Sub vs. Dub Stuff (Kurikaeshi, eien ni...)

[Reichu]

you have to read what's being translated and watch what's happening in a certain scene at the same time which is flat out ridiculous to me.

It seems like you're exaggerating the problem a bit. Most anime are "inanimate" enough of the time that reading the subtitles won't have resulted in you visually missing anything, aside from a bunch of lip flaps.

On the other hand, if the scene is busy, in my own experience it's just as difficult to catch all of the dialogue by ear as it is by eye. At times, much harder -- to the point that I got into the habit of putting on subtitles for things that are already in English. (Some of the people in my family have caught this bug, too.)

Perhaps it's differences in people's sensory/information processing abilities that result in the variety of viewing preferences that we see...

[Eva 04]

It seems like you're exaggerating the problem a bit. Most anime are "inanimate" enough of the time that reading the subtitles won't have resulted in you visually missing anything, aside from a bunch of lip flaps.

On the other hand, if the scene is busy, in my own experience it's just as difficult to catch all of the dialogue by ear as it is by eye. At times, much harder -- to the point that I got into the habit of putting on subtitles for things that are already in English. (Some of the people in my family have caught this bug, too.)

Perhaps it's differences in people's sensory/information processing abilities that result in the variety of viewing preferences that we see...

Perhaps I was but that's how I feel when I watch some anime with subs. Sure,there are some parts you dont need to pay attention to but I like to pay attention even if the scene the line is being spoken in isnt very interesting.

[Bagheera]

It seems like you're exaggerating the problem a bit. Most anime are "inanimate" enough of the time that reading the subtitles won't have resulted in you visually missing anything, aside from a bunch of lip flaps.

On the other hand, if the scene is busy, in my own experience it's just as difficult to catch all of the dialogue by ear as it is by eye. At times, much harder -- to the point that I got into the habit of putting on subtitles for things that are already in English. (Some of the people in my family have caught this bug, too.)

Perhaps it's differences in people's sensory/information processing abilities that result in the variety of viewing preferences that we see...

I've had that problem as well. I like using subtitles because it's easier for me to catch everything that's said. The good ones also translate signs and such, which is helpful.

[SEELE-01]

Well, I just watched the dubbed version of both movies...
I must say I'm pretty satisfied with both, the subtitles I had for 1.0 were kinda lousy (they dated from 2008) and as for 2.0, I had the subtitle file and corrected it myself according to what I read in this forum...

When it comes to the dub there are a few scenes that change completely their meaning...
For example: the 1.0 subtitles I have on the scene were Shinji is on the collapsed road, rigth before Nerv's SS get him seem to imply that he was going to kill himself, while the in the dub he just say's something like "OK you won, take me back to Misato"...
In 2.0, the most interesting one is Rei about to blast hersel in Eva 00: where the subs read something like "Even if he doesn't pilot again, I'll give my best... Because..." the dub says "I can do this, for him, so that he doesn't have to pilot again"...
Now, both of them are technically rigth, watching any of them really changes the way the film goes...

My point is, watching subbed versions (no matter how bad) and dubs (no matter how "bad")sometimes helps you see things from a different perspective...
I watch the subs mostly, but sometimes I like to listen to them in a language I actually undestand... It's funnier that way...
Now, there are animes where so much is going on that you can hardly read subtitles and see the scenes... Have you tried to watch "He is my master" subbed?

And finally, there's not such a thing as a "bad" voice acting, remember, any dub could be worse... It could be 4Kids'...

[Reichu]

arael: Sounds like you landed some of the more Engrishy fansubs...

[SEELE-01]

Yup... And they helped me understand the dammed movies for like 3 years...

[gatotsu911]

We need some Warren Peace up in here.

[Fazmotron]

Righto, I may as well shove my opinions into this thread and see what happens.

