Mudding the water: back to Gendo-Shinji estrangement

[AuraTwilight]

How can someone without any shread of humanity possibly save it? FWIW if SEELE had made a special arrangement with Gendo that allowed him to see Yui again, I believe he would've done whatever they wanted; no questions asked. Hell, I say he would've entered into a contract with the angels if he felt it could get him closer to realizing his goals. Apparently, the rest of humanity can go suck it. As far as he's concerned, it's every man for himself, or at least that seems to be the ideological position he adopted fifteen years ago while abandoning everyone to their fates in Antarctica and escaping just in time to save his own ass.

Funny, it was SEELE who actually made a contract with an Angel to further their goals and actually set up most of the deaths we see. Gendo really just lets it happen at most, he's not really CULPABLE, so much as guilty by lack of action, which is completely different and possessing of entirely different ethical implications.

Now here's what I don't see. The supposedly wonderful individual (teacher?) that Gendo decided was responsible enough to take care of his kid. I mean, where is he? Had the guy even shown up yet or did Shinji have to wait there for hours on his own until somebody finally claimed him (maybe that's the basis of the playground sequence from EoE)? I would expect most toddlers that age have an adult guardian either holding their hand or standing nearby to make sure the kid doesn't accidentally make contact with the third rail or get into some other kind of trouble, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

Shinji appears to have ridden the train by himself. Why, we can't say; I've entertained the notion that the teacher may not have been informed of Shinji's coming, or he did know, but didn't know he'd be arriving unaccompanied.

Whoever was supposed to be looking after Shinji during his childhood might have done an adequate job. Then again, years later when Gendo finally realizes that he has a use for his son, nobody accompanies Shinji on his journey to Tokyo III. He's just put on a train and sent into a warzone with zero supervision. From the time he arrives until the end of the series, his former caretaker never even tries to contact him to see how he's doing. When Shinji moves into Misato's apartment, we don't see him unpack any pictures of his former guardian or other keepsakes from where he used to live. Shinji never really discusses his former family life much (we don't even get a glimpse of it during his introspective sequences when he's reviewing his experiences). What I'm suggesting is that maybe this teacher Gendo selected was rather indifferent toward Shinji (perhaps it partially explains why he feels so worthless and alone), but in the end it made no difference to Gendo, since he was just as uninvolved.

Shinji does offhandedly comment that his legal guardian was kind to him, but they never really connected. Also, he has no relevance to current events, so he got shafted in the depiction department.

Originally, when Shinji agreed to pilot for NERV, Gendo assigned him to live in an apartment by himself, just like Rei. Even though Shinji ends up moving in with Misato, who quickly assumes the role of his guardian, Gendo was quite content leaving him to twist in the wind, all alone in a new city where he doesn't know anybody. To all the people claiming that Gendo abandoned Shinji because he was doing what was best for his son or that he was concerned for his safety, whenever I take a look at the Commander's track record, I cannot agree.

With someone with as poor social skills as Gendo, he might literally not realize anything wrong with this decision, especially since he knows nothing of Shinji's personality. "Um...shit, what to do with him? He's not staying with me, he'd refuse anyway. Um. Rei does pretty fantastically by herself. I guess Shinji could adapt too. Oh, Misato's going to take him? Fuck, yo, I didn't even know she liked kids. Fine, go for it."

If Gendo is so concerned about Shinji's safety, why does he want him going into battle against angels in the first place?

Oh, come the fuck on. This is a loaded keg if I ever saw one. Shinji has to fight because no one else can. Units 00 and 01 are the only active Evangelions NERV has access to. What the fuck are they supposed to do, wait the several months for Unit 02 to finish construction and shipping while Sachiel's having his way with Tokyo-3?

People seem to act like Gendo has an alternative option to every unlikable decision he makes. He doesn't.

Why didn't he do everything in his power to get other Evas/pilots on the roster before calling on his son at the last minute (even though he has an entire classroom full of potential candidates that he doesn't tap into until episode 17)?

