anno Khara Expo Interview: Eva Going Gundam; Films/TV/etc. From Different Directors Possible

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Postby robersora » Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:29 pm

If I fail to get my point across after trying so many times with so many different words, is that on me or on you? This is not a rhetorical question.
I will try one last time.
I'm not talking about criticizing Anno's decisions it's about telling an artist what to create.
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Re: Anno Khara Expo Interview: Eva Going Gundam; Films/TV/etc. From Different Directors Possible

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:12 pm

View Original Postrobersora wrote:I'm not talking about criticizing Anno's decisions it's about telling an artist what to create.

Which are pretty much the same thing. Not exactly sure what you're getting at here.

But we should stop for now. I'm tired of arguing.

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Re: Anno Khara Expo Interview: Eva Going Gundam; Films/TV/etc. From Different Directors Possible

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Wed Dec 23, 2020 1:43 am

View Original Postrobersora wrote:Nobody is entitled to tell other people what to create. It's obnoxious, it's unproductive, it's wrongheaded.


This is an incredibly flippant and blatant misrepresentation of the discussion that was being had in this topic.

No one here, nor does anyone here frankly have the influence to do so, was "telling" anyone at Khara what to create. The discussion, before interrupted, was what we HOPE they do. I hope Khara uses their success and clout in their industry to make entirely original works that wouldn't get produced anywhere else. To try new things and either succeed or fail based on the execution of those ideas. Kuribo_04 hopes they create future works that fall under the Evangelion franchise umbrella. We have a difference of opinion but it was a robust, sometimes passionate, often all-over-the-place & messy I admit discussion about what we each HOPED the company would do going forward. I can't speak for Kuribo, but I can 100% guarantee that as someone who works as and with professional artists I have never nor would ever tell anyone what they HAVE to make. But - and of course in this case this wouldn't happen - the few times people have handed me two ideas for their next project and asked which I preferred I have given my recommendation. That was what the conversation here was essentially. It was a discussion about what we personally preferred and would like to see made in the future. Not an order of what to do as so grossly misrepresented.

And regardless of what Khara does next as a company it’s pretty much a given everyone on this forum - which is a literal place for the open sharing of opinions - will be more than willing and open to give them the benefit of the doubt and watch the final product when finished and engage with them on the level of what they say or achieve.

But fans conversing about what they'd like an artist they respect to make or attempt to make is not a verboten topic. That is not censorship of the artist. That's a dialogue. If I, a fan of Filmmaker X, said I really hope they made Project A and they instead go with Project B, even though I don't know the personal or situational reasons why they made that decision, I as a fan of their work am allowed to feel letdown, disappointed or disinterested. Those are all rational responses. Being a fan is not engaging in blind following. Being a fan means engaging with the work of artists you respect and wanting/hoping they surprise you, inspire you, and that they do what only they can do at the best of their abilities. If an artist starts producing subpar work or stops challenging themselves and just coasting by on their skills the fan saying they no longer find that artist's work inspiring or even good or is not a “betrayal”.

Now of course Hideaki Anno and Khara are not examples of artists who have lost their way - they have been doing excellent work and I admire and am inspired by what they do immensely - but my saying that I hope they make original works unaffiliated with the name brand franchise that helped build their company going forward is not being “spoilt”. It's an expression of an opinion and desire for what I HOPE to see. And if hypothetically they were to proceed with another Eva project my expressing an initial disappointment or disinterest in that choice is entirely valid.

Now yeah, it's a different matter entirely if having an initial disappointment, or even a criticism of a finished work, is said to the artists face or at them \ through a social media platform like Twitter BUT since no one on EvaGeeks has admitted to being on the board at Khara I think it’s safe to say this type of dialogue should offend no one.

No one here was telling Khara what to do. We were sharing opinions. Yeah, the talk in here gets messy and yeah we often get off track or repeat ourselves or misunderstand one another but at no point was anyone expressing personal ownership over Khara's body of work and future.

If we're being "blunt" robersora, the only person telling people what to do has been you. You jumped into the discussion, called people "brats", figuring that rude not constructive insult would somehow end the conversation and when it didn't proceeded to repeatedly misrepresent the discussion that was being had to fit your narrative.

Discussing what we hope our favorite filmmakers, painters, writers or whatever create next isn’t any more “navel-gazing” than talking about we hope their current projects WILL DO or have done to us. If those topics of discussion are invalid or wrong we may as well shut the forum down cause doing anything with art besides consuming it must be an offensive act.

Honestly, it's the attack on the sharing of opinions that upsets me. The conversation had been civil. It would have welcomed real inclusion. But rudely calling fellow members on here "spoilt babies" and entirely misrepresenting what the ongoing discussion was to fit an agenda is unbecoming of this forum which I've found over the years to be a really welcoming one towards genuine discussion. An honest, if incredibly messy, discussion was being had.

