The War between Lilith and Adam

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only, covering the original TV series, the movies End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth.

Moderator: Board Staff

Forum rules
By visiting this forum, you agree to read the rules for discussion and abide by them.
Grimmjow
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Posts: 390
Joined: Jan 20, 2010

The War between Lilith and Adam

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Grimmjow » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:50 pm

I believe that the events in NGE can be described as a war between Adam and Lilith.

Firstly, I shall examine the origins of humanity as explained by NGE. When Lilith and Adam came to Earth, Lilith's Lance of Longinus was destroyed while Adam's was not. The Lance's purpose is to retard evolution and growth. Hence, Lilith was free to expand and spread her LCL onto earth. From her LCL sprang all known life forms.

In NGE, there is a clear divide between one's soul and one's body. The soul is immortal. This is the reason why the soul of Yui can live on in Eva unit 01 and how the souls of dead could be gathered into Lilith's Black Egg during 3I.

Hence it is my theory that the souls of humans were born in Lilith's Black Egg. However, humanity decided to reject this form of Instrumentality and acquire AT fields. Hence the bodies of humans sprang from the LCL and their souls were attached. In Biblical terms, they ate the Fruit of Knowledge thus they gained the knowledge to realize they could exist in separate forms. However due to this sin, they were separated from the Fruit of Life aka S2 organs. Adam had nothing to do with the creation of humanity and their subsequent bodies. Humans are the offspring of Lilith and Lilith alone. This is confirmed by the fact that Kaworu calls humans, "Lilim" which is obviously a derivative of Lilith.

The Lance of Longinus retarded the evolution of Adam, thus he was unable to release his LCL. However, the souls of the Angels were born in his white egg and there they would remain until 2I. One can say that the purpose of the Lance is not to destroy the Seeds nor to reduce their ability to create. It simply stops them from creating organic beings.

When Seele discovered Adam, they removed his Lance thus allowing him to evolve. However, they tried to restrain and control Adam. This is why imo Adam appears to have shoulder restraints attached to his body.
Image
Adam probably interpreted Seele's actions against him as acts of aggression, thus he decided to wipe out these foolish creations of Lilith by self destructing his body and freeing his Angels Seele then used the Lance to try to stop him. With this massive amount of energy, evolution sped up thus creating the bodies of the Angels. Adam's body was reduced to a fetus and his white egg was destroyed. However, his soul was separated from his body and injected into the Angel Tabris aka Kaworu Since the Angels were still in a form of Instrumentality when they were rudely awakened, they retained the forms that they imagined themselves to be during Instrumentality and they kept their Fruit of Life.

Here's where things get a little tricky. For some of the Angels, they simply wanted to be reunited with their father Adam. For others, they may have desired to join with Lilith to create a 3I and wipe out the humans. Regardless of their intentions, Nerv decided to wage war against the descendants of Adam and then use Adam as a tool to be reunited with their mother.

Eva unit 01 was created to be the new Adam. It was removed from the body of Lilith the mother of humanity rather than Adam. Humanity wanted to create a new Adam that they could use to bring humanity to its former state.
The Seeds of Life are death to each other. Adam's power can break down the AT Fields of humans. Nerv needed this power to remove humans from their bodies, but they also needed their God Lilith to gather their souls together once more.

Thus the descendants of Lilith engaged the descendants of Adam in war. In the end Lilith was victorious but the new Adam that Nerv created chose to reject Lilith and Instrumentality. This is the irony of 3I and Seele's plans. In the end, it was the god they created in Lilith and Adam's image that would be the death of Adam, Lilith, and most of humanity.

In conclusion, can we say that Adam and Lilith were at war with each other prior to 1I? To be honest, we cannot tell for sure. The Gods seem to often fall victim to circumstances, Lilith loosing her Lance, Adam being awakened by humans. However, we may be able to gain some insight into their character by their circumstances and actions.
For one, Adam seems to be the God of Death and Judgment. He attempts to eradicate the sinful human race and his very presense causes death. During 3I, he is used to wipe out the human race. One might say he is like the God of the OT, sending out his messengers to judge the sinners.