None of them are Yui's children.

Why not at least contact him sooner so he could get some training before going into battle?

They were kind of caught by surprise.

What about asking his Section 2 agents to do more than just sit back and watch when Shinji gets his ass kicked at school?

Yea, and then Shinji (and the fans) would complain that Shinji is kept lonely and isolated because he's surrounded by bodyguard goons intimidating anyone from making friends with him. Fucking seriously.

I think it's made clear on several occasions that Gendo can't be bothered to care about anything other than himself. He ran away from Shinji because the kid represents everything that terrifies him; depression, loneliness, obligation and morality. All the stuff he didn't want to be inconvenienced to have to consider. He's not interested in protecting the world. He just wants to protect his precious scenario and if he has to sacrifice his kid or anyone else to achieve his endgame, he won't hesitate to give the order.

I don't know, he seems to give a hell of a lot of shit for Rei, though his reasons are debatable. And on atleast two occasions makes some effort to be a little nice to the kid, and both times don't go well. Though it doesn't excuse it, form Gendo's perspective I figure he thinks "Well, Shinji doesn't want me anyway, so why should I waste my time? I'm busy."

[NemZ]

The feeling I got was that Gendo never intended to use Shinji at all, only calling him in because of Rei's accident then keeping him around because he was surprisingly effective at it.

Why they didn't just fish out a fresh Rei rather than let the broken one heal is a mighty big question, though.

[AuraTwilight]

Why they didn't just fish out a fresh Rei rather than let the broken one heal is a mighty big question, though.

Maybe popping out a fresh Rei isn't very easy. How long did it take for Shinji to finally meet Rei III? A week, maybe?

[Azathoth]

Maybe popping out a fresh Rei isn't very easy. How long did it take for Shinji to finally meet Rei III? A week, maybe?

It's the same day, isn't it? No more than a few days pass between episodes 22 and 26.

I would say that the difficulty is probably that one Rei has to die before another one can be brought out of the fishtank. Gendou, for all his dickery, hardly seems the type to execute teenage girls in their hospital beds.

[CyberXIII]

Before I post, I'd just like to say that I have never liked Gendo, and probably never will. He's a terrible father, and a ruthless sociopathic bastard.

Now that that's out of the way, honestly I think he's a man that doesn't have any good options. To begin with, Yui's "death" more or less destroyed what remnants of sanity he had. After this, he's so wrapped up in the past and trying so desperately to regain what he's lost that he's willing to do anything to get what he wants. He can't move on past his wife's death, and that eventually destroyed him. Now he's a near-emotionless tyrant that will stop at nothing to start 3I and see Yui again, humanity be damned.

The way he treats everyone like tools, particularly Shinji, is the main point of contention among viewers, imo. On the one hand, he's pretty much the worst father since Darth Vader. He abandons his child rather than accept that particular responsibility. Then there's the fact that he's partially responsible for Rei being a near-emotionless, practically suicidal doll at the start of the series. On top of that, he threw Touji and Asuka under the bus the moment they were no longer useful. And he definitely was enjoying himself when Bardiel died.

Now, the only reason he's not a black-and-white villain is that he's also trying desperately to stop SEELE from initiating their own version of 3I and killing us all. The funny bit that everyone who brings this up forgets is that he's gonna do the same damn thing, only with a different set of triggers. He's not trying to stop the disaster, he wants to control it out of an obsession with bringing his wife back.

Is he a sympathetic tragic hero gripped by some serious trauma or an insane selfish dick that needed a bullet in the head before he doomed us all? It's up to the viewer, but notice that previous sentence could also describe someone else...

[Mr. Tines]

The funny bit that everyone who brings this up forgets is that he's gonna do the same damn thing

The "Gendo's GOOD END" scenario from the NGE 2 is pretty heavily signalled in the series; and contrasts greatly with the "SEELE BAD END".