I think the prevalence of Anime Dubs really show the immaturity of the anime industry in English speaking countries. While I think dubs could still be useful for shows aimed specifically at children, such as Pokémon, because children may not be able to read fast enough, or are just unlikely to watch a show that forces them to read, shows and films that are obviously for a more mature audience should be given the dignity of a simple subbed release. You wouldn't watch a classic film such as Seven Samurai with English dubs, so why should an Anime film or series be any different.
Dubs were ofcourse very important for the anime industry many years ago, where people where unlikely to watch an animation that wasn't in English. I saw Evangelion for the first time on DVD with English dubs on, and watched it for a couple of years like that, but as I matured I developed an appreciation for the original Japanese performances and have not watched it in English since. I think that the anime industry itself needs to mature and stop relying on dubs.
I also think laziness is a key factor the preference of dubs over subs. People just don't want to read. Also, for those saying that they miss things on screen when they're reading dubs, you just have to get used to watching dubbed films and anime, start watching more subs and you'll miss less and less as you get used to it, which really doesn't take very long.
Finally, my personal opinion on dubs is I can't stand them. Whenever I hear a dub of something it always feels wrong, and never sits right with me, even if it's an anime I've never seen before, it just sounds off. Now, this might be because I've studied Japanese for a number of years now and am more able to pick up the subtleties of the language better, but that's just how I prefer my anime.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Feel free to shoot them to the ground.

[Shogo-Kun]

Here's my shtick on the whole Sub vs Dub thing:

You wanna watch subs, that's fine! You wanna watch dubs, that's fine too! More power to ya! BUT DON'T FORCE PEOPLE TO WATCH IT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER!! All that's gonna do is deter people away from anime as a whole! For those who push subs or dubs on people, your arguments are starting to become pretensious nonsense. And why should anime not be released with a dub? Anime is a business, and like any business, it needs to have a product that appeals to the common shmoe. Not everyone speaks Japanese or cares for anything that's not in their language. That's why dubs exist, to increase market appeal. Anime is already a niche market as it is. Why should companies make it harder for themselves? And besides, if you can't stand the English track, CHANGE THE DAMN AUDIO TRACK AND TURN THE SUBTITLES ON INSTEAD OF COMPLAINING!!! IT'S THAT SIMPLE, NUMBNUTS!!!

[Tarnsman]

And finally, there's not such a thing as a "bad" voice acting, remember, any dub could be worse... It could be 4Kids'...

I recently sat through the Mobile Suit Gundam Trilogy and Garzey's Wing dubbed. Yes, there is such a thing as bad voice acting. The "it could be worse" excuse doesn't fly. To use hyperbole: being burned alive is worse than being raped, but that doesn't make rape alright. If the voice acting leads to a lowered opinion of a show, or in some cases, me hating a show that I would normally find alright, that's bad voice acting.

@Fazmotron: Just to play devil's advocate: Shinichi Watanabe, when asked about his opinion of the sub vs dub debate, said that he never intended for anyone to read his shows. (Funny, since his shows usually feature such word-salad dialogue to where subtitles help). So technically, someone who doesn't speak Japanese, would be honoring the creator's wishes by watching it in English.

@Shogo-Kun: Because dubs are evil, and they ruin the original work, and only the mentally retarded watch them, and their very existence corrupts everything, and they make DVD/BDs cost more, and AND most importantly, they make me waste time changing the audio track to Japanese when I first put in the disc.

[gatotsu911]

@Fazmotron:
The Short Version:
- Dubbing animation (especially anime) =/= dubbing live action. Comparing them is unwise.
- You admit that you first got into anime by watching shows dubbed. You've just explained a huge portion of why they exist.
- Re: "laziness" - I've already laid out in great detail, on this thread and the one it spun off from, why someone who isn't stupid or lazy would want to watch a dub. Even if you can read subtitles quickly, watching something in your own language vs. reading it in another are two tangibly different experiences. Both bastardize the original creation in their own ways, and both can be fulfilling in their own ways.
- As far as I can tell (and most people I have spoken to who are fluent in both English and Japanese confirm this), anime voice acting in Japanese is often around as stilted and over-the-top as it is in English, and dubs in the last few years have attained a level at which in many (albeit not all) cases the differences in acting quality between the two are negligible. So some productions may have "subtle nuances" that can be lost in translation, but I wouldn't say it's the norm.

