A very fair review of Evangelion I found

[Mr. Tines]

NGE doesn't easily fall into any of the philosophical "isms", as can be seen by the debates on here about whether NGE is existential and, if so, what branch or is it solipsism or Buddhism or atheistic/deistic, etc. In a way, it's almost like a philosophical stream-of-conscious with Anno endlessly hopping trains of thought from one key idea to another that's strongly related.

The urge to fit things into neat and tidy boxes is the problem here. On the thematic level it is Anno's stream of conscious personal statement, not some dry analytical box-checking exercise against any particular other school of thought. And, in being a personal exorcism, that is what really gives NGE its power.

[KLVTZ]

Is it just me, but did anyone notice that she really bitched about how NGE was repetitive in its ideas, how Shinji would go on a subject again and again, in almost every episode. I love those moments, i felt he was getting closer each time to his own understanding, not repeating them would seem to me a waste of time. And so what if Anno used the train scene 4 times, that was Shinji's place(cant think of the psychological word because of tiredness). Those train scenes were deep and were related to other subjects of thoughts that Shinji had. It was progressive!
So what if we don't get the typical hero, or the viewpoint of exact hope. That's what we need, movies/tv/everything media, repeats in its ideas, isnt NGE a nice new idea, showing that we don't need the typical hero, that people can be satisfied with something different. I'm tired of the typical main character, who seems to solve his problems, and possibly others, and knows his will and blah blah blah...i want different, i want a character that we can think of his actions, i want a psychological disrupt character and his almost hopeless view, i want a person debating on whether to live, i want Shinji Ikari, not an Ash ketchum

By far she does deserve credit as a negative reviewer she is by far the one to back up her ideas, but their flawed, and seemingly emotionally driven by opinions.
It seems she wanted more Gundam Battle like scenes, than psychological debates, in NGE. It seems she rather keep the first half of the series and continue it in the same direction , rather than the up building twist that we love to debate about.

Did it seem obvious she wanted what was already exposed and written in amine in general, i don't know how exactly to say it, but it seems she wanted more action, action that other animes have and seemed relatively related. But come on! NGE is different, and so what if it didn't go into the direction you would've like it to go into. It's NGE, and its going to be different, i don't think it was right for her to nag on how the direction went, especially if she is indirectly comparing it to other anime's in present time, or when NGE was originally out.

Good Review, well thought of, but honestly it was emotionally driven by what she would've like to see, and not NGE and only NGE. That's my opinion.
But i really do encourage her to continue her reviews, and i will definitely check out her other reviews

[Zenithfleet]

A reply! From Yojimbo! In which he agrees with some stuff I said! *newbie swoon*
PS, Jimbo, this might sound a bit weird, but thanks for taking the time to reply. I appreciate it. I'm kinda used to being ignored on forums since I'm usually in the wrong time zone and so can't get into a proper conversation. Which is one reason why I suffer from wall-o-text syndrome. Maybe I should start putting everything in 9-point...

I mean, for posters like myself, NGE transcends star ratings. 4/4 hardly captures the profound effect it's had on some people and the world of anime (in general), so it would kinda be like giving Citizen Kane 3/4.

Know what you mean here. It's not a rateable series for me either. Just like The Neverending Story. It's gone beyond rankings, because of its personal importance, and to a lesser extent the impact it had on anime. Though I didn't know enough about pre-NGE anime to notice the latter when I saw the show for the first time. I assumed all 'proper' anime (by which I meant anything that didn't get shown at 8am weekdays) must be of similar quality, so I rushed off to try all sorts, only to be disappointed by most of it. Kinda like the way some people are blown away by the Lord of the Rings books, then try to repeat the experience with the commercial fantasy genre and find it all a bit of a letdown.

Of course, the converse of this is 'Seinfeld Is Unfunny' (as TV Tropes puts it). If you come to NGE years afterward, when moody emo teen characters are all the rage, it doesn't necessarily seem like a big deal. It happens with plenty of epochal, revolutionary works. I haven't seen Citizen Kane (shocking I know ) and I have a dark suspicion that if I were to watch it tomorrow, even knowing its significance and overall enjoying it, I quite possibly would give it 3/4 because its innovations in cinematography, narrative, makeup etc would be diluted for me by decades of reuse.

The other thing about NGE (and this is directed at JO's review, not you Jimbo) is that it's not trying to be all things to all people in the same way that - to use the standard example - Bebop is. It seems to have been aimed at a particular group (giant robot otakus) and had very particular things to say to them. It's ironic that it was probably responsible for turning a large number of innocent Australian teenagers at the turn of the millennium into frothing anime fans, but I don't think we can hold Anno responsible for NGE's effects on unsuspecting foreigners.

I think it's important to stress that NGE EARNS its "telling". It's spent so much time developing these characters and making us care about their problems that when they start examining all of these themes it should very much matter to us on a gut level.

Absolutely. One thing I had intended to add in my last post, but cut out for lack of space, was that in NGE, the "character telling" is in some sense the payoff. If it had done that kind of relentless baring of the soul in, say, Episodes 2 and 3 and 5 and 7, it would justifiably count as lazy and probably ineffectual writing. You'd say to yourself, "stop navel-gazing and get on with the story!" But by coming at the climax of the series, it's the equivalent of the big reveal, the revelation that answers all the questions, the long-awaited infodump that makes you reassess everything that's gone before. The fact that the TV ending of NGE does this instead of resolving the arcane real-world conspiracies we all thought it was building up to was both infuriating and fascinating to me on first viewing (regardless of whether it was the original intent to end that way, given all the budget/schedule problems).

