EVA, Body And Soul (And Mind)

[Warren Peace]

Heya folks, long time lurker, first time poster. Have really enjoyed reading the discussions, thought it high time I actually contribute. I'm going to jump right into the deep end here with a few concepts I've been playing around with. Let's see if I don't drown.

Where to start? Alright, it seems to me that the series has three (fairly) defined concepts for what mind, body, and soul mean in it's universe. It gives us clues at different times, I think, telling us what they are. When most people say "soul", they mean "personality", the character traits that make up a human being. This is and isn't what a "soul" is in Evangelion. The show seems to think that souls encompass out innermost desires but don't dictate every element of our brains. This is because, when you graft a soul onto a completely separate body, it creates an entirely new soul. Rei is the clearest example of this -- Reis 1-3 obviously have their own souls, while also carrying the soul of Lilith. In End Of Evangelion, they even stand next to one another, despite Lilith's soul seemingly being in one place at a time. The idea seems to be that a body "injected" with a soul simultaneously carries the original, separate soul (Lilith) while also creating a new, partly independent soul (Rei).

What's that, you say? Not confused enough yet? Well, I can do better -- let's take the concept of "the mind". Minds in NGE seem to be functioning physical processes not dependent on the presence of a soul. The Reiquarium clones obviously "think" on some basic level, they're not just lifeless husks floating around in there. The dummy plug is a copy of Rei's mind without the complications of her soul. This has to do with my theory about Asuka's mother: people seem to want to cut up Kyoko's soul to explain what's in Unit-02 and what's in her original body ("Unit-02 has only Kyoko's mothering instincts", etc.). I don't think that's necessary. I'd say the simpler explanation is that Asuka's mother's soul is entirely in Unit-02, leaving her original body with the shell of her "mind", an insane, directionless collage of thoughts destined for self destruction. The mind still has the ability to (barely) function, but there's nothing behind it. She's very much a doll, an impersonation of a former human.

The soul seems to inhabit the subconscious. Yui, in blocking the falling wreckage during episode one, takes control of Unit-01 when it's deactivated. "Injected" souls don't inform every action of the body... the berserk mode is the Eva, not Yui. That kind of viciousness doesn't seem to be in her character. Hollow glee is the hallmark of a soulless mind, all the soulless creatures of the series seem to be in on a terrific joke no one knows about (heeheeheeheeheeheeheehee!). Some have theorized that Unit-00's erratic behavior has to do with some grudge of Rei 1. I'm not so sure... I think it may be crazy simply because of what it is. The manufactured soul of a clone inhabiting the body of another clone trying to synchronize with a different copy of itself... if all this makes you want to bang your head against the wall, that's how Unit-00 feels all the time!

Whew, OK, I think that covers it all. Sorry if this seems a bit scatter shot, I have a hard time organizing it myself! Still, I've wanted to bounce it off people for a while, and would be interested in what anyone thinks.

[Reichu]

The Kyoko soul-splitting thing was actually suggested by the "Classified Information" files you can unlock in the game NGE2, which Anno helped inform. The idea was certainly welcomed by those of us wondering how the heck a soulless Kyoko would be holding her body together (no soul, no A.T. Field!). She's not a Rei clone; she's a normal human being.

As for the common "I can't believe sweet Yui would rip somebody's limbs off!" dissonance, see this thread...

[NemZ]

This is because, when you graft a soul onto a completely separate body, it creates an entirely new soul. Rei is the clearest example of this -- Reis 1-3 obviously have their own souls, while also carrying the soul of Lilith.

New personality yes... but I don't agree with the idea that each has a different soul except in the sense that the soul changes into new forms with experience. The real problem is a question of memory, since in most aspects it seems that the soul takes all memory with it, yet Rei doesn't have perfect recall between transfers. How do we really know that Shinji after ep20 is the same person he was in ep19, or after 3I?