[Azathoth]

The funny bit that everyone who brings this up forgets is that he's gonna do the same damn thing, only with a different set of triggers. He's not trying to stop the disaster, he wants to control it out of an obsession with bringing his wife back.

It's not true at all that he's trying to do the same thing. Gendou's goals are very different from Seele's - indeed, so different that they could easily be cast in a heroic light if not for all the shit he did to achieve them. A man loses the woman he loves in a manner that seems to him horrible and unjust, and so dedicates his entire life to regain her, ready to sacrifice the entire world if need be, just to be with her again. That's the plot of the last arc of Gurren Lagann, in case you didn't notice. Or the last bit of Rebuild 2.22, for that matter. The reason why Gendou (and ReShinji) come off as dicks while Simon appears heroic and manly is because Gurren Lagann does not accurately portray what happens when you concentrate on a fundamentally selfish desire to the exclusion of all else.

Simon doesn't have to sacrifice the people around him to achieve his goals. If a sacrifice is needed, they go willingly. If not, he just gets more Spiral power together and kicks the shit out of whatever's in his way. Gendou doesn't get that break. He, like such a large number of body-pillow-hugging friendless otaku, is a romantic to the point of insanity when given the opportunity.

But it's unfair to compare his goal, which is basically to tang everyone and then untang them as soon as he's got Yui back, to Seele's "let's all become god and lose our identity in painless netherworld of cowardice" bitch-out solution to the human condition.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Gendo's plans are vague. All we really know is he doesn't want to kill off humanity/life ("Death gives life to nothing"). And that he wants to reunite (and stay?? eg, "Take me to Yui's side.") with Yui in Eva-01.

[CyberXIII]

@Azathoth
No, the plot of the second arc was the classic "damsel-in-distress" idea mixed with "save-the-planet-from-aliens" with a lot of originality plugged into it. Simon was never going to sacrifice the planet, in fact the first thing he does after breaking out of prison is stop the moon from falling. He's going to save Nia, yes, but not at the expense of everyone else, unlike Gendo and maybe ReShinji. (I still don't buy that.)

He would have gone by himself but his friends chose to go with him. Even if the Anti-Spirals hadn't kidnapped Nia, Simon would have still gone after them so they wouldn't destroy the world. He's got more on his mind than just Nia's kidnapping, and it shows when he's trying desperately to get the CGL functional so no one else has to die for him. He also recognizes that Nia's brainwashed and he may very well have to kill her (remember the prison scene?) It's plenty accurate, if a bit more idealistic.

Gendo and Shinji, conversely, show the darker side of this. Not necessarily more realistic, but darker. Simon has a network of friends to keep him sane, and that's why he was able to move on when Nia died. Gendo and Shinji don't have that luxury, especially Gendo. Shinji does have Touji and Kensuke, but he mainly just tags along with them. Asuka sees him as a rival and Rei's indifferent to him.

[Azathoth]

No, the plot of the second arc was the classic "damsel-in-distress" idea mixed with "save-the-planet-from-aliens" with a lot of originality plugged into it.

>Gurren Lagann
>originality

But rather, my point is that the only difference between the melding of "damsel in distress" and "save the planet from aliens" in TTGL and NGE is that in one it's presented as possible without the need to sacrifice something and in one it isn't. It's a choice on the author's part how to portray it, as heroic or sinister. I'm sure that if Anno had wanted to present ReShinji's actions in saving Rei as genuinely, no-strings-attached heroic, the same way as Simon's are - he could have done that. It would have taken changes to the way the work is presented, hiding and revealing different things to the viewer - but it could have been done. Instead we get something that (I hope) is intended to be ironic and ambiguous, juxtaposing Shinji's heroic-seeming actions with his earlier failings and the current destruction he's wreaking. Similarly, Gendou's singular devotion to reclaiming Yui could have been presented as heroic if Anno had wanted; however, by introducing a variety of pieces of information (most crushingly that Yui herself did not want to be "rescued") he shows us that in fact, we are to interpret Gendou's actions as being selfish and not heroic at all.