On the other hand, Lilith is the God of Rebirth. She is the one who brings humans back into her womb. The imagery surrounding her is quite telling. She is crucified and her blood gives life. She wants to forgive the sinners and bring them back to their former state. This reminds me a lot of Jesus. Thus, one could say that Adam and Lilith are involved in a conflict due to their conflicting natures. However, Kaworu's existence may pose a threat to his theory. He has the soul of Adam within him, thus he represents Adam's character. He simply allows the Lilim to gain control of 3I once he realizes that the object down in Terminal Dogma was not Adam but Lilith. We can interpret his actions in a few ways. No 1: He simply wanted to give the Lilim a chance to perform their plans. No 2: He is simply apathetic. No 3: He did not want to be joined with Lilith because of his conflicting nature aka conflict with Lilith. If the third option is true, then the War between the two seeds is true. One can say the same thing about Rei's character. She is self sacrificing at the core and in the end she decides to give the keys of bliss to Shinji because of her love. She is also highly maternal which goes along with the character of Lilith being the mother of humanity

However, the Gods are not the main players here. It is their offspring who wage the wars and make a new God. Hence, they are the ones who should be evaluated intensenly, more so than the Gods.
Please excuse any spelling errors.(I think that's all. I'll add more to my theory if I think of anything else).
Last edited by Grimmjow on Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

ObsessiveMathsFreak
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
User avatar
Posts: 2855
Joined: Mar 23, 2005
Location: Working on the Commentary

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:13 pm

Much of the above is more or less along the lines of the standard conclusions of analysis, though there are some divergences. I don't have time to give a detailed response right now, but I will take the opportunity to ask why the Duel of the Seeds was dropped from the "fanon" so abruptly. I had always felt that some kind of ancient "conflict" between Adam and Lilith was in keeping with the tone of the series.
[Became an administrator on or before October 4th, 2007.]
May The Maths Be With You.

SleepS
Embryo
User avatar
Posts: 44
Joined: Dec 29, 2008
Location: Manhattan
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby SleepS » Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:24 pm

Alright, I'm going to be a n00b here and ask: what's Duel of the Seeds? This isn't the first time I've heard it on this forum....

EDIT: Answered by Reichu.
Last edited by SleepS on Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Grimmjow
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Posts: 390
Joined: Jan 20, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Grimmjow » Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:29 pm

I think the reason the "Duel of the Seeds" was dropped was because the EoE gave an impression that the Seeds wanted to be rejoined, the state of conflict was over who would hold the keys to their union.

Had both of the Seeds lost their Lance, both Angels and Humans may have appeared at similar time frames. Although we cannot be sure of this fact, the Angels may have chosen to remain in bliss. Or it's also possible that Adam and Lilith would have intermingled and formed something entirely different!

In the Izanami Izanagi myth, Izanagi(Adam) used his spear to bridge the gap between them and thus they mated and created Japan.

In Eva's case, this is the myth gone all wrong. Lilith and Adam are kept separate the spear afflicts Adam. Thus they create two different races that are at war with each other.

*this was more of a response to Mathfreak's question. I'm going to edit my OP and add a few things to it*

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:38 pm

A lot of ideas here that I've never really seen before -- at least, brought together in such a manner. I'm not quite sure what to think at the moment, so for now I'll just watch, and wait for OP to finish posting the rest.

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:I will take the opportunity to ask why the Duel of the Seeds was dropped from the "fanon" so abruptly. I had always felt that some kind of ancient "conflict" between Adam and Lilith was in keeping with the tone of the series.

http://wiki.evageeks.org/Radioactive_Waste#Duel_of_the_Seeds

Or is that not in-depth enough? (Also, you sure you want to hijack Grimmjob's thread this early on?)

Grimmjow wrote:I think the reason the "Duel of the Seeds" was dropped was because (snip)

This isn't why those who popularized Duel of the Seeds ended up disowning it (see link above), and I've never heard this argumentation used specifically to discredit DotS in the past.