I'd say the simpler explanation is that Asuka's mother's soul is entirely in Unit-02, leaving her original body with the shell of her "mind", an insane, directionless collage of thoughts destined for self destruction.

Then how do you explain that Kyoko's 'die with me' side is present in 02 during EoE?

btw, soul splitting is also necessary to explain the chibi-Rei inhabiting 00 (which ep25 labels as Rei1)

[Warren Peace]

00 is definitely Rei 1, but I don't see why soul splitting is necessary for her to be there. Why can't it be her entire soul?

As far as the "die with me" thing goes, it's not entirely clear what's going on there. I always assumed it was Asuka herself recalling these words, not that they were being said to her. I saw it more as Kyoko arguing with Asuka (and her memories), culminating with Asuka understanding that her mother doesn't actually want her dead.

As for the common "I can't believe sweet Yui would rip somebody's limbs off!" dissonance, see this thread...

If I'm understanding your argument there, it's that the Eva's vicious actions are informed by Yui's maternal instinct. I could see that, except for Gendo's (and everybody else's) attitude towards the Evas. If Unit-01 and Yui are one in the same, why does humanity go to such lengths to control them? If Yui and Gendo are on the same page, why cover her in armor designed to limit her?

I get how inhabiting an Eva could devolve one's delicate sensibilities, but when we see Yui in (imaginary) physical form again (EOE), she's still the same person she always was, not changed at all by her experiences. This, to me, suggests that she lives in a kind of timeless stasis. In fact, if someone were to make the choice that she does at the end, to float in space possibly forever, you'd think that she has little regard for the passage of time.

[thewayneiac]

00 is definitely Rei 1, but I don't see why soul splitting is necessary for her to be there. Why can't it be her entire soul?

Because its Lilith's soul and it exists simultaneously in Unit-00 via Rei 1 and and in Rei 2. There also seems to be a third piece of it in Lilith to welcome Rei home in EOE.

You also need soul splitting to explain Kyoko's continued existence. If she lost her entire soul wouldn't she have turned into LCL, or been absorbed in her entirety like Yui?

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

"Soul splitting" does not work if you're working from any kind of monotheistic, and even polytheistic, framework. I'm not even sure if working from the framework of animism(Anno's alleged philosophy) that splitting makes sense. However, you're not supposed to be working from these frameworks when analysing NGE.

You're supposed to be working in the framework of Evangelion in which "souls" (and "minds") can be sucked into or out of bodies, spat out of bodies, are able to manifest physical bodies by the power of their will, can generate nigh impenetrable giant orange barriers, and yes, can seemingly be split and the pieces placed in several vessels.

None of this makes any sense if your concept of soul is something atomic and totally separate from the physical world. But NGE makes it quite clear that souls have location and are tied to physical bodies.

[Reichu]

As far as the "die with me" thing goes, it's not entirely clear what's going on there. I always assumed it was Asuka herself recalling these words, not that they were being said to her. I saw it more as Kyoko arguing with Asuka (and her memories), culminating with Asuka understanding that her mother doesn't actually want her dead.

Actually, Kyoko seems to be arguing with herself:

"DIE WITH ME!"
"Don't kill (her)!"

The line about not killing didn't make a lick of sense to me until someone suggested that Kyoko was responding to herself, and telling herself not to kill Asuka. In other words, she's letting us know that her insane and maternal aspects are coexisting, albeit not 100% in agreement.

If one goes with the framework that Kyoko is in conflict about her feelings toward Asuka ("protect her... or die together?"), this could potentially imply that Eva-02's defeat was a self-fulfilled prophecy...

As for the Yui stuff -- I can think of some counterparts, but I'll wait for now to see if someone a little less "close" to the issue than I can articulate them first. (BTW, did you see the entire thread?)

[AuraTwilight]

"Soul splitting" does not work if you're working from any kind of monotheistic, and even polytheistic, framework. I'm not even sure if working from the framework of animism(Anno's alleged philosophy) that splitting makes sense.