Hmm... now that I think of it, this approach is only used for certain characters. Ritsuko, Hyuuga, Maya and especially Fuyutsuki get textbook "show, don't tell" character reveals. Gendo, meanwhile gets a short but utterly devastating "tell" in the movie. That's actually one of the most upsetting and terrifying scenes in EoE for me. You can keep your cannibalistic giggly harpies and Room 303. None of that holds a candle to the idea that Gendo is what Shinji - and by extension the viewer who identifies with Shinji - could become.

[The increasing density of the narrative] is a subject that even Hiroki Azuma mentioned in his article and it's one that's really had a big effect on how I approached NGE's/Anno's handling of the drama

Hmm, who's Hiroki Azuma? I just did a quick Google - is this article called 'Anime or Something Like It?"? http://www.ntticc.or.jp/pub/ic_mag/ic018/intercity/higashi_E.html

I also agree with her about why Shinji is such an unlikable character... I, personally, didn't care about him. He was uninvolved and was only there as a medium to convey emotions. He was just a metaphor for loneliness, basically... By episode 10 we know how lonely and sad and pathetic Shinji is, and everywhere they go after that just makes us hate him.

Interesting that you had that reaction, BeoX2. (And God knows a lot of people would wholeheartedly agree ) I think it was Mr Tines who pointed out that he's a fairly realistic depiction of somebody with avoidant personality disorder. A lot of people recognised some aspect of themselves in Shinji - but if you didn't, then yes, it's hard to find him likeable.

Myself, I didn't identify with Shinji when I first watched the series. But I didn't hate him either. It might have something to do with the fact that I started watching in the Action Arc. I don't really agree that he's a static character; he starts to grow steadily more confident, even sociable - to the point when he gets all gung-ho and overconfident facing Leliel, and gets the deluxe helltrain treatment as a consequence. Even so, Touji comments in Episode 17 that Shinji has changed and come out of his shell.

Still, I think this is about the limit of what Shinji can achieve without confronting his demons. He manages to adjust to Tokyo-3 life and turn Eva piloting into a moderately safe, comfortable routine - the Action Arc episodes reflect this in their 'monster of the week' predictability - and he has Asuka as a foil to prod and goad him when he starts to retreat too much. But he's only papered over the cracks. When things turn nasty in 18 onward, his fragile confidence can't possibly survive it, and the long dark spiral into depression begins.

Someone who has lived their ENTIRE life lonely and sad and pathetic can't just change in 30 seconds, especially if they were only getting worse for the past few months.

It does seem a bit sudden, but I think that's because it's the moment when things achieve critical mass in Shinji's mind. He's spent the latter half of the series peeking at and then running away from his problems, but the pressure has just kept building and finally he has to face the truth (or, possibly, explode). It's his catharsis at the end of long therapy. (Which may make Mr Big Zebra Ball of Eldritch Psychoanalysis the hero of the whole show, come to think of it...)

I might add from personal experience that a sudden epiphany is definitely possible. But, like Shinji, it doesn't happen out of nowhere. It's like an earthquake: everything is peaceful on the surface, but underneath, the stress is building for years... til all at once - WHAM.

Finally, KLVTZ: To be fair, JO does expressly state at the beginning that she's well aware her criticisms are subjective. If NGE is good at anything, it's getting an emotional reaction out of people. I don't know if there are many who would watch it and just go 'meh'.

Hmm... would this thread be better off in Eva Discussion now that we've gotten all in-depthified?

PS, JesuOkatu, I know you like dubs, but if you do review Escaflowne TV, for the love of God watch the sub first! Dilandau's seiyuu must not be missed. Under any circumstances.

[BeoX2]

The strange thing is, I liked to hate Shinji. It's one of the reasons I liked Eva so much. I got to see a character that I didn't really like get destroyed. I know that sounds really, like, evil, but if I had really like Shinji I probably would have cried.

There's the thing about Evangelion. It's emotions are like a nuclear bomb (especially in EoE). It throws all sorts of emotions at you all at once, and instead of making you cry or pulling a few heartstrings, it just shatters everything you have and leaves you empty and physically tired. It takes no prisoners and leaves none behind. I like that. It's unafraid and unforgiving and bursting at the seams with raw emotional power. However, I never cried at Eva. Shinji is too unrealistic (anyone who relates to him, I really am sorry) and too pathetic. Rei is emotionless and therefore very difficult to connect with. Even Asuka, my favorite character, is still very hard to connect with. I didn't need to connect to these characters, though, and this is what makes Eva so unbelievable. I cared about them while not caring about them. I knew what they were going through while not being able to understand what they were going through. No other work in any genre or in any medium has ever done that before or since, and probably never will.

Now, back to my "emotional bomb" analogy. Eva leaves you drained. It has no redeeming moments. Everything is bad all the time, in some way. It leaves you dead in the gutter of some back street in New York. It crushes you under the sheer weight of terror and pain and loneliness.

My favorite show, Cowboy Bebop, is a sniper of emotion. It playfully runs around, being fun and happy and awesome, and then, suddenly, BOOM! You're crying. "Speak Like a Child" or "Honky Tonk Woman" or "The Real Folk Blues" or "Jupiter Jazz;" these episodes are unbelievably emotional. They pluck at the heartstrings like a master harpist, knowing exactly when to use each one and exactly what order to use them in. It hits you in places you didn't even realize you had. In "Speak Like A Child," when Faye is watching the tape of herself talking to her future self, and her not being able to remember any of it. In the epic finale, when Spike leaves to fight Vicious, and Faye is left actaully crying and Jet is just left solemnly cleaning the windows, with the withering tune playing in the background. This does not destroy you. It does not leave you physically exhausted or drained. It does not change the way you think or feel. It does not change your life. It is, however, one of the greatest shows of all time, and in my book, better than Evangelion.