Did you actually mean to say that

EoE gave an impression that the Seeds wanted to be rejoined, the state of conflict was over who would hold the keys to their union.


is why YOU don't think Adam and Lilith ever combated?
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog

Grimmjow
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Posts: 390
Joined: Jan 20, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Grimmjow » Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:41 pm

I didn't say anything about Lilith and Adam being involved in a conflict before 1I. I merely stated an impression I got from EoE which I have now disavowed.

AuraTwilight
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Posts: 3334
Joined: Mar 16, 2008
Location: Za Warudo

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AuraTwilight » Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:09 pm

However due to this sin, they were separated from the Fruit of Life aka S2 organs.


Lilim could've never had the Fruit of Life because their mother, Lilith, did
not have it. Adam and Lilith are opposite in that regards. Also, Instrumentality is antithetical to the Seeds of Lifes' goals, as it's not really living. It's an unnatural state of existence,and we were always intended to be physical beings.

The Lance of Longinus retarded the evolution of Adam, thus he was unable to release his LCL. However, the souls of the Angels were born in his white egg and there they would remain until 2I.


Adam is a female if anything, Adam does not produce LCL as it's Lilith's blood specifically, and it was the Angels' bodies that were premade prior to 2I. 2I was the release of the souls.

Adam probably interpreted Seele's actions against him as acts of aggression, thus he decided to wipe out these foolish creations of Lilith by self destructing his body


Adam did not intentionally self-destruct, that was an error: It seems to be due to some human DNA he was injected with, which also created Tabris.

Here's where things get a little tricky. For some of the Angels, they simply wanted to be reunited with their father Adam. For others, they may have desired to join with Lilith to create a 3I and wipe out the humans.


Incorrect, it's merging with Adam, their mother, that causes 3I. They sought Lilith only because they thought she was Adam, and were mistaken.

For one, Adam seems to be the God of Death and Judgment. He attempts to eradicate the sinful human race and his very presense causes death. During 3I, he is used to wipe out the human race. One might say he is like the God of the OT, sending out his messengers to judge the sinners.


Adam is a loving, benevolent mother of Life, who probably bears absolutely no ill will to Lilith, but a sense of companionship if anything. However, Adam and Lilith are not meant to live on the same planet whatsoever, and their children cannot coexist. Someone has to go by pure protocol.

On the other hand, Lilith is the God of Rebirth. She is the one who brings humans back into her womb.


Doing this is explicitly antithetical to Lilith's purpose, and she only gained the ability to do so after merging with Adam, becoming a godlike, forbidden being.

She wants to forgive the sinners and bring them back to their former state.


What sinners? Humanity didn't do anything wrong; it's going into Instrumentality which is against her will.

I think the reason the "Duel of the Seeds" was dropped was because the EoE gave an impression that the Seeds wanted to be rejoined, the state of conflict was over who would hold the keys to their union.


What makes you think that? Adam and Lilith never make any attempt at contact: Gendo forces them together whether they like it or not.
J_Faulkner, be warned that some of your statements could be construed as ad hominem attacks. -- Priceless, eternal irony

Anno has perfected the side boob --Gendo'sPapa

Grimmjow
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Posts: 390
Joined: Jan 20, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Grimmjow » Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:30 pm

AuraTwilight wrote:
Lilim could've never had the Fruit of Life because their mother, Lilith, did
not have it. Adam and Lilith are opposite in that regards. Also, Instrumentality is antithetical to the Seeds of Lifes' goals, as it's not really living. It's an unnatural state of existence,and we were always intended to be physical beings

Yet Lilith does possess immortality. How could it be a Seed of Life if it doesn't? Perhaps she does not possess an S2 organ, but there probably is another thing that allows her to be immortal.



AuraTwilight wrote:Adam is a female if anything, Adam does not produce LCL as it's Lilith's blood specifically, and it was the Angels' bodies that were premade prior to 2I. 2I was the release of the souls.

Their gender in the end is irrevelant since they both can produce life without each other. I agree that it is possible that the Angel's bodies were premade. However it is just as possible that the huge energy from 2I did speed up the process.



AuraTwilight wrote:Adam did not intentionally self-destruct, that was an error: It seems to be due to some human DNA he was injected with, which also created Tabris.

