A question concerning inherent wave patterns

[KnightmareX13]

In episode 05 of the TV series, Ritsuko says something about that the "angel's inherent wave pattens is 99.89% similar to that of humans" So if the angel that was examined is Adam based, and humans are Lilith based would that imply that Lilith "inherent wave pattern" would be 99.99% or higher? Or would humans evolution from Lilith's LCL cause the wave pattern to change so that it would only be like a .1-.5% increase?

[Sachi]

The main point of what Ritsuko was saying here is that Angels are nearly identical as us, which is again pressed upon when Misato explains to Shinji in EoE that Angels are humans that rejected their human form.

[AyrYntake]

Seconded. The idea is that Angels, while Adamic beings themselves, bear a pattern that is nearly entirely similar to that of humans--Lilith-born offspring. The difference is that they, being offspring of Adam and hence possessing S2 Engines (the "Fruit of Life"), are free to modify their ATFs and resultant forms to their own will.
Lilith's inherent wave pattern is perhaps a different matter entirely; after all, Lililth differs from all the rest of the Angels as being the only non-Adamic Seed. It's not clear exactly whether she, like them, is a PWM being at all and as such the first question to be answered is whether she even has a wave pattern to begin with.

[AuraTwilight]

Basically, "HOLY SHIT ANGELS AND HUMANS ARE THE SAME DAMN SPECIES."

[KnightmareX13]

Basically, "HOLY SHIT ANGELS AND HUMANS ARE THE SAME DAMN SPECIES."

that I already knew

Lilith's inherent wave pattern is perhaps a different matter entirely; after all, Lililth differs from all the rest of the Angels as being the only non-Adamic Seed. It's not clear exactly whether she, like them, is a PWM being at all and as such the first question to be answered is whether she even has a wave pattern to begin with.

this was more helpful, thanks

[Eva Yojimbo]

It's not clear exactly whether she, like them, is a PWM being at all

It's almost certain she is. The fact that her body seems to grow when the Lance is taken out, and then those imperfections on her legs go away when Rei returns all suggest the properties of PWM.

[AyrYntake]

That's where the logic begins to trip up. If Lilith were a PWM being, why then are we (all Earth-based life), her offspring, not all PWM beings like she is?
I can understand how it's hinted at, but not why Lilith should be different from all her descendants.

[Eva Yojimbo]

It's been suggested before (quite recently in another thread) that the FAR probably wanted to keep the the two Fruits away from each other, so they split them up into two distinct beings, and Lilith's offspring got the FoK. But the reason she has to be made of PWM likely comes from the fact that PWM is extremely tough material that can, apparently, withstand a great deal of energy output (see 2I and 3I) which is often necessary to give rise to Lilim/Angels in a new environment. On the other hand, LCL seems like an alternative method which allows the offspring to adapt to an environment, but the Seed would still have to be strong enough to sustain the trip and the whole, errr, "bleeding" process. I guess it comes down to the idea that PWM is just a better material to make god-like progenitor beings out of.

[NemZ]

For all we know the lifeforms Adam was intended to create may have been LCL based too, meaning both angels and evas are unplanned abominations. It makes sense to me that the seeds be the only true PWM beings.

[Azathoth]

For all we know the lifeforms Adam was intended to create may have been LCL based too, meaning both angels and evas are unplanned abominations. It makes sense to me that the seeds be the only true PWM beings.

Indeed. Recall that Adam did not reproduce as intended - it's not clear if the immediately-pre-2I spawning binge was even intentional or just some kind of weird defense mechanism.

[AyrYntake]

Sorry, I fail to follow. Why are Angels suddenly "abominations", rather than natural Adamic offspring? And am I to assume, then, that the phrase "inherent wave pattern" in reference to PWM-based life translates directly to "genetic pattern" in LCL-based life, at least in this universe?
I mean, the phrase "The Angels' inherent wave pattern is 99.89% similar to that of humans" means nothing until we figure out what humans' "inherent wave pattern" even is.

[Azathoth]

Sorry, I fail to follow. Why are Angels suddenly "abominations", rather than natural Adamic offspring?

There's nothing natural about the way the Angels were born. Adam never got a chance to create offspring as the FAR intended her to. What she got was KO'd for several eons and then abruptly woken up by meddling crazies who wanted to stick potentially lethal foreign material into her. She produced a bunch of children in very short order and then fucking exploded. Not really a birth without complications.

[Sachi]

Like I've stated before, 'human' is a loosely thrown about term within Eva and it's hard to find a clear definition of what the NGE universe defines as human. While identifying mankind as being human, they claim the Angels are human, Adam is the first human, Evas are human, and GNR is human. The point they're likely trying to make is that the FAR are human, and that human's hold the power of god, but then we would have to more clearly identify what is solely what we know of as human. Kaworu graciously provides us with the term 'Lilin'. Mankind is composed of Lilin, which is identifiably different than each other definition of the word 'human' used in Eva.

[NemZ]

Defined as loosely as they sometimes are with regards to such topics, "angel" and "human" are utterly meaningless terms. There's nothing to be gained by using these wider definitions, so why bother? All it does is create unnecessary confusion in an already complex situation.

With regards to 'abominations', I'm suggesting that it's entirely possible the angels as we see them in the show were nothing at all like the FAR intended to plant on any worlds. My own speculation (read: fanwank) on the matter is that some souls were released without suitable bodies to inhabit, and thus incubated within chunks of Adam's remains. Likewise, all Evas but 01 were probably grown from similar Adam samples. Thus both Evas and Angels are things which ought not be, the animated zombie flesh of a murdered alien godling... an abomination-y state of being if ever there was one.

[Baz]

My own speculation (read: fanwank) on the matter is that some souls were released without suitable bodies to inhabit, and thus incubated within chunks of Adam's remains. Likewise, all Evas but 01 were probably grown from similar Adam samples. Thus both Evas and Angels are things which ought not be, the animated zombie flesh of a murdered alien godling... an abomination-y state of being if ever there was one.

That fanwank could also suggest that Kaworu is what adamic life was meant to look like. So Kaworu is how people turn out if they hold the fruit of life, and Shinji is how people turn out if they hold the fruit of knowledge. The differences would be mainly psychological, and the "S2=fruit of life" hypothesis would have to be revisited.

Unless NGE2 has something to say about how 2I resulted in the angels that we see in NGE, the question is open to speculation. The only real problem I see with the "zombie bits" hypothesis is that Seele would have a hard time predicting how many zombie pieces there were, unless they had actually found most of them. Oh, and another problem: how did the angels automatically grow S2 engines, while NERV was unable to grow an S2 in an Eva? Seele acting behind the scenes, perhaps? Maybe Seele was also responsible for the failed American S2 test.

[AuraTwilight]

Wasn't it stated somewhere that along with Adam were a bunch of Angel Eggs, and what Adam released were merely their souls.

Going with this theory, though, it does beg the question of what Adam's children were supposed to be like, and how they'd differ from Lilin.

[NemZ]

That fanwank could also suggest that Kaworu is what adamic life was meant to look like.

That's not really what I meant, as I see no reason being made of the same stuff would also mean they were designed to the same specifications, and that's not even considering the possibility that evolution was purely random from the LCL seed material on up.

The only real problem I see with the "zombie bits" hypothesis is that Seele would have a hard time predicting how many zombie pieces there were, unless they had actually found most of them.

Secret Dead Sea Scrolls, man. They know everything... even though they probably shouldn't. Don't think about it too hard.

Oh, and another problem: how did the angels automatically grow S2 engines, while NERV was unable to grow an S2 in an Eva?

Different fruit. Whatever the hell the Fruit of knowledge gives us ( ) they would lack.

[Azathoth]

That fanwank could also suggest that Kaworu is what adamic life was meant to look like. So Kaworu is how people turn out if they hold the fruit of life, and Shinji is how people turn out if they hold the fruit of knowledge. The differences would be mainly psychological, and the "S2=fruit of life" hypothesis would have to be revisited.

Kaworu is a corrupted sample, the result of the donor's DNA fusing with Adam's. If anything, he's even less natural than the rest of the Angels. And recall that Adam was attempting to substantially alter the ecosystem of Antarctica when 3I took place. Adamic life was not intended to live in a biosphere anything like the Lilithic one.

[AyrYntake]

This thread is growing increasingly tangential, but with interesting results. I say we shplit?

[sephirotic]

Backing to topic here is my chance to attack the PWM theory...

As mentioned before here in this topic, the whole point of the explanation of Ritsuko in episode 05 is to affirm that angels and humans are very similiar, indead, pratically the same species, i can´t avoind seeing a comparison with the famouse comparisson of humans and apes sharing over 98% of the same DNA.


I really want a more literal and precise translation to the excerpt of Ritsuko explanation when she says "altough from different matter",

The whole SHAPE-SHIFTING matter theory, The PWM, that affirm that angels aren´t made of LCL, only humans are, are based on this single vague phrase...

This prhase is too vague and can be interpreted and fanwanked in inifite ways, personally i think if it really were that relevant, the PWM would have been more explained through the series with further evidence sustaining it.

I personally believe that both angels, humans, lillith and adam are made of LCL, after all, we are all carbon-based beings. There are several evidences to sustain that:

we see a "orange liquid" dripping from angels cores, and from the shadow angel, and in episode 20, Shinji's soul convert the LCL, supposely unable to free shapeshifting, in a nonorganic Plugsuit.

This sugest that the SHAPESHIFTING abillity of angels, aren´t related to the matter of wich they are made, but by something else: They AT-FIELD.

But we know that humans can´t alter the world around then, neither expand their At-fields without losing they form, so how come Shinji could?

This is were my theory about the cores arrive: The cores are the source of the power of the angels, they are responssible for holding and amplifing the Souls' image and power: the At field.

Shinji's soul were set free from it's body and inhabited unit's 01 core, having now the ability to expand itself and shapeshift matter: the LCL inside the plug, not the Flesh (supposedely PWM) of unit 01.

Thus, with this theory i create a new rule for the at-field, lcl, system:

-Angels and humans are made of basically the same thing (as affirmed by ritsuko)
- HUmans and angels have at fields and souls
- This make sense, since we are both descendates from SoL, that were bioengeniered by the same race (the FAR)
-The main difference betwen humans and angles are the inability of Humans to expand they At fields, thus not having any powers...
-However, a cloned human can have a body behaving like an angel and still shape like a human: Rei
-Strangely enough even tough Rei is made based on a different SOL, she is identical in power and characteristic than her antagonist made from adam, this sugest that Adam and Lillith are even more similar than different, unlike some ppl try to theorize
-Thus, if we assume that all beings with power have cores, with are the responsible of their power, we could fit lot of this pieces together and even more,

the alternatives are:

- The PWM theory <- Wich is entirely based on INTERPRETATION a single vague phrase of Ritsuko in a non climax moment,

Or:

- A theory where the soul of Lillith and Adam are different from humans and the source of they power <- This kinda of work but has even fewer elements in the series to be sustained.

Or:

?