Evangelion is amazing, a masterpiece. It is an incredible show with an incredible psychology aspect and an astonishing effect on history. It's characters are explored psychologically and emotionally to levels where they seem like real people. You care about them while not caring about them. You understand while being ignorant. Any other show, any lesser show, couldn't have pulled off something like EoTV without being laughed off the air. It changed the playing field of anime for years to come. It changed people's lives. But it is almost primitive in its display of emotion. It bashes it in, where it works perfectly, but it's still just bashed in there. It nukes everything, leaving none behind. It doesn't care who it kills and how it kills them, or what it does to someone and how it's done. It's intense and overbearing.

Overall, it's impossible to put into words. Evangelion transcends reason and logic and becomes pure and utter emotional connection. You like it based on that, and hate it based on that. Evangelion is emotion.

In reply to Zenith; Shinji really is a static character, but not because of the writing. He is static because as soon as he has his "epiphany" in any ending, the show ends. He can't don anything with his new found knowledge. He needs to have this epiphany early on and then do things with it and prove that he REALLY understands what he's learned. The problem with this is that doing that would take years, which is just unrealistic to put in an anime.

About the whole earthquake analogy, I understand what you're getting at and I agree, but that isn't really what is happening with Shinji. He's only hating himself more and more and becoming worse and worse as the series goes on, especially at the end. Just for killing Kawrou he would need years of therapy. It's not like "peaceful on the surface, crazy inside," it's like "total destruction on the outside, hell itself on the inside." I know people can have these epiphanies, but in Ep 26, Shinji has literally just said "I hate myself. I'm cowardly and weak!" and then went on to say "But maybe I can love myself!" No. No no no no no no. It doesn't work like that.

[carla]

I know people can have these epiphanies, but in Ep 26, Shinji has literally just said "I hate myself. I'm cowardly and weak!" and then went on to say "But maybe I can love myself!" No. No no no no no no. It doesn't work like that.

to be fair, i think that was precisely the idea... instrumentality-- being completely open to your own thoughts and to everyone else's thoughts-- is supposed to be like years of therapy condensed into one single moment.

of course, it's understandable that this may sound like an ass-pull to some of the audience. personally i took the lesson out of it away from the context: find a way to deal somehow. mainly because i wouldn't like to go through something as life-altering as instrumentality in order to solve my personal issues. i don't think it was meant to be "realistic" so much as the ultimate worst-case scenario: "this is the point you have to get to, but it doesn't need to go to these lengths. you can find your own way to deal with your problems and try to be happy." but i guess i can see why some people think of it as the "easy way out" instead of logical character development. it's all perception.

[The Abhorrent]

It takes YEARS, and he was a fully grown man who knows everything about himself that he can. The "epiphany" Shinji has is just not possible.

I guess I'll elaborate my viewpoint on that.
This is all subjective reasoning, so take it with a grain of salt.

Yes, it can certainly seem sudden at the end, but it can be argued that he didn't magically solve all his problems. Rather, it's just the first step in the right direction.

Here's a bit of wisdom I was told by one of my teachers in high school:
"The more decisions you can make, the more alive you are. The fewer decision you can make, the closer you are to death."

This does need some explaining, but just it's simple logic.
When you're dead, you can't make any decisions. You're dead.
Now look at suicide. You only have two choices, life or death.

Shinji is shown to be suicidal throughout EoE. There is speculation that he tried to drown himself at the very beginning of the movie. He makes no attempt to save himself from the JSSDF, not even pleading for mercy when a gun at his head. Even after that, Misato has to forcibly drag him to Unit 01. And to top it all off, he chooses death (for himself and everyone on Earth) and gives the final word to start the final phases of Third Impact. Luckily for him, he is given the chance to see what it's like being (mostly) dead.... and the opportunity to go back on that decision. Ultimately, Shinji chooses life in the end.

In EoTV, that decision is made in the congratulations scene. I suppose it is a bit of a 180, but Shinji was right at the crossroads. Choosing to live or die was likely the biggest decision of his life. The whole of EoTV is him thinking this through, and it's not a pretty process.

Again, all of his thoughts are shown before coming to the final conclusion. Every single little tidbit, all the negativity and self-loathing he sees. It's unusual to explore every single piece of data before making any decisions, but it's a way to look for some sort of underlying pattern. This could be the way Shinji thinks, and maybe Anno himself as well. I've always suspected the whole of the analysis is a mirror of his own relevation. He does say every character is an avatar of himself, perhaps Shinji first and foremost. So is this relevation unrealistic if it's grounded in a real life experience (even if accelerated)? Heck if I know.


Going back to the final relevation, his final bit of self-hatred does sound almost hollow and unsure compared to those before it. He's lying to himself. He starts considering the possibility of doing otherwise, it's the first sliver of hope he's seen in ages... and just runs with it to the epiphany. It's a psychological breakthrough.

Shinji has been digging down that hole of self-loathing for quite some time, and quite literally hit rock-bottom. As low as you can go, far lower than most forms of entertainment dare go. He isn't out of the gutter yet, but he's taking the first steps on the way out. It is here than NGE ends.