That would seem to be more of a reaction against the invasive Lilim from entering his body.



AuraTwilight wrote:Incorrect, it's merging with Adam, their mother, that causes 3I. They sought Lilith only because they thought she was Adam, and were mistaken.

It is also possible for them to bring about their own version of 3I by fusing Adam with Lilith. Angels appear to be drawn to the Seeds of Life, no matter what they are.



AuraTwilight wrote:Adam is a loving, benevolent mother of Life, who probably bears absolutely no ill will to Lilith, but a sense of companionship if anything. However, Adam and Lilith are not meant to live on the same planet whatsoever, and their children cannot coexist. Someone has to go by pure protocol.

Maybe loving towards its own children the Angels but not as much so towards Lilith. Tabris seemed to be fascniated by the Lilim and Lilith but not particullary loving. The only reason he said Rei was the same as him was because he sensed a Seed of Life within her. Even his reaction to Shinji imo is done less out of love and more out of an interest in the Lilim.
Perhaps one can say the same for Adam. He was intriguied by the Lilim. Or we could also say by that point he was completely helpless.


AuraTwilight wrote:Doing this is explicitly antithetical to Lilith's purpose, and she only gained the ability to do so after merging with Adam, becoming a godlike, forbidden being



What sinners? Humanity didn't do anything wrong; it's going into Instrumentality which is against her will.

Humanity chose to gain the knowledge that comes from the AT field hence they were separated from their mother. They went down to a lower existence than the Angels. At least the Angels have the ability to naturally reunite with Adam, humans have to use different means.

AuraTwilight wrote:What makes you think that? Adam and Lilith never make any attempt at contact: Gendo forces them together whether they like it or not.


Well we can't really say that for sure since throughout most of history, either one of them was restrained by a lance or they were being manipulated by the humans.

In addition the term antithesis can also mean that their purposes were at odds or that they were originally enemies.

Enki v.2
Eva Technician
Eva Technician
User avatar
Age: 36
Posts: 1464
Joined: Mar 08, 2008
Location: Twenty minutes into the f
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Enki v.2 » Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:30 pm

I'm going to throw out a bit from an extra-canonical source for a moment, in the hope that somebody might be able to use it to support canon. It's beyond me at the moment, but I don't think Anno and the other writers are as ignorant as they claim about the Pointless Religious References, so I will bring it up and see if someone can expand:

In gnosticism, it is claimed that the material universe was a miscarriage caused when Saint Sophia tried to "reunite with the father" too quickly. The material universe in Kaballah is associated with Adam Kadamon. Though Hagia Sophia is not associated with Lillith as far as I can tell, there is a point to speculation. Hagia Sophi ("Saint Wisdom") a gave birth to the physical universe because she screwed the True Demiurge/God/YHVH/whoever too soon and rather than a universe of platonic forms, gave birth to deformed material universe (or, alternately, Urizen -- the Blind God and False Demiurge -- who then went on a spree of turning platonic forms into damaged material things and screwing everything up while taking the credit).

EDIT: Extra credit tie in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sun_%28occult_symbol%29#The_Vienna_Circle
Pay special attention to the hermetic/alchemical significance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sun_%28alchemy%29#The_two_suns_in_the_hermetic_tradition

VoidEater
Matarael
Matarael
User avatar
Posts: 580
Joined: Sep 11, 2008
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby VoidEater » Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:28 pm

Er...assumes facts not in evidence...
"I would like to see a clown remake of 'Terms of Endearment' or 'The Thorn Birds.' Or maybe a big disaster movie, like 'Towering Inferno.' That's stuff I'd pay to see. Nothing says entertainment more than burning clowns."

Enki v.2
Eva Technician
Eva Technician
User avatar
Age: 36
Posts: 1464
Joined: Mar 08, 2008
Location: Twenty minutes into the f
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Enki v.2 » Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:37 pm

VoidEater wrote:Er...assumes facts not in evidence...


That was kinda the point, which is why I didn't put forth a hypothesis, but instead a similar narrative that the Gainax crew might have become passingly familiar with when doing the cursory research for the PRRs.

