Seeds. Angels. Evas. Humans. Inconsistencies!

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Postby skikes » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:01 pm

View Original PostAshPhoenix wrote:And also, the FAR... is human?


I would consider the FAR to be both, humans with the power of angels.

Edit: Reichu's chart inspired me to do one of my own. It's a rough draft. I know it's a bit of an eye sore with all the colours, but I couldn't think of a clearer way of putting it. Any notes, thoughts?

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Postby AuraTwilight » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:14 pm

....Um, thanks for the....reiteration of a point brought up a few posts above?
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Postby NemZ » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:20 pm

This would all be so much easier if they'd used the word 'person' instead of 'human' when talking in the universal sense.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:19 pm

It would be, but when has Evangelion ever gone for the easier way of explaining shit?
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Postby AshPhoenix » Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:10 pm

Almost everything looks good to me except for the FAR, and even that's just a doubt on my part. Are the anatomy/orgins of the FAR revealed enough to determine exactly what they are? For now, I think the FAR should be designated as a different type of life-form altogether...unless somebody can point out evidence pertaining to the FAR's "species".

And I would think that if Kaworu is designated as both Angel and human, Rei should be as well.

(and, uh, I'm not sure if you did this intentionally or not, but don't forget the other 5 Seeds of Life.)
Ritsuko: It can't be...an Angel devoured an Eva? That's impossible!
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Postby Cody MacArthur Fett » Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:54 pm

View Original PostAshPhoenix wrote:Almost everything looks good to me except for the FAR, and even that's just a doubt on my part. Are the anatomy/orgins of the FAR revealed enough to determine exactly what they are? For now, I think the FAR should be designated as a different type of life-form altogether...unless somebody can point out evidence pertaining to the FAR's "species".

How much intel has been revealed about the FAR? Well, the designation for the people who built the Black and White Moons is the First Ancestral Race, and that's it. The FAR themselves could be anyone from dimension-hopping humans to sapient lithium-based space weasels. So yeah, we really know squat about these guys.
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Postby skikes » Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:03 am

View Original PostAshPhoenix wrote:Almost everything looks good to me except for the FAR, and even that's just a doubt on my part. Are the anatomy/orgins of the FAR revealed enough to determine exactly what they are? For now, I think the FAR should be designated as a different type of life-form altogether...unless somebody can point out evidence pertaining to the FAR's "species".

And I would think that if Kaworu is designated as both Angel and human, Rei should be as well.

(and, uh, I'm not sure if you did this intentionally or not, but don't forget the other 5 Seeds of Life.)


Other 5 seeds of life?
I thought the same about Rei... but the chart disagreed with me lol. She has a human body and a human soul. Lilith is human, just a giant one that has super powers.
The far I'm not sure about, they are at the very least both but maybe a lot more. I suppose your right, I'll change it.
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Postby TehDonutKing » Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:30 am

I'm surprised this hasn't been split yet.
/hj

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Postby Reichu » Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:50 pm

I'll split it later... If I did it now, I'd accidentally the whole thread. [EDIT: Okay, done. Looks like this post repeats a lot of the crap I wrote earlier, too. Oh well.]

According to the CI, the FAR are "humanoid", and according to the conversation between Kaworu and the Mystery Seed, the FAR's souls were either invested into the seven Seeds of Life or put towards the Seeds' future offspring. (There was a good conversation about this and its corollaries somewhere...)

The point of my graph, confusing as it is, was to designate what the show itself calls Angel and Human, and, in doing so, help elucidate what these terms (or their "broad" definitions) "really mean", since they are, understandably, the source of considerable confusion.

"Human" clearly takes on a definition that is more metaphysical than purely biological. I think, probably, the only way to make any sense of it is to consider the FAR the first Humans, who created the Seeds (humans in turn) to propagate humanity in various forms. This could be by starting from scratch (LCL), and somehow directing evolution toward the humanoid form (e.g. Lilin), into which the Fruit of Knowledge would be invested; or by creating human godlings at the onset, bearing the Fruit of Life and capable of exploiting their humanity on a very different level.

As for "Angel", this is a lot more difficult, but IMO we can reach a "broad definition" that generally works by considering what "Angel" literally means. Both "Angel", and its Japanese equivalent "shito" (Apostle), deal with the idea of a messenger. Looking across the series at the various things that have been plastered with the term -- from Seeds, to Adam's children, to us -- what could we possibly be messengers of?

The FAR, and the "message" is humanity.*

* (This would mean that the Evas and Rei are implicitly Angels as well, despite not being listed in Seele's catalogue -- but this understanding seems to generally exist anyway.)

NB: skikes, "Lilin" refers solely to our species (Kaworu talking about "Lilin civilization" and how he and Rei have the "forms of Lilin", etc., and the CI entry that flat-out states it).
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Postby skikes » Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:10 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:NB: skikes, "Lilin" refers solely to our species (Kaworu talking about "Lilin civilization" and how he and Rei have the "forms
of Lilin", etc., and the CI entry that flat-out states it).


Right... off to make revisions, though I'm trying to look at it from a biological stance and discarding metaphorical terms used within the show. I should put that in the notes.
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Postby Reichu » Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:21 pm

View Original Postskikes wrote:I'm trying to look at it from a biological stance and discarding metaphorical terms used within the show.