HAHAHAHA you need to read more mythology.

[Allemann]

Descartes argued that because extended matter is divisible and the mind is not, as it is only a thinking thing and no discernible parts can be perceived, the mind cannot belong to the material substance but is a distinct substance that has the property of thought, which the material substance cannot have.

[AuraTwilight]

And Evangelion's universe doesn't agree with him. What's your point?

BTW, some psychologists would disagree about the "discernable parts" thing.

[Warren Peace]

Because its Lilith's soul and it exists simultaneously in Unit-00 via Rei 1 and and in Rei 2. There also seems to be a third piece of it in Lilith to welcome Rei home in EOE.

You also need soul splitting to explain Kyoko's continued existence. If she lost her entire soul wouldn't she have turned into LCL, or been absorbed in her entirety like Yui?

If my idea is right, then a new, separate Rei soul is created every time a clone is imbued with the soul of Lilith. If that's the case, this new Rei soul could be retrieved (and re-inserted) apart from Lilith's.

The second part I think I already addressed in my first post... my idea is that when you remove the soul from a body, what's left is merely the "mind", an organism that can think but not reason or make informed moral judgments. I'm saying that Kyoko (the human) came across as insane because she had lost her soul. The symbolism of the doll is relevant here -- Kyoko is very much a human impersonation after she has lost her soul.

As for the "welcome home" stuff, who knows what's going on there? You think a piece of Lilith is welcoming her home. Could be, but there's no way of knowing. Maybe no one is welcoming her home, that it's just a stylistic device to tie EOE into episode 2. That's how I always took it.

I don't think losing her soul would've turned Kyoko into goo. As I understand it, what happens during third impact dissolves everyone's A.T. field, allowing the soul to escape. It doesn't seem like a body's solvency depends on the presence of a soul.

The line about not killing didn't make a lick of sense to me until someone suggested that Kyoko was responding to herself, and telling herself not to kill Asuka. In other words, she's letting us know that her insane and maternal aspects are coexisting, albeit not 100% in agreement.

The problem with this is that it isn't consistent, even if we assume that Kyoko's soul was divided between her body and Unit-02. If that's true, then the Eva never came into contact with the "insane" Kyoko half, it died in her original body. The only half that would have ever been present in 02 is the maternal one.

None of this makes any sense if your concept of soul is something atomic and totally separate from the physical world. But NGE makes it quite clear that souls have location and are tied to physical bodies.

Well, if you believe that EOE's red dots are souls, then they're without bodies during their journey to meet GNR.

[Legendary]

The problem with this is that it isn't consistent, even if we assume that Kyoko's soul was divided between her body and Unit-02. If that's true, then the Eva never came into contact with the "insane" Kyoko half, it died in her original body. The only half that would have ever been present in 02 is the maternal one.

Ah, but souls are clearly recoverable. Kensuke says he doesn't have a mom anymore, Hikari implies a lack of one via the way she cooks. They are both piloting candidates.

You also assume souls are retrievable here:

this new Rei soul could be retrieved

[Warren Peace]

Souls are clearly retrievable, sure. I think what you're saying is that Seele or somebody could've taken the insane half of her soul post-Mortem and reunited it with the maternal half in the Eva. I suppose that's possible, but I dunno, there are a lot of fences to jump to get to that point. For one, why would they want to? If it's true that these two sides are battling it out in 02, it was a huge mistake to combine them. Better to have left only the "good" Kyoko. And it's not as if they would need the insane half, it would only give them problems. I don't see the upside, from Nerv/Seele/Gehirn's perspective, in doing that.

[Allemann]

BTW, some psychologists would disagree about the "discernable parts" thing.

I didn't said that he was right. I consider our minds as having a modular architecture.

[thewayneiac]

I don't think losing her soul would've turned Kyoko into goo. As I understand it, what happens during third impact dissolves everyone's A.T. field, allowing the soul to escape. It doesn't seem like a body's solvency depends on the presence of a soul.

But Kaworu explicitly tells us that the A.T. Field is the light of the soul. It's the soul that generates the A.T. Field. No soul, no A.T. Field, no body.

You are adding an unneccessary complication when you explain the Reis' differing personalities by theorizing that they have two souls each. There is a much simpler explanation that is consistent with the facts as we know them:

As you know, in the Eva universe the philosophy is that one's interactions with others is what defines one as a person. In the case of Rei, this is further complicated by her incomplete soul. Rei 2's personality is completely different from Rei 1's for two reasons:

1. Rei 1's piece of Lilith's soul was further divided between Rei 2 and Unit-00, making Rei 2's soul more incomplete. It seems that the parts that went into Eva were important for free will, leaving Rei 2 a doll-like character who just obeyed orders. (Remember her saying she would need orders to make friends with Asuka?) Only under extreme circumstances does she act decisively, as in Ep. 23. Meanwhile, Rei 1's soul takes over Unit-00 twice to try to get revenge. It easily thinks for itself.

2. Rei 2 has a major change in circumstance from Rei 1. Rei 1 was apparently being raised by Gendo, who tells Naoko that he's looking after a friend's child. Rei 2 was raised in Nerv's basement; it must have been almost like being raised in prison. This lasted until her first year of Middle School.

"Hmmm, come to think of it, she hasn't made any friends since she transferred here in first year."

With a passive incomplete soul and being raised in a basement away from everyone but Nerv personel, it's no surprise that she can't make friends.

Rei 3's personality is different from Rei 2's also for two reasons:

1. A more complete soul: Rei 2's death together with the destruction of Unit-00 gave them the opportunity to reunite the two halves of Rei 1's soul in Rei 3. This leaves only whatever was left behind in Lilith missing, and this might be just a vestigal soul, just enough to keep her producing LCL.

2. Rei 3 had two major personality altering experiences Rei 2 lacked. Her anger at Gendo for forcing her back to life after she had finally chosen death, and her emerging realizaion of her true identity after her encounter with Kaworu.

It was her disaffection from Gendo together with her restored soul with the quick-acting Unit-00 portion restored that allowed her to choose Shinji over Gendo in EOE.

[NemZ]

(Remember her saying she would need orders to make friends with Asuka?)

I believe that was Rei's version of telling off the annoying girl. Roughly translated: "the only way I will consider you a friend is if I am ordered to do so... now get out of my light, bitch."

[thewayneiac]

I believe that was Rei's version of telling off the annoying girl. Roughly translated: "the only way I will consider you a friend is if I am ordered to do so... now get out of my light, bitch."

That's what we're supposed to think it means the first time we watch the show.

[NemZ]

I agree with your argument in principle, I just think it's a bad example.

[AuraTwilight]

For one, why would they want to? If it's true that these two sides are battling it out in 02, it was a huge mistake to combine them. Better to have left only the "good" Kyoko. And it's not as if they would need the insane half, it would only give them problems. I don't see the upside, from Nerv/Seele/Gehirn's perspective, in doing that.

We don't know how Eva really works. Maybe half of a soul isn't enough, so they needed the "bad" so the fucking thing would work. Maybe SEELE figured out it would work in their favor when it was time to kill off Unit 02.

[Legendary]

For one, why would they want to? If it's true that these two sides are battling it out in 02, it was a huge mistake to combine them. Better to have left only the "good" Kyoko. And it's not as if they would need the insane half, it would only give them problems. I don't see the upside, from Nerv/Seele/Gehirn's perspective, in doing that.

Eva-00 is also assumed to have a split soul, specifically, the parts of Rei that constitute a survival instinct. Notice how completely fucked up it is. Notice the fact that not once is Rei congratulated for her sync ratio - I think Shinji outpaces her pretty quickly.

It's entirely possible Eva-02 behaved like that until they restored the soul to normal.