And the thing is I do agree - and stated so when the topic first began in the Rebuild forum - that a conversation about what Khara is going to do next is pretty much an unnecessary and fruitless one to be had at the moment. They can do ANYTHING. The whole conversation is pure conjecture. There's nothing to ground the topic on. It’s a Fog of Maybe. Maybe next they’ll do a movie? Maybe a TV series? Maybe it’ll be New Evangelion? Maybe it won’t? Maybe Anno will be directing again? Maybe he won’t? Could it maybe be a project by Tsurumaki? Or maybe a first time director? All we really know regarding Khara's future is the Shin Ultraman movie is next summer and if Covid didn't gunk things up something is to be released in 2022…. maybe.

But while I think it's a foolish conversation to have right now and I would be open to saying that I would never call the people idiots or entitled for having it.

Whatever. I'm disappointed.
Last edited by Gendo'sPapa on Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Anno Khara Expo Interview: Eva Going Gundam; Films/TV/etc. From Different Directors Possible

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Postby kuribo-04 » Wed Dec 23, 2020 1:58 am

Kuribo_04 hopes they create future works that fall under the Evangelion franchise umbrella. We have a difference of opinion but it was a robust, sometimes passionate, often all-over-the-place & messy I admit discussion about what we each HOPED the company would do going forward. I can't speak for Kuribo, but I can 100% guarantee that as someone who works as and with a professional artist I have never nor would ever tell anyone what they HAVE to make.

This is the mindset I was approaching this with and I understood you also had.
I'm not an Ultraman fan, and maybe Anno tackling other stuff would seem more exciting to me, but I know what it means to Anno, so I'm still happy for him making that choice (maybe Ultraman isn't the best example, it's not that I habe anything against it, I just haven't seen Ultraman).
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Re: Anno Khara Expo Interview: Eva Going Gundam; Films/TV/etc. From Different Directors Possible

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Postby robersora » Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:07 am

@Gendo'sPapa:
Thank You for actually engaging with the point I was trying to make.
You clarifying that you were talking about what you HOPE to see instead of what Anno SHOULD make is a big difference to me. I just hope Anno creates whatever he wants, and I wanted to communicate that I dislike the mindset of arguing about what someone should create.
I also want to apologize for offending you with my language, that was uncalled for.
I had this picture of children in the backseat of a car arguing about if they wanna go to McDonald's or Burger King, while the driver actually wants to just go home and rest.

Either way, I can see that my argument was pedantic at best, or just very badly formulated, as I still think that what I meant to say makes sense, but I can see how in the course of badly communicating my point I misconstrued your argument.
I hope you don't see me effectively shutting your discussion down as some kind of moderator power play, this was just my personal stance on the matter.

To conclude, I failed to communicate properly and hurt your feelings in the process, I apologize for that.
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Re: Anno Khara Expo Interview: Eva Going Gundam; Films/TV/etc. From Different Directors Possible

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Postby Gendo'sPapa » Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:24 am

Thank you for being so understanding, robersora. Apology accepted and greatly appreciated. Thank you.
I just want and am glad there are no hard feelings whatsoever. Disagreements happen - while I'm sure some of my earliest posts are more aggressive I still often have to bite my tongue and scratch out an antagonist or straight up mean comment in my posts before I put them up on the forum if the topic is a frustrating one - but I'm just glad this was all just a big misunderstanding. :D

EvaGeeks isn't perfect but I really love it here and enjoy the wide variety of discussions and viewpoints entirely different from my own that are shared here and I hope we all have many more stimulating, if sometimes messy or just unfocused, conversations here!

My final note on the topic of the thread is while I still do think talking about what Khara does next is too early since we have zero context to build the conversation off of, I do think the one thing we can all agree on is no matter what they end up doing next we all WANT Khara to continue creating!

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Re: Anno Khara Expo Interview: Eva Going Gundam; Films/TV/etc. From Different Directors Possible

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Postby robersora » Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:31 pm

^
Chapeau!
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Re: Anno Khara Expo Interview: Eva Going Gundam; Films/TV/etc. From Different Directors Possible

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:53 am

Since Anime Now! is no longer online, and the question of "what comes after 3.0+1.0" has been coming up a lot, I just wanted to provide a link to the full, archived article:

https://web.archive.org/web/20161209231 ... /03/000006

I've also archived it on my site:

http://www.evamonkey.com/writings/river ... nchise.php

Thought this might be helpful.

Also, ultimately, this is coming from an 88-page booklet from the exhibition. Anybody know if this booklet was ever scanned, archived, or otherwise translated?

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Re: Anno Khara Expo Interview: Eva Going Gundam; Films/TV/etc. From Different Directors Possible

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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:02 am

On the Evangelion as the new Gundam thing. After 25 years, there were a ton more Gundams than there have been Evangelions. It does mean we've so far been spared Evangelion SEED Destiny, though I'd still be amused by Mobile Fighter G Evangelion.
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Re: Anno Khara Expo Interview: Eva Going Gundam; Films/TV/etc. From Different Directors Possible

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Postby Blockio » Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:33 pm

Evangelion Seed Destiny would probably be Anima, except so far it doesn't look like the last fifth will be good...
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