For evidence that he isn't out of the hole, there's the final scene of EoE. There are many interpretations of that scene, but going with the interpretation above.... deciding to live only to find out you didn't reverse the apocalypse but only stopped it half way? That must've been a slap in the face for Shinji. Running with that, could he be strangling Asuka (who he might not realize is alive at the time) as a form of protest at this farce before him? Does he just breakdown emotionally and start crying upon realizing she is alive, mirroring his reaction to finding Rei alive in the plug at the end of episode 6? Again, heck if I know.


And that's enough rambling from me for now (barring final comments), but that's just another possible interpretation of the events of NGE. The relevation in EoTV just prior to the congratulations is a bit sudden, yes. But it's not necessarily Shinji correcting all his mental issues, but simply deciding he can correct them. Unlike many other series (and stories in general), this is the end of NGE. The most we see is the final scene of EoE, which merely shows that he's not completely over his issues.

JesuOtaku said it herself. If psychology is the pit of the human experience, philosophy is the ladder back up. NGE functions as a subversion (and possibly yet another deconstruction) of the typical "Coming of Age Story" by ending halfway. Rather than briefly delving into the pit of despair (psychology), it shows the whole of the experience. They keep going until they really hit rock bottom. The series take the first step back out (philosophy), but abruptly ends right there.

Perhaps that's what makes NGE such a powerful work, there deliberately is no resolution to the plot. If Anno decided to give it a proper conclusion, it wouldn't even be half as memorable or powerful as it is now.

[BeoX2]

It can be said that Instrumentality allowed him to see the experiences of others and learn more quickly, but that all just adds to the confusing canon of the story.

[NemZ]

I know people can have these epiphanies, but in Ep 26, Shinji has literally just said "I hate myself. I'm cowardly and weak!" and then went on to say "But maybe I can love myself!" No. No no no no no no. It doesn't work like that.

...but that isn't what happened. Did you fail to notice his defensive reactions being methodically picked apart during the last two episodes, culminating in a vision/dream/alternate reality that offered proof that his happiness was actually possible? To call that an epiphany is to completely ignore the intensive psychological intervention the rest of the cast just performed on his behalf.

[shinji_ryoji_89]

I agreed with her review on some points. There is definitely a repetitive nature to the episodes, but strangely enough, this bothered me during the first half of the show.

I also agree that Rei is a really underdeveloped character, after finishing the series, I couldn't understand the thing fans had for her. Sudden repeat viewings of the episodes and fan discussion, though, have revealed aspects of her that give her more personality and depth than I initially remembered from my first viewing.

I do think the series botched the Kaworu plot a little bit. That episode is amazing, for sure, but Kaworu is such an interesting character that I wish he had been introduced earlier.

I don't mind the long-takes at all. I find them fascinating in a lot of ways and very effective for the most part. They do push them, though.

As for the last two episodes, the reason why I love them so much is because they really do feel like you are going into Shinji's head. It does feel very similar to when you are doing soul-searching when your life is a complete mess. That said, and as much as the very last scene nearly brings me to tears every time, it's not an entirely satisfactory ending. Sure, "End of Evangelion" had me going "What?!" right after "Kimochi Warui", but its a more satisfactory ending because we actually see what's going on outside the character's heads.

Many of the problems that she and I have with the series are being corrected (at least, so far) in the Rebuild films, but that's another story.

Flawed as it is, though, it's really hard for me to feel that those flaws truly downgrade the series in any way. It's a very very good story that I love. I can tell you a rather large amount of series that are more "perfect" than Evangelion, but I don't love any of them the same way. It's something that truly spoke to me at a time that I really needed it.

[BeoX2]

...but that isn't what happened. Did you fail to notice his defensive reactions being methodically picked apart during the last two episodes, culminating in a vision/dream/alternate reality that offered proof that his happiness was actually possible? To call that an epiphany is to completely ignore the intensive psychological intervention the rest of the cast just performed on his behalf.

He was really only picked apart in Ep. 25, along with the other characters. 26 was much more philosophy oriented. And all the things he was shown would really only depress him more, as they didn't say anything good about him or the things he did, or even point out the good things that he does do.

[NemZ]

He was really only picked apart in Ep. 25, along with the other characters. 26 was much more philosophy oriented. And all the things he was shown would really only depress him more, as they didn't say anything good about him or the things he did, or even point out the good things that he does do.

I think you need to rewatch ep26. The episode analyzes his problems, tells him those are general human issues so he isn't alone, shows him that he needs to open up to others to find meaning in his life, illustrates that what he perceives as his faults can be transformed with a change in attitude, then shows him a possible way of living where he is normal and at peace. Only after all of that does he make a turn for the better.

[BeoX2]

I think you need to rewatch ep26. The episode analyzes his problems, tells him those are general human issues so he isn't alone, shows him that he needs to open up to others to find meaning in his life, illustrates that what he perceives as his faults can be transformed with a change in attitude, then shows him a possible way of living where he is normal and at peace. Only after all of that does he make a turn for the better.

I just watched it. It tells him that all he has to do is perceive that he isn't alone, and acknowledge the fact that he isn't, but just saying that doesn't heal someone. It takes time. A lot of time.

[NemZ]

Then I suppose you missed the part where it was drilled into his head through repetition that his problems are all in his head?

How much time has passed since instrumentality began, and by what objective measurement do you judge it? Why do you assume traditional therapy is at all comparable to a process that happens directly within the patient's mind?