Simon was never going to sacrifice the planet, in fact the first thing he does after breaking out of prison is stop the moon from falling. He's going to save Nia, yes, but not at the expense of everyone else, unlike Gendo and maybe ReShinji. (I still don't buy that.)

It's hinted very strongly that, regardless of his intent, he would eventually have caused the Spiral Nemesis had the Anti-Spiral not unintentionally taught him the truth: that he was not god and could not do what he pleased just because he possessed such power. This is why I felt the comparison to ReShinji is apt. ReShinji's not trying to kill everyone and destroy the world. He just feels crushing apathy towards it that leads him to declare it acceptable losses in the event of it getting in the way of his goals. Simon isn't apathetic to the world, exactly - but he certainly wants to save Nia more than, say, he wants to stay and protect Earth (and part of this, I feel, is a bit of a weakness in writing; why doesn't the Anti-Spiral simply destroy Earth as soon as they leave the real universe? Surely that would inflict a little ZETTAITEKI ZETSUBOU on the Dai-Gurren-Dan), and eventually his determination to save Nia would quite likely have wound up destroying not just Earth but the entire universe - and it's not until Simon learns the Anti-Spiral's lesson and gives up on his power by letting Nia go that he shows his true heroism or alternatively despicable weakness of character that has pervaded the show by sacrificing of himself for the sake of the greater universe. Simon's not trying to get anybody killed, but they do die regardless, and he winds up having to make a triage choice. For all that he proclaimed that he'd save the woman and the universe both - in the end he realizes that he cannot, without proving the Anti-Spiral's worst fears true. So he gives up on the woman. Gendou doesn't. ReShinji has yet to make a final choice but it's not looking good.

[CyberXIII]

@Azathoth

What you just said in that first paragraph Tvtropes summed up easily.
TTGL=Well-written Reconstruction; NGE=Well-Written if polarizing Deconstruction

Gurren Lagann was a callback to all the old tropes, themes and cliches that pervaded the super robot genre before NGE came along and tore all that apart, with just enough original flavor to keep people interested. NGE is a darker deconstruction designed to show those themes in a more negative light, as in "these are all the things that could go wrong if this genre was real". TTGL, meanwhile, was basically a response saying "these are all the things that could go RIGHT with this genre if it was real".

Onto the point you mentioned about Simon causing the Spiral Nemesis....first, actually you brought up a good point. The Anti-Spiral could've destroyed the earth....but didn't, and there's a good reason for it. The Anti-Spiral's motivation in life is to protect the universe from Spiral Power and prevent the Spiral Nemesis. Destroying an insigificant mudball that can't produce Spiral Power at large wouldn't help that cause. Think about it; Simon and co. are the biggest threat and the only ones that can generate enough spiral power to pose a danger of causing the SN. That's why the AS focused all his energies on killing them instead.

As for the comparison to Gendo, I don't know if this one works, and you said the reason yourself. Simon's willing to save Nia, not drag her back from the dead. As he put it, "Dead people stay dead". Secondly, even if Nia hadn't been brainwashed and kidnapped Simon and co. would have had to go after the AS so the latter wouldn't, as you suggested, blow up the planet in order to kill Simon, who again is the greatest source of Spiral Power. That's why he doesn't wait to stay and guard the home front with Rossiu; he's the one with the bullseye on his forehead. I fail to see any "weakness of character" here.


Simon and Shinji are two sides of the same coin. In the first half of the series Simon basically IS Shinji in everything but name. The only real difference is that Simon isn't a neurotic mess and Shinji doesn't have a drill. After Kamina's death, however, the differences become far more obvious. Simon throws a pity party, like Shinji, but whereas Shinji's depressions finally break him, Simon goes in the opposite direction and follows in Kamina's footsteps, becoming a selfless (if somewhat less intelligent than Shinji) hero. . Honestly, every time someone introduces a protagonist with so much as a cigarette habit people paint him or her as a selfish bastard.