[Fazmotron]

- Dubbing animation (especially anime) =/= dubbing live action. Comparing them is unwise.

Why?
Apart from it being easier to dub an animation, why should the vocal performance of an actor be discounted as less important in an animation.

[Shogo-Kun]

@Tarnsman: Wow, dude. Your comment just proved my point about how pretenstious this whole argument is. I'll just leave this thread with this:
MY OPINION OF SUBBIES JUST GOT LOWER.

[Bagheera]

@Tarnsman: Wow, dude. Your comment just proved my point about how pretenstious this whole argument is. I'll just leave this thread with this:
MY OPINION OF SUBBIES JUST GOT LOWER.

We're crushed, I'm sure.

Meanwhile, with that post our opinion of you just dropped as well. Learn to spellcheck dude.

[gatotsu911]

Again, gonna make this short, because I promised myself I wouldn't spend hours getting dragged into this debate anymore (nothing personal Fazmotron)...

- In live action the actors create the characters. In animation the animators create the characters, who exist independently of the actors. Quoth Roger Ebert: "Little Nemo can't really talk!"
- In anime in particular, the vocal performances are typically recorded after or independently of the animation, and only on rare occasions is the animation specifically synched to the vocal performances. Hence the Japanese are in many ways already treating this local medium as they would a dub of a foreign film. The vocal performances are not an inextricable element of the onscreen product.

Just to clarify, I respect people who are purists and want to experience every piece of media in as close to its original form as possible. I'm just making the point that dubs aren't (or at least aren't by definition) this horrible perversion of anime that some make them out to be.

@Shogo: Please stop. You're making this much harder for me. Also please get your sarcasm detector checked, something is seriously wrong with it.

[Reichu]

Shogo-kun: Please cease the hyper-defensive posts; they don't add anything. And what gatotsu said about the sarcasm detector.

Bagheera: You're not helping matters, you know. :p

Time to remind everybody: Before you hit "submit", ask yourself, "does my post really contribute anything to this discussion?"

[Bagheera]

Alright, fine. But I really don't see why the debate even exists, since the people involved are arguing different things -- as far as I can tell subbies are arguing based on merit and dubbies are arguing based on preference. There's really no way for the two camps to meaningfully intersect.

Me, I want an accurate translation of the original source material, full stop. Subs do a better job of doing this than dubs do, so there's nothing else to talk about for me.

[Tarnsman]

Why?
Apart from it being easier to dub an animation, why should the vocal performance of an actor be discounted as less important in an animation.

In addition to what gatotsu911 said. Voice actors, in anime in particular, are also limited by having to match the animation. The real downside of being a post-production dub and not true prelay animation like western cartoons, isn't that the flaps don't match the words, it's that the flaps don't match the tone of the performance. There is an odd disconnect created when you have a set of flaps for extremely loud yelling set to mild annoyance.

@Shogo-kun: Sarcasm. Learn it.

Edit: @Bagheera: I don't think anyone will try to argue that dubbing is more accurate to the original than subtitles. If someone does want to try and make that argument, I'd love to see it. Or at least have some of whatever drug you would have to be on to be that high.

[Mr. Tines]

With subs, I can swallow the usual line of text whole before the speaker has uttered more than a syllable; that, any fragments I can parse out of the Japanese, and the seiyuu's voice all merge into a unified whole, where it all sounds appropriate.

With dubs, I usually hear bored Americans phoning in a script reading; and while the end result may usually be tolerable (if there's no other option), Japanese voices are more euphonious than that. I have been pleasantly surprised by dubs once (the Steamboy dub I saw when I couldn't schedule getting to the subbed showing with its actual regional English accents).

[Bagheera]

With dubs, I usually hear bored Americans phoning in a script reading; and while the end result may usually be tolerable (if there's no other option), Japanese voices are more euphonious than that. I have been pleasantly surprised by dubs once (the Steamboy dub I saw when I couldn't schedule getting to the subbed showing with its actual regional English accents).

No kidding? That'd be worth tracking down just for that.