Nobody said he's 'healed', btw... all I'm saying is that he's taken a step back from the abyss and seen a bit of light in the distance.

[facespace]

During the videos, she states that Anno hates his fanbase, is that statement legitimate? Or is that an exaggeration based on many rewrites and changes he has made to the series?

[BeoX2]

During the videos, she states that Anno hates his fanbase, is that statement legitimate? Or is that an exaggeration based on many rewrites and changes he has made to the series?

It's a little bit of both. He really won't leave it be.

[Ornette]

During the videos, she states that Anno hates his fanbase, is that statement legitimate? Or is that an exaggeration based on many rewrites and changes he has made to the series?

There's definitely quotes from him that could lead someone to think that. And at the same time, other things that would make one think otherwise. According to someone (can't remember, was it Yamaga?) involved with Gainax, Anno supposedly shaved his head after Eva to apologize to the fans for the TV series ending. Anno didn't have much to do with Eva since then until Rebuild (circa 2006 when he marathoned the TV series and thought that the show was "pretty cool").

(oh, it was Toshio Okada)

[Sailor Star Dust]

During the videos, she states that Anno hates his fanbase, is that statement legitimate? Or is that an exaggeration based on many rewrites and changes he has made to the series?

Until somebody gives an actual source for such a statement, it's an exaggeration.

See this: http://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_Analysis:List_of_Common_Misconceptions#.22Anno.27s_Revenge.22

EDIT: Ninja'ed by Ornette. Thanks, I forgot about the head-shaving!

[facespace]

That would be a sad statement if he did.

[Eva Yojimbo]

Wheee! So many things to reply to. The old part of Jimbo that loves WoT bombs is happy, the new Jimbo that has limited time is a bit perturbed, but will press on regardless.

@Beox2  SPOILER: Show

The only objective truth about that is that we're all different and subjective, however conflicting that sounds.

I once said the only way to be truly objective is to be objective about our own subjectivity. IOW, we have to try and step outside ourselves to investigate why we are the way we are, and the impact that external, objective elements have had in shaping us. But there is certainly plenty of art who addresses objective reality, especially socially conscious works. In film it may be the likes of Rossellini or any of the neorealists who try to observe the way the world is. But even then such "objective" films are marked by distinctive subjective qualities and perceptions, like Rossellini painting Italians mostly as heroes and Nazis as perverse (often homosexual), one-dimensional villains. You also have plenty of art that attempts to focus on individuals' subjectivity as (at least, somewhat) apart of reality. Hamlet and NGE are two works that would fall into that category.

I think that if you merely look at what NGE is saying about the massive importance of our subjective perceptions of reality it isn't a stretch to assume that they're ignoring objective reality and perhaps lapsing into nihilism or solipsism, but I don't think NGE ever goes that far. If anything, NGE is saying that objective reality has had this effect on you (Shinji/Asuka/etc.) and, in turn, they've tried to impose their will on objective reality to change it, but have only ran into brick walls. This is because they haven't realized that we don't directly perceive reality, but a reality filtered through our subjectivity. So trying to directly change reality in some instances can be like trying to punch someone through a brick wall. The series says you have to change yourself first in order to change reality, and that you've already made an important step by changing the process by which you perceive reality.

I think an argument could be made that NGE comes close to saying that if you change your truth/perception of reality you change physical/objective reality, but I'm not sure that's the case. If anything, NGE has been a series built around the negation of the efficacy of will to change anything in reality, and EoE very clearly brings us crashing back to reality by saying that no psychological revelation made in the perfect bliss of Instrumentality will guarantee that actual reality will simply change to conform to your new world view.

Truth is very subjective, yes.

This comes down to semantics. I think a general mistake is to equate truth with facts, and the two don't necessarily have to be the same. It's worth noting that truth is often preceded by "I believe this is true", and belief can not exist if there is no doubt, and doubt can not exist where there is absolute/objective truth. That's why I try to say that facts are things we know for certain (or as certain as possible) exist, while truths are the things that we induce or deduce from our understandings of those facts. Facts deal more in the realm of known propositions, while truths deal more in the realm of the logical conclusions we make from those propositions.

What we really should do is create a list of philosophical ideals in all of the Eva media, and label it as "Evaism" or "Annoism." Eva is a huge melting pot of philosophy mixed with Freudian psychology. It can't be categorized because it's a philosophy unto itself. It's the Bebop of the philosophy world.

I'm not sure I'd go that far (and, fwiw, NGE is probably more indebted to Jung than Freud, but that's for another topic). Again, I think if we try to make ANY philosophical "ism" out of NGE we're missing the point that it's not so much about figuring out what NGE's philosophy is and putting it in a box, but figuring out what its smattering of philosophical and psychological topics mean to us in the context of this (meta)-fictional work. To put another way, I think philosophy/psychology is usually about saying "this is the way things are, here is my evidence, here are my arguments, I call it whateverthefuckitisism, and I want people to understand and think it's true". While NGE is more like "here is my stream-of-conscious ramblings on vaguely philosophical/psychological ideas as it relates to myself and these characters; you decide what makes sense and connects with you and use that to learn about yourself."

Like she mentioned with the "helltrain" motif, Anno is an amazing director. He can get emotion out of a single image and use it again and again.... and again. The problem is that eventually it gets past the whole "repetition for effect" idea and into the laziness side.

I guess being such a fan of classic literature I just recognized that NGE's use of motifs is pretty, well... classical. I might be tempted to say they're overused or repetitive if they were the same each time, but they're not. Each time there is a change, a variation that tackles a different thematic/narrative aspect within the series and Shinji's mind. The scene in which he confronts his self is not the same as the one where he confronts Rei or Asuka, and each of these add something to the overall effect by tying them to the same context. NGE does this with a lot of symbolic things. I once referred to it by the uber-pretentious title as the "polysemy of homeostatic symbols", which is a fancy way of saying that the same symbol can mean multiple things while achieving an internal balance by shifting its external aspects.

I also agree with her about why Shinji is such an unlikable character. I get how Anno wanted to make an opposite of what the usual character is, but you still have to make people care about him. I, personally, didn't care about him.

I've often said that the likability of a character shouldn't really effect whether or not they're a good character from a characterization standpoint. I think many would agree that there are many fascinating anti-hero losers, but I think Shinji touches a nerve because he's an anti-hero cast in a classical hero role, and the dissonance between what's expected of him and how he acts is often too much for people (even those who like the series) to reconcile.

I've often said the closest analog to Shinji is Hamlet. Think about it:

-Both begin as moody, introverted, clearly perturbed about something.
-Both are "called to action" by a relative (Hamlet-Father's Ghost, Shinji-Father)
-Both "avoid duty" through severe inaction and reluctance to carry it out.
-In both the "external events" act as a medium by which the characters examine themselves internally.
-Both continually interrupt narrative action and plot for philosophical/psychological meditations.
-Both end with events being manipulated by outside forces in which they have no control over or say.

I think Hamlet gets less grief because even though he doesn't carry out his revenge, he still DOES things. He taunts Rosencrantz, Gildenstern, and Polonius, he confronts his father's ghost, he puts on the "play within a play", he takes part in the duel, he rants and raves and really puts on a one man show. Shinji, however, just shrinks away and acts complacent, and people are infuriated by his gross inactivity in situations where he should do something.

I only become people's friends when I know that they're good people and that even if they hurt me, I'll still know that they were good people regardless.

The problem with Shinji is that it seems to him that everyone is only pretending to like him because they need him, and I don't know how far off base that is. Misato even says herself she's afraid she's simply using Shinji like a tool, and Gendo flat out TELLS him that he called him because he needed him. Asuka is hardly what you'd call "friendly" to him most of the time either, and I don't know how "obvious" it would be to any 14-year-old that she has feelings for him.

But the way he just "comes" to the conclusion in Ep. 26 is just too damn unbelievable.

Others have covered this, but consider that he DOES come to this realization inside the paradisal bliss of Instrumentality, and Instrumentality is basically like a therapy session from the inside-out as it is while REAL therapy has to dig through layers and layers of outside stuff to even get to that point.

There's the thing about Evangelion. It's emotions are like a nuclear bomb (especially in EoE). It throws all sorts of emotions at you all at once, and instead of making you cry or pulling a few heartstrings, it just shatters everything you have and leaves you empty and physically tired. It takes no prisoners and leaves none behind. I like that. It's unafraid and unforgiving and bursting at the seams with raw emotional power.

Very true.

However, I never cried at Eva. Shinji is too unrealistic (anyone who relates to him, I really am sorry) and too pathetic.

As someone who relates to Shinji, I think he's extremely truthful even if he's not entirely realistic... though I do find him far more realistic than the vast majority of "hero" characters in these types of series. I'm kinda curious as to what you thought about him was unrealistic.

My favorite show, Cowboy Bebop, is a sniper of emotion. It playfully runs around, being fun and happy and awesome, and then, suddenly, BOOM! You're crying.

Well, see, different strokes. For me, Cowboy Bebop is the pinnacle of what I'd call "well crafted entertainment", but it never once made me cry or made me emotional. I've seen far too many of its influences to be really affected by it. Most of the time I was going "wow, that's really cool" but I would never say it snuck up on me and did anything I didn't expect. I mean, the final chase scene is basically The Third Man with less shooting.

Evangelion transcends reason and logic and becomes pure and utter emotional connection. You like it based on that, and hate it based on that. Evangelion is emotion.

That's a phenomenal way of putting it.

Shinji really is a static character, but not because of the writing. He is static because as soon as he has his "epiphany" in any ending, the show ends. He can't don anything with his new found knowledge.

I don't really agree with this. Shinji isn't really a one-dimensional character at all, and I'd say that throughout the series we see almost every possible emotion that a human being can show. There are moments when he shows a remarkable amount of determination (ep. 3 and 16 and 19 especially comes to mind), but the problem is that every time he tries to play the hero something terrible always happens to him.

@TheAbhorrent  SPOILER: Show

I would say Evangelion serves as the proverbial "carrot-on-a-stick" for her. It's there, but no way in hell is it going to give it to her.

Yeah, NGE certainly isn't a series that hands the audience what they want while they sit back and allow it to, and I can understand their frustration to a point because it starts out like it IS going to.

Having watched some of her other reviews, I found a couple of themes which seem to be central to her ideal show:

- A conclusive ending.
- A work should be able to "stand on it's own".

NGE denies both to an extent...

Essentially, both are trademarks of contemporary fiction that doesn't need much external knowledge to be appreciated. NGE certainly isn't that. It provides a considerable amount of substantial gaps for the audience to fill in with their knowledge and experience and intuition. But, IMO, that is very much fitting with its nature as being a piece of deconstructionist metafiction. If it was simply a work of fiction that wanted to exist as entertaining fiction, then, by all means, offer a conclusive ending and create a work that stands on its own. But when you want people to think about the work itself as a piece of fiction, then you can't very well give them the things they look for in escapist fiction, now can you? In that sense, it doesn't make much sense to judge NGE on the very standards that it attempted to subvert.