All this, of course, is taking what the AS said at face value and not considering the fact that he might be lying his amorphous ass off. He has every reason to lie; the same story worked the first time and turned Lordgenome into the tyrant from the first arc.

[Azathoth]

TTGL=Well-written Reconstruction; NGE=Well-Written if polarizing Deconstruction

That doesn't address my point at all, which was that goals aren't necessarily heroic or villainous; rather, we see them based on how the author chooses to portray them.

Destroying an insigificant mudball that can't produce Spiral Power at large wouldn't help that cause.

Every single human possesses their own Spiral Power; it will only get stronger over time as they grow and evolve. In addition, they know he's out there and have declared themselves in revolt against him. He can materialize as many Mugann in there as he likes; without Gurren Lagann, what are they going to do to stop him?

I fail to see any "weakness of character" here.

Simply put, Simon has no personal convictions; he simply absorbs the ideology of whoever speaks with the most confidence. Kamina until he dies, Nia until she leaves, Rossiu until he shuts up. When Nia and Rossiu are finally both out of the picture, we see a little bit of Simon's true will - but it's just to get Nia back so he has someone's ideology to parasitize again. And when he runs into the Anti-Spiral, he winds up accepting his theory of the universe and Spiral Power as true virtually without question - despite the fact that he's fighting a war against him. And then he goes home, loses Nia, and decides to stick to the Anti-Spiral's way by just keeping himself and his potential bottled up for fear of upsetting the status quo. Anti-Spiral gets the moral victory.

It was more of a personal quibble about Simon being called absolutely heroic and not really relevant to my argument, which is why I smalltexted it.

In fact, seeing as how all of this is entirely parenthetical, why do I even care?

Parting shot:

Simon throws a pity party, like Shinji, but whereas Shinji's depressions finally break him, Simon goes in the opposite direction and follows in Kamina's footsteps, becoming a selfless (if somewhat less intelligent than Shinji) hero.

And yet Shinji, despite being beaten into insanity by the relentless failure of his choices to accomplish even one good thing, ultimately chooses for his own reasons and from his own convictions to save the world. Simon, on the other hand, chooses to throw away his potential in order to follow Nia's path and the path of the Anti-Spiral, walking head-on into a pathetic waste of his life. All he has to say about the fact that he hasn't solved the problem of what to do with Spiral Power at all is, "I guess I'm nobody." He shirks his responsibility, bails out, and hopes someone else down the line is going to have more bravery than he does.

[AuraTwilight]

On the one hand, he's pretty much the worst father since Darth Vader. He abandons his child rather than accept that particular responsibility. Then there's the fact that he's partially responsible for Rei being a near-emotionless, practically suicidal doll at the start of the series. On top of that, he threw Touji and Asuka under the bus the moment they were no longer useful. And he definitely was enjoying himself when Bardiel died.

Woah, woah, woah, back up. How exactly is Rei's personality Gendo's fault? How is he the worst father since Darth Vader if he simply refused to take care of him? You're saying that's worse than actively abusing Shinji (which he may or may not have done if he hadn't abandoned the kid).

In what sense were Touji and Asuka "thrown under the bus?" He didn't fucking kill any of them or anything. He put them in the hospital and everything, and even if he did, if it was necessary to defeat the Angels, he's sort of in the right, there.

[CyberXIII]

@Auratwilight
We've had this discussion before, I believe. I've said it before, and I can't believe I have to say it again: SOLDIERS ARE NOT OBJECTS. This is not a chess game where you can throw away pieces as you see fit. This is war, yes. I understand that, nor am I naive enough to think that everyone was going to live through that clusterfuck.

However, there is a difference between sending soldiers into battle with the risk of losing them, and letting them die because it's fucking convenient. That's what Gendo did to Touji; he tossed him aside like so much trash once he was no longer useful. At best he puts up a token effort to get him out of the Eva, and then as good as kills him 5 minutes later. The same thing happens when Arael was raping Asuka's brains out. Shinji's desperate to help her, and begs his dad to let him help her before she dies. Gendo flat out says he doesn't care what happens to her.

As for the Darth Vader comment, I was exaggerating to prove a point. Gendo is pretty much a failure as a parent, and was admittedly smart enough to realize this and get rid of Shinji before he hurt the boy even more.

@Azathoth
First, and foremost, Shinji's depressions break him, but what I didn't think I had to say out loud was that he still stops Third Impact before it became permanent. It says a lot about him that even after 24 episodes and a movie's worth of mental and physical torture he was able to toss aside paradise in order to give humanity a chance to live again. I used that pity party thing as a comparison point.

What you said about Simon is complete and utter crap. The reason Simon spouts what Kamina, Nia and Rossiu say is for very good reasons. Simon looks up to and idolizes Kamina, so of course he's going to repeat what he says. Kamina was his mentor in all but name, so of course he's going to listen to what he says and believe him. Kamina was trying to teach him courage and how to actually have self-esteem. Nia was trying to help Simon out of his depression before he killed himself. He has personal convictions, it's just that he learned by example. That's kinda the point of a mentor character.

He wants to save Nia because he friggin' loves her-is that so hard to believe? He listens to Rossiu because Rossiu's one of the few other members of the Gurren-Dan that actually uses his brain. The only reason Simon was going to let Rossiu execute him was because he thought that would save Earth from the Anti-Spirals.

Lastly, he left Kamina City not to shirk responsibility, but because he knows damn well he can't run a city-state. Rossiu, for all his faults, thrives in a setting like this, and Simon realized that. Simon listens to the Anti-Spiral because, well, would YOU want to take the chance that the AS was right? That's the other reason he leaves, not because he accepts it at face value, but because he's not reckless or stupid enough to take that chance. AS still doesn't even get the moral victory because he was committing multiple genocide in order to protect the universe. AS was so wrapped up in guarding the universe that he forgot to care about the people in it.

And yes, this is parenthetical, and yes, arguing the benefits of TTGL on an NGE forum is an exercise in futility....but I couldn't let that lie.

[NemZ]

However, there is a difference between sending soldiers into battle with the risk of losing them, and letting them die because it's fucking convenient. That's what Gendo did to Touji; he tossed him aside like so much trash once he was no longer useful. At best he puts up a token effort to get him out of the Eva, and then as good as kills him 5 minutes later. The same thing happens when Arael was raping Asuka's brains out. Shinji's desperate to help her, and begs his dad to let him help her before she dies. Gendo flat out says he doesn't care what happens to her.

With regards to Toji, what other option does he have?

In the Asuka situation, he's not saying he doesn't care if she dies (at least as far as she's needed to keep 02 operational, as is clarified just a little later... I agree he couldn't care less about her on a personal basis), but rather that saving her isn't worth the risk of contaminating the now godlike 01... especially in light of other alternatives that are more conductive to his overall goal. Besides, she disobeyed orders to put herself in this position.

[CyberXIII]

@NemZ
In the case of Touji, it was a simple matter of bringing up an obvious point that I think you brought up earlier. Why didn't Gendo just say something along the lines of either "Shinji, you'll be responsible for the deaths of millions if you don't fight." or "Shinji, tear out the entry plug." Better yet, why didn't Gendo just have the three Evas bum-rush Eva-03 simultaneously? Far better odds than that dumbass "running the gauntlet" setup he had there.

In the case of Asuka vs. Arael, Gendo doesn't give two shits about her or Unit 02 at this point. This is right before Ritsuko was about to drop her from the Eva program due to her plummeting sync score. He knows this, and also knows she's next to useless to his scenario. She can die for all he cares.

[AuraTwilight]

As for the Darth Vader comment, I was exaggerating to prove a point. Gendo is pretty much a failure as a parent, and was admittedly smart enough to realize this and get rid of Shinji before he hurt the boy even more.

Then how come Gendo abandoning Shinji is treated as the most evil thing he's ever done to the kid?

We've had this discussion before, I believe. I've said it before, and I can't believe I have to say it again: SOLDIERS ARE NOT OBJECTS. This is not a chess game where you can throw away pieces as you see fit. This is war, yes. I understand that, nor am I naive enough to think that everyone was going to live through that clusterfuck.

So if saving a soldier's life is pretty much impossible or ridiculously risky, why bother? Soldiers may not be objects, but they are expendable if it is absolutely necessary. If Touji's life can't be saved without risking a greater amount of lives, then fuck him.

However, there is a difference between sending soldiers into battle with the risk of losing them, and letting them die because it's fucking convenient. That's what Gendo did to Touji; he tossed him aside like so much trash once he was no longer useful. At best he puts up a token effort to get him out of the Eva, and then as good as kills him 5 minutes later. The same thing happens when Arael was raping Asuka's brains out. Shinji's desperate to help her, and begs his dad to let him help her before she dies. Gendo flat out says he doesn't care what happens to her.

There's really nothing Gendo could've done. Neither Shinji nor Asuka in either of those situations was doing what he told them to, so he decided "Fuck it, Dummy Plug time."

[NemZ]

In the case of Touji, it was a simple matter of bringing up an obvious point that I think you brought up earlier. Why didn't Gendo just say something along the lines of either "Shinji, you'll be responsible for the deaths of millions if you don't fight." or "Shinji, tear out the entry plug." Better yet, why didn't Gendo just have the three Evas bum-rush Eva-03 simultaneously? Far better odds than that dumbass "running the gauntlet" setup he had there.

A better strategy earlier? Yeah that would make sense, but it's kind of moot by the point of the decision you find so troubling. I would guess he didn't try to reason with Shinji further because he didn't seem to be in a rational frame of mind... and because Gendo lacks the patience and people skills to do so.

I have no disagreement with you regarding his giving a fraction of a crap about Asuka (and why should he?), though there's still that quote "We can't afford to lose unit 02 at this time."

[greatmightypoo]

I don't get Shinji relationship with his father. He hates him, yet he wants redemption from his his father. It comes off to me as unrealistic and just weak.

[sephirotic]

I don't get Shinji relationship with his father. He hates him, yet he wants redemption from his his father. It comes off to me as unrealistic and just weak.

That may not make sense to you, but believe us, that is how many human relationships works, they are neurotic, self-destructive and irrational...

Their relationship is far more realistic than many others fiction stories u'll find...
---------------------------------

About what happen to Shinji after the 2004 incident, there are two interesting pieces of information that you guys forgot to add in the mixture to try to speculate if Shinji lived with his father for a while before Running away:

In Episode 20, when Shinji is fused with Unit 01, in his owns flashbacks he remembered two things:

------
Shinji: My father doesn't need me, he deserted me.
Rei: And i'm your substitute?
Shinji: That gotta be it, my father deserted me because Ayanami was there"
Rei Personification: You were the one who ran away from yourself.
--------

(...)

---
"Yes i knew Eva, that is why i Run Away from my father AND MY MOTHER
---

Flashbacks in these passages suggest this feelings and runaway ocurred not much latter than the contact experiment...

We also know that Rei appeared in 2010 when Gendou stated that he was also taking care of a "friend's child"....

========================
What bothers me, is that if those mindfucks sequences where Shinji says that Ayanami was a substitute for him are realization from after he met her in 2015 or if he actually met her back before he ran away in 2012...

Also, other question that is rosen, is that Shinji says he Run away from his father AND MOTHER because he knew eva, folloew by the famous flashback in the train station of a child Shinji apparently 4~7 years old, a confusion rises: Did Shinji Run away by himself shortly after his mother died, a little latter or only in 2012 like he stated in episode 15...