I'm not clear how you're making a distinction between what to take seriously and what to disregard. One also has to take the sci-fi framework into account (which is what I attempted to do in my own resolution). The less within the show that has to be handwaved ("It's just a metaphor") to make sense of everything, the better, I would think.

From a biological standpoint, "Lilin" refers to a single species, so I'm not sure what the problem there is.
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Postby AshPhoenix » Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:11 pm

Reichu wrote:From a biological standpoint, "Lilin" refers to a single species, so I'm not sure what the problem there is.

I thought "Lilin" refers to Lilith-derived organisms, so wouldn't it technically refer to EVERY species on Earth excluding Angels? So I would think that "Lilin" and "Human" are not interchangeable.

I think what skikes is trying to say is that, for example, an Angel physically may not be the same thing as an Angel metaphorically. (For example, Lilith is physically considered an Angel in the show, but metaphorically, it is human.)
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Postby Azathoth » Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:16 pm

View Original PostAshPhoenix wrote:I thought "Lilin" refers to Lilith-derived organisms, so wouldn't it technically refer to EVERY species on Earth excluding Angels? So I would think that "Lilin" and "Human" are not interchangeable.


Kaworu apparently does not agree, and he is the only person who actually uses the term. While it would make more sense for everything that comes from Lilith to be Lilin, it seems from the way he uses the term that the only true Lilin are those that contribute to Lilith's goal - or something like that. At any rate Lilin have a culture, as Kaworu perceives it, which does not seem to make much sense if you apply the name Lilin to all Lilith-spawn.

On an unrelated note, every time I read the title of this thread I read it in the voice of Mordin from Mass Effect.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:56 pm

In sum, all lifeforms born from Lilith are Lilith-Derived Organisms. Only Homo Sapiens count as Lilin, the 18th Angel, because Angels and Humans are pretty much the same thing.
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Postby AshPhoenix » Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:05 pm

AuraTwilight wrote:In sum, all lifeforms born from Lilith are Lilith-Derived Organisms. Only Homo Sapiens count as Lilin, the 18th Angel, because Angels and Humans are pretty much the same thing.

But Angels and Humans AREN'T the same thing. They're similar beings, I give you that, but they have fundamental differences (composition, what they are derived from, appearances, etc.) that shows that they can't really be classified as the same thing.
Ritsuko: It can't be...an Angel devoured an Eva? That's impossible!
Maya: That's strange. The target's identification signal is turning into Zerogouki's!
~Once again proving...you are what you eat.~

(After adding something sexual to a perfectly normal post) "Fixed." --Apparently everybody on this forum.
It is unnerving to be proven wrong, particularly when you are really right and the person who is really wrong is the one who is proving you wrong and proving himself, wrongly, right. Right?

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Postby Reichu » Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:37 pm

View Original PostAshPhoenix wrote:But Angels and Humans AREN'T the same thing.

The show calls enough things both "Angel" and "human" that you may have to rethink this. ;p

(I don't think they're the SAME thing, as I elaborate above, but I think one group encompasses the other.)
Last edited by Reichu on Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:08 pm

The body isn't what matters: They have the same type of soul, and their psychologies are only different due to different life experiences. Mentally, they're interchangable. They're both human.
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Postby Qaiz » Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:48 pm

Its not really the body that makes them human tho, its the soul. Yui is what makes Eva unit 1 'human'. And just like Kyoko Zeppelin Soryu is in Eva unit 2. She is the consciousness that exists inside of the eva. Without her, the eva is just scrap, am I correct in saying that? I mean why would they need a dummy plug then?

Thats the way I see it anyways.

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Postby Reichu » Sun Dec 26, 2010 12:58 am

View Original PostQaiz wrote:Its not really the body that makes them human tho, its the soul. Yui is what makes Eva unit 1 'human'. (snip)

Being "human" in NGE seems to be primarily spiritual and secondarily physical. The physical aspect comes through in examples such as Gendo referring to the Adam embryo as the "first human" (despite Adam being kind of soulless at the time); and the Evas being referred to as both "artificial humans" and "humans made from Adam" (making it sound like being human is an intrinsic part of the Evangelion condition, despite the fact that having a soul is not).
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Postby AshPhoenix » Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:32 pm

Well...when you put it like that, I guess "Angel" and "Human" ARE interchangeable. :nod:
I'll use the terms more loosely, then.

So would you need a soul to be considered Human/Angel?
I would think that the mental processes of Angels would be different from those of Humans (seeing as each "race" has a different fruit).
Also, the point that you bring up about Evas being "artificial humans" really puts the whole "humans trying to imitate God" thing into a new light.
Ritsuko: It can't be...an Angel devoured an Eva? That's impossible!
Maya: That's strange. The target's identification signal is turning into Zerogouki's!
~Once again proving...you are what you eat.~

(After adding something sexual to a perfectly normal post) "Fixed." --Apparently everybody on this forum.
It is unnerving to be proven wrong, particularly when you are really right and the person who is really wrong is the one who is proving you wrong and proving himself, wrongly, right. Right?


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