VoidEater
Matarael
Matarael
User avatar
Posts: 580
Joined: Sep 11, 2008
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby VoidEater » Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:39 pm

^ I was referring to the OP, though to be equally critical NGE does not delve into the origins of universe nor life (just Lilith and Adam life).

A bit rushed, but I must disagree.

The only battle between the SoLs I see can be a war of ideas or a war by proxy - and only as an effect, not as an intent.

It's interesting to develop the thought that the LoY retards evolution and growth; but that seems a bit of a jump from what we actually see (control mechanism for SoL, component of Tree of Life).

There is little reason to demand that the (human) soul is immortal - it is suggested that Yui's soul can exist indefinitely with the right body (01), but there's alternate thought on the disposition of a (human) soul after the body's death. I don't think it's possible to categorically call all souls immortal in NGE. The cross-bursts during 3I suggest that sould are being reclaimed from the living, not from graves (all that tanging to consider, as well). Souls do not need to be immortal to be gathered back to Lilith at 3I.

There is enough reference, I think, to Lilith's Chamber of Guf, an obvious reference to Judaic thought, as the source of human souls. So, we know where they come from.

There is no indication that humanity rejected anything. It is rather explicit that evolution of life was an expected and natural part of Lilith life. It is Seele's obstruction of that natural process that leads back to unity, a rejection of individual life.

It is explicit that AT Fields are a natural part of the soul. Kaworu doesn't give us a history lesson on how humans obtained souls, he tells us the AT Field is "the light of the soul." Doesn't sound like something usurped by rejection of something else.

There is no indication that anything metaphysical in NGE is due to "sin", there is no "fall of man" from God's grace theme. This seems wholly being read in.

It is explicit that the Fruit of Life = S2, and humans don't have it. There is no indication that they did or should have it. There is plenty to tell us the two fruits are not ever meant to be present together. It's one of the running themes.

In Biblical terms, we are only dealing with the effects of having the fruit of knowledge, not that it was consumed. It's rather explicit that the FoK is inherited. Indeed it's pretty hard to determine how FoK/FoL plays as a theme without going pre-Biblical.

There is no indication Adam has LCL.

There's no indication that SoLs evolve.

If Adam sploded hisself, how exactly would Seele use the Lance on him? And, what would Seele be trying to do after he sploded and released his seeds?

Isn't Adam's white egg still in orbit around the Earth?

To be precise, it's not "humanity" that wanted to go back to the (Lilith) womb - it's Seele.

Clearly the SoLs are not "death" to each other. Indeed, they coalesce into something the FAR seemed pretty much to want to avoid.

Was Lilith victorious? Seems a rather Pyrrhic victory, as far as we can see.

Actually, this little kid, Shinji, was victorious in the end.

Yes, if we take 2nd tier canon (CI) into account, we can say that Lilith and Adam were not at war in the beginning. There is no reason to think they "met" prior to being sent on ther journey, or were even aware of each other like evar (at least until Kaworu shows up). It seems we're told the Angels aren't communicating with either SoL.

Lilith is not a God, nor is Adam - and "Gods seem to often fall victim to circumstance" only in non Judeo-Christian mythos.

Adam as God of Death? What mythos is that coming from? Not anything NGE says it is based on. His presence causes death? Where? Do his Eva children inherit this?

Where do the Angels judge anyone? They don't even seem to have analytical minds.

Lilith "forgives" "sinners"? Not that I see.

I just don't see that Adam or Lilith were particularly involved in "war", nor do they seem to have made any purposeful moves against each other. Rather, each fulfilled their respective functions and scattered seed.

Though I must say Bad End is great reading.
"I would like to see a clown remake of 'Terms of Endearment' or 'The Thorn Birds.' Or maybe a big disaster movie, like 'Towering Inferno.' That's stuff I'd pay to see. Nothing says entertainment more than burning clowns."