Perhaps she's looking for nothing more than escapism, something which you can simply enjoy but leave behind at the end of it all. You can't say anything wrong with that ideal, though is NGE at fault for denying it? Subjective opinions rule there.

No, it's certainly not NGE's fault. I've said this before, but faults/flaws in art exist when an artist attempts to do something and then fails at doing that something. So if NGE was wanting to be purely a piece of entertaining mecha anime fiction, then all of her complaints would have more relevance, but since it's not, I think they're only marginally applicable even though she argues them well. Merri discussed this very thing in a thread I started about NGE being "not perfect".

I would guess JesuOtaku is not the most introspective of individuals. Her general view on existentialism could be evidence of this. Everyone is to a degree I suppose, but most people are predominantly social creatures. The point of all this is that introspection is a foreign concept to most people, and it's really hard to explain how it works to someone unfamiliar with it.

I wouldn't be so quick to throw these kinds of generalizations around. I think most people are introspective to a point, and I think most people are social to a point. I mean, even the classic stigma of geeks/nerds being "anti-social" hardly applies any more in an age when anti-social geeks can get together on forums like this or places like ComiCon. So I'm not sure the problem is that she's not introspective, but merely that her introspection isn't coming from the same place as the characters' or Anno's.

Anyhow, JesuOtaku has made some very impressive reviews. Her angle on NGE is definitely an atypical one, negative yet articulate and informative. Which makes it one of the best I've seen or read.

Still... I think she could still learn plenty about NGE and many other things. There is a lot of things which she seems to just not really understand plot-wise. Not the first time I've seen some not understand Asuka's apparent 180 in EoE.

Yeah, +1 to both of these.

Yes, it can certainly seem sudden at the end, but it can be argued that he didn't magically solve all his problems. Rather, it's just the first step in the right direction.

Very true. Like I said above, the end of EoE certainly quashes the notion that his new-found revelation will automatically translate to a change in the real world.

Again, all of his thoughts are shown before coming to the final conclusion. Every single little tidbit, all the negativity and self-loathing he sees. It's unusual to explore every single piece of data before making any decisions, but it's a way to look for some sort of underlying pattern. This could be the way Shinji thinks, and maybe Anno himself as well. I've always suspected the whole of the analysis is a mirror of his own relevation. He does say every character is an avatar of himself, perhaps Shinji first and foremost. So is this relevation unrealistic if it's grounded in a real life experience (even if accelerated)?

Yeah, another excellent point. I think it's well known that Shinji is Anno's primary avatar so it makes sense that he would be his primary mouth-piece for expressing his own thoughts.

JesuOtaku said it herself. If psychology is the pit of the human experience, philosophy is the ladder back up. NGE functions as a subversion (and possibly yet another deconstruction) of the typical "Coming of Age Story" by ending halfway. Rather than briefly delving into the pit of despair (psychology), it shows the whole of the experience. They keep going until they really hit rock bottom. The series take the first step back out (philosophy), but abruptly ends right there. Perhaps that's what makes NGE such a powerful work, there deliberately is no resolution to the plot. If Anno decided to give it a proper conclusion, it wouldn't even be half as memorable or powerful as it is now.

Damn, if you people keep making excellent and piercingly insightful posts like this I may have to secede my thrown as resident "NGE defender and NGE-as-work-of-art uber-analyzer". But, to this: Yes, definitely, yes, yes. I've said similar things in the past, especially about how NGE relates to Keats' concept of Negative Capability, but in essence, I think you're dead on about much more in depth NGE explores that "pit" and how it merely offers a glimpse of the way out but ends before they make it.

But I think that was the whole point. I said in my own personal essay on it that NGE seemed to echo my whole journey through depression, mirroring it to the point that once I was "out of the pit" I basically found myself lost in a maze, but with the lone comfort that now, of my own volition, I could conceivably find my way out. NGE ends on that note of uncertainty, saying that "OK, you've taken the first step, now the rest of the journey is up to you". And with ending at that point I think it's so much more powerful because Anno is essentially leaving it UP TO US to find our way from there. He's teaching us to fish so we can eat for a lifetime, rather than giving us a fish (some philosophical "ladder" answer) to feed us for a day.

@ZenithFleet  SPOILER: Show

A reply! From Yojimbo! In which he agrees with some stuff I said! *newbie swoon*
PS, Jimbo, this might sound a bit weird, but thanks for taking the time to reply. I appreciate it. I'm kinda used to being ignored on forums since I'm usually in the wrong time zone and so can't get into a proper conversation. Which is one reason why I suffer from wall-o-text syndrome. Maybe I should start putting everything in 9-point...

Hey, don't worry about it man. If you post it, I will come... but not in a sexual way... I mean... in an intellectual way... or something like that.

It's not a rateable series for me either. Just like The Neverending Story. It's gone beyond rankings, because of its personal importance, and to a lesser extent the impact it had on anime.

My whole reason for labeling my "10/10" rating was to reserve it for artistic masterpieces that, IMO, transcend their mediums to offer something that's immensely important to humanity, or at least representing some kind of artistic zenith that seems to achieve the best things that one can through art. Although sometimes I question *some* of the things I give 10s to, I tend to think that stuff like NGE defines what I think of as a perfect 10/10.

I rushed off to try all sorts, only to be disappointed by most of it.

Yeah, I've experienced this too. I've still yet to encounter any anime that I'd consider resides on NGE's level of greatness, but I hardly have the experience of someone like Ornette. But I'm certainly well-versed in film and I'd say the same holds true: I've seen very few films that I think are on the same level as NGE in all respects. But as for anime, the ones that have come closest (IMO) are Texhnolyze, Haibane Renmei, Grave of the Fireflies, Akira, and Ghost in the Shell -- though all for different reasons.

I haven't seen Citizen Kane (shocking I know ) and I have a dark suspicion that if I were to watch it tomorrow, even knowing its significance and overall enjoying it, I quite possibly would give it 3/4 because its innovations in cinematography, narrative, makeup etc would be diluted for me by decades of reuse.

Sure, and I definitely understand that. TS Eliot once said that all art must be understood in the context of all art that came before it. IOW, if you can't put yourself in the mind set of experiencing a work of art with, one, the knowledge of what came before it and, two, with the mind set that nothing came after, then it can be immensely challenging to understand why some works are considered great. Experience is probably the best way to combat this, and I find the more aware I become of film and film history, the easier it is for me to appreciate and even love the innovations of directors like Ford, Welles, Godard, etc.

The fact that the TV ending of NGE does this instead of resolving the arcane real-world conspiracies we all thought it was building up to was both infuriating and fascinating to me on first viewing (regardless of whether it was the original intent to end that way, given all the budget/schedule problems).

Which is all the more evidence that NGE is using its "telling" in an incredibly artistic/sophisticated way because it's not focusing on the aspects that most "telling" does (resolving key plot points, for instance).

Hmm, who's Hiroki Azuma? I just did a quick Google - is this article called 'Anime or Something Like It?"? http://www.ntticc.or.jp/pub/ic_mag/ic018/intercity/higashi_E.html

Yeah, that's the article. A really brilliant piece of analysis considering how old it is. It helped shape a lot of my more "radical" opinions about NGE. Hiroki Azuma is a Japanese Culture professor, btw, and the spelling/grammar errors are from the translation. It's pieces like that that makes me sad that we have such limited access to what the Japanese intellectuals have written about NGE.

The urge to fit things into neat and tidy boxes is the problem here. On the thematic level it is Anno's stream of conscious personal statement, not some dry analytical box-checking exercise against any particular other school of thought. And, in being a personal exorcism, that is what really gives NGE its power.

Absolutely. Very cogently said, Tines.

Those train scenes were deep and were related to other subjects of thoughts that Shinji had. It was progressive!

Yeah, they're not static repetitions (see above).

I also agree that Rei is a really underdeveloped character, after finishing the series, I couldn't understand the thing fans had for her. Sudden repeat viewings of the episodes and fan discussion, though, have revealed aspects of her that give her more personality and depth than I initially remembered from my first viewing.

It's funny she talks about NGE "telling, not showing" but then fails to recognize that Rei is an almost entirely "show, don't tell" character whose personality is constantly revealed through the subtlest visual gestures. Rei is also an elaborately developed symbolic and plot device that metaphorically, metonymically, and even literally embodies so many of NGE's core themes at once. She's an incredibly complex creation if she's not an incredibly complex character as an individual.

[BeoX2]

In reply to Jimbo.

They way Asuka acts towards Shinji (hostility and "rage") are classic ways of expressing love and affection for children with undeveloped emotions. Shinji should be smart enough to see through her feigned anger, and Misato and company should have told him, as they certainly should have seen the signs.

I find Shinji to be unrealistic because he is so utterly pathetic. He, quite literally, goes out of his way to not develop connections with people, even when they would only help him, and only wanted to help him. He is unrealistic because a boy like that would have gone to psychologists by this time, and that's only a physical aspect. He has too many problems that stem from too insignificant reasons. His dad is a dick and his mom died. I know people who's parents beat them senseless, or were crack addicts and were arrested in front of their children. Or, classically, I know orphans who had NO parental insight whatsoever. This is why the only person I find realistic is Asuka, because what she did with what she was dealt was a believable reaction. Just because Shinji's dad abandoned him doesn't mean he can't have significant relationships with other people. It's so simple, and yet he can't seem to get it, which I just can't bring myself to but into.

I'm not saying Shinji is a one dimensional character, not by a long shot. For god's sake, he's a damn dodecahedron. But that doesn't mean that he changes. He only changes (unrealistically, Instrumentality or no Instrumentality) at the very end, and he can't even put that to good use. He can't live with that knowledge, or continue living his life based on that philosophy, because he lost. It's over. The world ended, and he's trapped wherever he is. Nothing has really changed except that he can now sink back into a depression by thinking "man, if only I had known this earlier!" It's a double bittersweet ending, if that makes sense. It's sad while being happy while being sad. Shinji isn't one dimensional. He's not even really static. He's just...well, he's just sad! The only chance for redemption he has (the epiphany in EoTV) can't even save or help him! If EoTV and EoE are concurrent, he's just going to slowly starve to death while thinking about what COULD have been! It's depressing and sad, and tbh, painful to think about.

We've all had the nagging thought "what if I had known this then?" but in Shinji's case, it's more than just a nagging thought. It may be his last thought before he breathes his last breath of his rather pathetic existence.

About the whole "Shinji taking the first step" thing:

I agree completely. Shinji is not healed, but merely on the path to happiness. The only real problem is that it doesn't matter. He lost. The world ended. The only thing he has left is Asuka, a destroyed world, and the memories of his past, which will only seem more pathetic now that he knows how to achieve happiness.