Grimmjow
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Posts: 390
Joined: Jan 20, 2010

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Grimmjow » Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:40 pm

Enki v.2 wrote:I'm going to throw out a bit from an extra-canonical source for a moment, in the hope that somebody might be able to use it to support canon. It's beyond me at the moment, but I don't think Anno and the other writers are as ignorant as they claim about the Pointless Religious References, so I will bring it up and see if someone can expand:

In gnosticism, it is claimed that the material universe was a miscarriage caused when Saint Sophia tried to "reunite with the father" too quickly. The material universe in Kaballah is associated with Adam Kadamon. Though Hagia Sophia is not associated with Lillith as far as I can tell, there is a point to speculation. Hagia Sophi ("Saint Wisdom") a gave birth to the physical universe because she screwed the True Demiurge/God/YHVH/whoever too soon and rather than a universe of platonic forms, gave birth to deformed material universe (or, alternately, Urizen -- the Blind God and False Demiurge -- who then went on a spree of turning platonic forms into damaged material things and screwing everything up while taking the credit).

EDIT: Extra credit tie in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sun_%28occult_symbol%29#The_Vienna_Circle
Pay special attention to the hermetic/alchemical significance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sun_%28alchemy%29#The_two_suns_in_the_hermetic_tradition


Thanks for the info. Eva has piped my interest in Kaballahism and Gnosticism.

I also agree that the religious references in Eva are not so meaningless as Anno claims them to be. There are far too many coincidences in the imagery used in Eva

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:06 pm

You've covered a lot of my own thoughts, VoidEater. (I notice the attempt to avoid OmniSlashing... :hahaha:) Here's a couple of additions, where I shall sin and actually use quotations.

VoidEater wrote:I was referring to the OP, though to be equally critical NGE does not delve into the origins of universe nor life (just Lilith and Adam life).

There are some interesting possible hints dropped in the "prelude" part of the show's OP. Did you ever see the thread where I started rambling about them? (Reportedly "epic" hijack starts here.)

There is enough reference, I think, to Lilith's Chamber of Guf, an obvious reference to Judaic thought, as the source of human souls. So, we know where they come from.

Reading Grimm's post, I got the impression that vis idea was sourced from Fuyutsuki's line in EoE about Lilith's Egg/Black Moon being "the source of human life". (Though, since the Chamber of Guf is later shown to somewhat paradoxically exist in both Lilith AND the Black Moon at the same time, perhaps the layers of weirdness can somehow be reconciled.)

There is no indication that anything metaphysical in NGE is due to "sin", there is no "fall of man" from God's grace theme. This seems wholly being read in.

The closest territory I can recall is Gendo's reference in episode #12 to "a world cleansed of the original sin" (whatever exactly he meant in that context), and Seele's reference in #26' to Red Earth Purification Ceremony (following up on Gendo's reference and implying that this Impact-y stuff is "purifying" the world of something).

There is no indication Adam has LCL.

Adam being able to emit it in some way, i.e. via her core, might not be entirely out of the question -- see that "origins of life" thread hijack for more -- but I agree with you in spirit, in that there's no indication Adam was intended to Seed life by leaking LCL all over the place.

Isn't Adam's white egg still in orbit around the Earth?

No, it was completed destroyed at 2I. (In #24', Seele refer to it as "lost".)

There is no reason to think they "met" prior to being sent on ther journey, or were even aware of each other like evar (at least until Kaworu shows up).

I guess it depends on whether or not one wants to believe they have souls recycled from mortals or not... :3

Though I must say Bad End is great reading.

Here... have a bag of money!
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog

Enki v.2
Eva Technician
Eva Technician
User avatar
Age: 36
Posts: 1464
Joined: Mar 08, 2008
Location: Twenty minutes into the f
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Enki v.2 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:56 am

Grimmjow wrote:I also agree that the religious references in Eva are not so meaningless as Anno claims them to be. There are far too many coincidences in the imagery used in Eva


One of the dangers of a hermetic method of analysis (i.e., to assume both an exoteric and an esoteric meaning) is the law of fives -- given enough time and effort, one can convince oneself that any given narrative has any given esoteric meaning. However, in this case, I am at least somewhat confident that Anno-tachi did some cursory research (even if they didn't intend half of what they put in), and it is the nature of gnostic media that even unintended meanings are useful.

By the by, the symbol explained by Reichu as representing the beginning of the universe in the OP? Yeah.. I'm used to calling the symbol "the monad", but I can't seem to find the canon explanation I'm used to in clear terms on the nets. It's supposed to represent the whole of the universe in mystical terms: the dot in the centre is the 'spirit' or 'masculine essence' that causes motion and makes things move, and the circle on the outside is the 'feminine essence' that is a border and a boundary to keep the effects of the spirit in and reflect it back.

ObsessiveMathsFreak
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
User avatar
Posts: 2855
Joined: Mar 23, 2005
Location: Working on the Commentary

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:36 pm

Reichu wrote:(I notice the attempt to avoid OmniSlashing... :hahaha:)

I also noticed it, and I shed a single tear at the elegant simplicity of the solution. (Not that more meaty replies wouldn't have been more preferable.)
[Became an administrator on or before October 4th, 2007.]
May The Maths Be With You.

AuraTwilight
Angel
Angel
User avatar
Posts: 3334
Joined: Mar 16, 2008
Location: Za Warudo

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AuraTwilight » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:11 pm

Grimmjow wrote:Yet Lilith does possess immortality. How could it be a Seed of Life if it doesn't? Perhaps she does not possess an S2 organ, but there probably is another thing that allows her to be immortal.


Indeed. She does not possess the Fruit of Life, but the Fruit of Life was "Infinite energy", not "immortality", which are similiar but still distinct, as the Evas are functionally immortal even if they can't remain eternally mobile. Though it's on very flimsy basis, I've proposed before that Lilith draws what she needs from quantum void energy, since she exhibits quantum aspects throughout.

It is also possible for them to bring about their own version of 3I by fusing Adam with Lilith. Angels appear to be drawn to the Seeds of Life, no matter what they are.


When an Angel realizes he found Lilith instead of Adam, they gave up. Merging with Adam effectively revives her, allowing her to wipe out the Lilin and do her job. Merging Adam and Lilith creates an unnatural, forbidden omnipotent God creature that SEELE and Gendo want to create so they can topple the natural order and basically reshape the world.

Maybe loving towards its own children the Angels but not as much so towards Lilith. Tabris seemed to be fascniated by the Lilim and Lilith but not particullary loving. The only reason he said Rei was the same as him was because he sensed a Seed of Life within her. Even his reaction to Shinji imo is done less out of love and more out of an interest in the Lilim.
Perhaps one can say the same for Adam. He was intriguied by the Lilim. Or we could also say by that point he was completely helpless.


Assuming he wasn't lying, Kaworu does love mankind. Atleast, he was willing to betray his kind and die for us, learning the futility of his actions.

Humanity chose to gain the knowledge that comes from the AT field hence they were separated from their mother. They went down to a lower existence than the Angels. At least the Angels have the ability to naturally reunite with Adam, humans have to use different means.


Angels have the Fruit of Life, and can effectively do magic. Their ability to merge seems to be the only way to ease their loneliness, as they can't communicate except through becoming one with someone. However, mankind has the Fruit of Knowledge, but we're all counted as one Angel. While some have speculated that science is our Fruit of Knowledge, I propose that the Fruit of Knowledge is actually our ability to socialize, know one another, and find happiness and companionship in other people without losing our own sense of self. In this sense, Instrumentality is actually the sin here, as it's a denial of our one and only gift as Lilim.

Well we can't really say that for sure since throughout most of history, either one of them was restrained by a lance or they were being manipulated by the humans.

In addition the term antithesis can also mean that their purposes were at odds or that they were originally enemies.


Adam and Lilith aren't supposed to share a planet; one of them arrived on mistake. While they have no ill will towards each other, effectively being co-workers, they can't share the planet, and it's too late for one of them to leave, since they don't exactly have space-ships. Someone has to go, but no hard feelings.
J_Faulkner, be warned that some of your statements could be construed as ad hominem attacks. -- Priceless, eternal irony

Anno has perfected the side boob --Gendo'sPapa

Enki v.2
Eva Technician
Eva Technician
User avatar
Age: 36
Posts: 1464
Joined: Mar 08, 2008
Location: Twenty minutes into the f
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Enki v.2 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:21 pm

AuraTwilight wrote:
Maybe loving towards its own children the Angels but not as much so towards Lilith. Tabris seemed to be fascniated by the Lilim and Lilith but not particullary loving. The only reason he said Rei was the same as him was because he sensed a Seed of Life within her. Even his reaction to Shinji imo is done less out of love and more out of an interest in the Lilim.
Perhaps one can say the same for Adam. He was intriguied by the Lilim. Or we could also say by that point he was completely helpless.


Assuming he wasn't lying, Kaworu does love mankind. Atleast, he was willing to betray his kind and die for us, learning the futility of his actions.


Tabris is the Angel of Free Will. I got the impression that agency and its outcome were the brunt of his 'attack' -- he made Shinji and the others make a hard decision and accept it. In a way, that's the worst kind -- sort of like that cow in the Hitchhiker's Guide books that wants to be made into hamburgers. He got his 'freedom' in return for caging the others with guilt.

That said, there may not have in fact been a way to fail. The existence of a prophecy may hint towards the constant statement of 'we cannot fail' being more literal than expected: the angels did not exist to stop the process, but to influence it by acting as ritual gate guardians -- one must go through X ordeals of attributes Y in order to pass, with the ordeals not intended as a deal-breaker but more a ritual drama that puts the mind in the proper state for the end. Not only the contents of the series, but the series itself in of itself may be viewed through this lens. Ritual drama are occasionally hypersigilic in nature, and use the language of dreams (and thus, despite being psychologically impactive, are highly susceptible to mutation -- hence the fanon that has in a uniquely gnostic manner overtaken and cohabited with the canon).

VoidEater
Matarael
Matarael
User avatar
Posts: 580
Joined: Sep 11, 2008
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby VoidEater » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:41 pm

I cannot be dogmatic with such bigger brainz present, and I still learn or coming here wouldn't be as much fun...

Reichu wrote:...Gendo's reference in episode #12 to "a world cleansed of the original sin" (whatever exactly he meant in that context), and Seele's reference in #26' to Red Earth Purification Ceremony

I see Seele's comment as being POV, while Gendo's is more ambiguous - I'd like to take that as bitterness over being removed from Yui rather than telling us something omniscient.

Reichu wrote:Adam being able to emit it in some way, i.e. via her core, might not be entirely out of the question

Now that you mention it, there's that LCL-like stuff in Leliel when 01 breaks free...consider me spanked.

Reichu wrote:Here... have a bag of money!

;-)
"I would like to see a clown remake of 'Terms of Endearment' or 'The Thorn Birds.' Or maybe a big disaster movie, like 'Towering Inferno.' That's stuff I'd pay to see. Nothing says entertainment more than burning clowns."

Enki v.2
Eva Technician
Eva Technician
User avatar
Age: 36
Posts: 1464
Joined: Mar 08, 2008
Location: Twenty minutes into the f
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Enki v.2 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:24 pm

VoidEater wrote:I cannot be dogmatic with such bigger brainz present, and I still learn or coming here wouldn't be as much fun...

Reichu wrote:...Gendo's reference in episode #12 to "a world cleansed of the original sin" (whatever exactly he meant in that context), and Seele's reference in #26' to Red Earth Purification Ceremony

I see Seele's comment as being POV, while Gendo's is more ambiguous - I'd like to take that as bitterness over being removed from Yui rather than telling us something omniscient.

If we go with the gnostic angle (which, again, is merely conjecture at the moment) the original sin is the material form of the universe quite literally. To take this literally and gnostically would make a lot of sense -- complete destruction of material forms, particularly those held by the AT field, would quite literally be the dissolution of original sin in gnostic canon. Furthermore, the fruit of knowledge could be conceived of as knowledge of mortal and material existence without the benefit of an S2 organ or quantum magic, a knowledge of a separate and flawed existence of which Sophia is patron.


Return to “Evangelion TV Series + EoE Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests