Medium- & Transition Guide-Rei Mechanics

[Chuckman]

Rei's double appearance there is to suggest the nonlinerality of the death experience. For Rei after her ascent, "time" doesn't matter. To peg her appearance at a certain time is the same thing as a two dimensional being trying to fix our place on a line as we look down on it from above.

Everyone who dies experiences a subjective eternity in limbo, waiting to be picked up by Rei. Shinji has been to this limbo and come back (multiple times, actually) and Asuka ends up in one until Shinji pulls her out of it. She was probably stuck there- her Eva was destroyed, so it's likely she couldn't have reconstituted herself.

At the same time, Rei appears to them at the moment of death. (With the exception of Asuka) Time has no meaning for her. She was in effect waiting to be born so she could be in all times at once and grab everybody at the same time. Unlike everyone else, who Rei sort of tricks by appearing as someone they want to connect with, Shinji is so self centered he can't achieve this connection with Asuka and has to wake her up from her dream by murdering her imaginary body.

Thus, we see Rei gathering some souls twice- when she actually collects them (on death) and at the point where the collection begins in the dimension of linear time the cast occupies.

This all ties back to the borrowings from Western theology worked into the show- the dead are in their grave waiting for the Last Judgement, but when it actually happens, for them no time has passed at all. This is a notion in Judaism as I understand it, and certain strains of Christianity. I'm not arguing that Anno et. al. are theology professors here- they would have picked this stuff up if they bothered to read a few pages of the kind of book or source where they would find some of the more esoteric motifs they used, like the Tree of Life.

[Bagheera]

But since Asuka is inside here entry plug when she dies, then that would mean that Rei cannot collect her. For Rei to do so would break precedent needed later when Shinji is in his entry plug during Complementation. If Asuka is to be collected, then she must be collected later.

Can't see an issue here, since the final Spear from the MPEs hit Kyoko's core. That would frag the plug, which makes the issue go away.

What if this is correct?

Doubtful. Shinji's in the plug, as you say, and has no way to "liberate" Asuka without Rei's help. If she can help him do it she can do it on her own. Further, he can't do it until after they're already in P3II, at which point the deed is done.

Also, this is way off thematically as Shinji's in full-on selfish prick mode at the time. The notion that he's liberating people to help them out is completely at odds with his arc's themes at the time (particularly when it comes to Asuka).

In short, the problem here is: In what way was Asuka "complemented", and when did she "complement"?

Same as everyone else, far as I can tell. We just don't see it because she's chunky kibble at the time and even Anno has limits when it comes to good taste (Kyoko's dismemberment notwithstanding).

[Chuckman]

Can't see an issue here, since the final Spear from the MPEs hit Kyoko's core. That would frag the plug, which makes the issue go away.



Doubtful. Shinji's in the plug, as you say, and has no way to "liberate" Asuka without Rei's help. If she can help him do it she can do it on her own. Further, he can't do it until after they're already in P3II, at which point the deed is done.

Also, this is way off thematically as Shinji's in full-on selfish prick mode at the time. The notion that he's liberating people to help them out is completely at odds with his arc's themes at the time (particularly when it comes to Asuka).

I didn't say he liberated her to help her out. He ran to her for the same reasons he ran to her before, and shocked her out of her equivalent of the hell train effectively by accident.

Asuka while she's in the kitchen isn't part of Instrumentality. She has to be yanked out of that state before she can join it. Shinji was unknowingly doing to her what Rei was doing to everyone else. The state she was in- sitting alone in a place of personal significance to her- is where every soul ends up until they're collected (from their perspective).

None of this is directly explained, but it's there in the text to piece together.

[Bagheera]

I understand what you're saying, I just don't buy it. Again, Rei doesn't need Shinji's help to do her job. There's nothing he can do that she can't.

And I'm still fuzzy on why you think the kitchen is Asuka's hell train. AFAICR we haven't seen anything elsewhere in the story that would indicate such.

[Chuckman]

I pieced it together from the symbolic framework in EoE. In most of the surreal sequences during Third Impact characters just appear, usually during a cut to a different shot. We specifically see Shinji walking into the kitchen. That information is presented to us for a reason. The environment here is more "stable", with no surreal intrusions (other than Pen Pen watching and judging)

She's sitting there alone, as if waiting for someone to arrive. She's also dead, as her body has been destroyed. No one could survive disembowelment and a wound to the arm like that. However, when we see her arm split open there's undifferentiated red inside, which is odd given that the film doesn't shy away from gore anywhere else. When we see her arm split, she's already starting to turn into LCL, but the camera leaves her before we see the now split plugsuit sleeve floating empty. Whether this was a defensive reaction or Kyoko tanged her to spare her the pain of her injuries, I don't know; it may have simply been coincidence as the Eva started to go berserk.

Further, he approaches from the left, which is the receiving side of the spiritual body. Consequently what we see is him approaching her, entering a space where she already exists. Shinji ran to her, rather than anyone else who was dead and waiting to be gathered into the black egg, because he ran to her for solace earlier in the film.

[Bagheera]

I pieced it together from the symbolic framework in EoE. In most of the surreal sequences during Third Impact characters just appear, usually during a cut to a different shot. We specifically see Shinji walking into the kitchen. That information is presented to us for a reason. The environment here is more "stable", with no surreal intrusions (other than Pen Pen watching and judging)

I don't think that leads where you're going, though. I think he enters that scene because he was previously in the hell train and was transitioning from one place to another -- don't forget, we saw another bit of the kitchen scene before he entered there (the kiss which became a kick), among other things. It's clear he's not bound to any one place during that entire sequence.

She's sitting there alone, as if waiting for someone to arrive. She's also dead, as her body has been destroyed. No one could survive disembowelment and a wound to the arm like that. However, when we see her arm split open there's undifferentiated red inside, which is odd given that the film doesn't shy away from gore anywhere else. When we see her arm split, she's already starting to turn into LCL, but the camera leaves her before we see the now split plugsuit sleeve floating empty. Whether this was a defensive reaction or Kyoko tanged her to spare her the pain of her injuries, I don't know; it may have simply been coincidence as the Eva started to go berserk.

But that happened when she was finished, right before the Spears destroyed Kyoko for good. Again, the final one hit the core -- that's what fragged Asuka, even if she was alive at the time. I think what we saw is less undifferentiated LCL and more "this is what happens when something that fucks with your ATF cuts you open".

Further, he approaches from the left, which is the receiving side of the spiritual body. Consequently what we see is him approaching her, entering a space where she already exists. Shinji ran to her, rather than anyone else who was dead and waiting to be gathered into the black egg, because he ran to her for solace earlier in the film.

And because he was afraid of Misato and Rei, as established in that very scene. There weren't any other options at that point. IMO this whole scene is staged by Rei to let Shinji and Asuka interact in ways they can understand. I don't see any reason to think Shinji's acting as Asuka's guide any more than she is his.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Couldn't we just assume that the entry plug was destroyed by the M.P. Evas? That would eliminate the impediment. This does, however, remind me of an interesting old theory that Misato's escape capsule survives Second Impact because it is based upon entry plug technology. This could be considered additional evidence.

The entry plug being destroyed does seem like the most obvious conclusion. We are never show the plug, destroyed or otherwise, though EoE is in general, fairly scant when it comes to plug-shots.

But, how speculative as it is, what if we were to assume that Asuka's entry plug wasn't destroyed? Where would that take us? Would the resulting events of 3I still make sense?

And I'm still fuzzy on why you think the kitchen is Asuka's hell train. AFAICR we haven't seen anything elsewhere in the story that would indicate such.

The Kitchen scen in #15 was the moment where Asuka lost it all; Shinji and Kaji, all in one night. Her ultimate descent can be traced back to this very point, and is explicitly so traced in her dreamscape sequence in #22'. Moreover, in the beginning of #22', we are shown the kitchen as the place where she finally learned of Kaji's death.

If Asuka did have a Helltrain, the Misato's Kitchen would be as good a candidate as any.

Which begs the question: Is this really Asuka's Helltrain? Is this room Asuka's personal mental construct, which Shinji has just walked in on? Bear in mind that we have circumstantial evidence that Shinji Helltrain is a personal mental construct which others can "walk into".

[Bagheera]

It's possible, but I don't think it raises that question since Anno doesn't seem to have used the kitchen in that fashion. Put another way I think it's a valid interpretation but it's not something I'd claim to be so based on what we see in the show.

It does strike me as odd that Shinji's defining moment would take place in Asuka's hell train, though.

[SleepS]

When Rei collects souls, she's not actually killing anyone; she's liberating them.

Thus, we see Rei gathering some souls twice- when she actually collects them (on death) and at the point where the collection begins in the dimension of linear time the cast occupies.

I think it's important distinguish the difference in appearances of Rei. From what I gather, and please correct me if I'm wrong, you're saying that Rei's appearances are essentially the same; to collect the souls in the eventual occurrence of Instrumentality. While I agree with you partly, I was under the impression, that the general consensus was (from the old ANF thread "Does Asuka die?" and just general lurking on this here board) that the first appearance of Rei that is exclusively shown upon Misato and Ritsuko's death was meant as an indication of their participation in Pre-Instrumentality. Asuka, Misato, Ritsuko, and Rei by divine-Lilith extension. Rei doesn't begin collecting souls to be complemented until Shinji gives the okay ("everybody can just die") and Instrumentality proper starts. This is where we see everyone being visited by Rei and reverted back into LCL including Misato and Ritsuko (and presumably, Asuka).

If Rei truly does visit everybody at the moment of their death, I just find it hard to believe that we wouldn't have any other instances where we're shown this, whether it be a motif from the series, at Asuka's demise, or some random NERV personnel. To me, the movie supports the theory much more that Ghostly Rei Appearance #1 (seen by only Misato and Ritsuko) = medium from pre-Instrumentality participation and Ghostly Rei Appearance #2 (seen by everyone) = medium to be collected for contemplation and reverted into LCL.[/quote]

[Chuckman]

The first appearance of Rei was in Episode 1, and that is the key.

She doesn't have "first" appearances. Concepts like first, last, now, later, etc. don't apply to her.

The entire notion of "Pre Insturmentality" needlessly complicates things and imposes linearality and causation where it does not apply.

We humans perceive the first three dimensions folded through the fourth. I can look at a line drawn on a piece of paper, a two dimensional figure, and see the whole thing at once, and I can choose to interact with it anywhere I please by, say, touching a given point with my finger. I can even touch multiple points.

Similarly, I can pick up a cube and do the same thing. Now, the interesting part. I can only see part of the three dimensional figure at once, unless it's transparent, because I'm folding the third dimension through the fourth- I'm only seeing one specific point in time, the fourth dimension. I can see any position in the lower dimensions but only one in the fourth, which limits my vision.

When Rei ascends and becomes the ghostly figure, she folds the fourth dimension through the fifth, which she occupies. When she looks at a person she sees them as a snake or a cloud, connecting all points that they have occupied in space and in time. Just like I can touch any point or points on the straight line, Rei can touch any point in a person's existence. We know she can do this because she chose to appear to appear to Shinji more than once- in my analogy, he touched her finger to more than one point on a line.

A hypothetical two dimensional being who has only length and width and is infinitely thin would perceive three dimensional objects as hyperthin slices, unable to perceive more than a given set of points in their third dimension.

So it is with humans and quantum Rei. When they see her appearing to them, they're seeing an infinitely thin slice of a being that exists in the fourth dimension. So from our perspective, she came into being at the end of EoE, but has always existed because "before" and "after" are as meaningless to her as the linearality of a drawn line. We can see it, but are in no way bound to it.

Instrumentality is a single point in quantum Rei's perception, which is not bound by time or space. There is no distinction between Pre and Post, there is only Instrumentality. Souls freed from bodies no longer have bodies and are, therefore, no longer bound by time, which is an artifact of our perceptions.

Trying to put an order to the events of humanity's mass communion with the divine in EoE is doing the exact thing the series constantly warns against, trying to force the sublime into a human framework of perception.

Consequently, souls gathered by Rei exist in multiple states simultaneously. Everyone who ever died waited, disembodied, until Rei picked them up, for years or decades or longer, and was simultaneously picked up immediately. She's not limited to a given span of time.

[Felipe]

Oh, Jesus.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Actually, Rei/Lilith travelling through time is a pretty venerable theory by now though the relevant wiki page is a bit of a mess. But while this may or may not be the case for Rei, I tend to favour a linear experience for the rest of the cast.

[SleepS]

Chuckman I think your views on how Rei transcends time and such are actually quite legit, and line up with the generally accepted notion (which OMF linked via wiki entry). The point I was originally trying to make is WHY we are privy to Misato and Ritsuko's vision of Rei before they die and not Asuka's (whether you support the idea of Pre-Instrumentality or think it complicates things). Personally, yes, I can see Rei being a sort of Grim Reaper symbol, collecting all souls before they die so that they may complemented; it's a stretch and up for debate, but I give your thorough thoughts kudos. Regardless, we can assume that those present in Pre-Instrumentality, or whatever you want to call the Helltrain/Sandbox/Coffee pot scenes, have been visited by Rei, or else how would their mind's be connected to Shinji's and able to communicate with him? It's already been established that these scenes are not memories, nor hallucinations on Shinji's part, but that his mind is actually interacting with the minds of others. My original point being, whether Rei is acting as a Grim Reaper of sorts, collecting all souls as they die, regardless or a timeframe, or the simply collecting participants for Pre-Instrumentality, why are we shown her appearance before Mistao and Ritsuko's death, but not Asuka's (I've never bought that Anno just didn't want to show Asuka mangled in the cock pit. There were other instances in which he could have inserted this image if he wanted to; he is a genius, after all)?

Shin-seiki posted on an old ANF thread about finding meaning in the apparent absence of Rei when Asuka dies (again, not when Instrumentality-proper has started and all souls are being collected and the form is reverted to LCL) which I've posted above, but I'll post again:

I can't get away from the idea that Anno was trying to tell us something by the fact that we don't see Rei appear to Asuka as she dies, nor do we see her turn to Tang during 3I. Of the five participants in Shinji's "Pre-3I" Complementation sequence, we see Rei appear by Misato and Ritsuko as they die; apparently she is serving as a 'medium' to connect their minds to the process, while Shinji, of course, is Tangified within the entry plug, and Rei is, well, a giant white deity at this point, who is sort of making all this happen. That leaves Asuka; is she there because Rei appeared to her as she died, like Misato and Ritsuko? If so, why doesn't Anno show it? Or is her presence to be accounted for in a way somewhat like what's going on with Shinji, i.e. Tangification within her entry plug due to hyper-synchronization right at the moment that the Harpies finish EVA-02 off? I'm not trying to argue that she didn't 'die', just that she died under very unique circumstances...

I'm pretty happy with Shin-seiki's explanation that I posted a few posts ago about things in Eva happing in threes, but I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts on the whole thing, particularly OMF, if you've given some thought to it (you mentioned in your first post that you may have).

[Bagheera]

Actually, Rei/Lilith travelling through time is a pretty venerable theory by now though the relevant wiki page is a bit of a mess. But while this may or may not be the case for Rei, I tend to favour a linear experience for the rest of the cast.

Venerable, yes, but not uncontroversial. I've noted in the past that everything on that page can be explained by Lilith being everywhere at once, an established ability, with no temporal shenanigans required -- she simply manifests it in more subtle fashion most of the time.

Lilith is the mother of humanity. It makes sense that she'd be keeping watch over us from day one, and would continue to do so even after she "died".

Edit: Also, I'm a little fuzzy on the fuss about why we don't see Rei "collecting" Asuka. We know she did, because there Asuka is, so how does it matter beyond that?

[SleepS]

It's not "fuss" per se, I was just bringing the point up for discussion based on Shin-seiki's comments that it might be Anno trying to tell us something by showing Rei in each instance other than Asuka. What is actually determined from that is up to the brilliant minds here. :)

[Mr. Tines]

We know she did, because there Asuka is, so how does it matter beyond that?

Who did she see come for her?

[Bagheera]

Who did she see come for her?

Well, that's my question. Who cares? We know someone had to come for her, because there she is. And since Rei's the only one we know of with the ability to be the soul guide or whatever aren't we just fussing about what's shown or not vs. what actually happened?

[Mr. Tines]

Well, that's my question. Who cares?

If her psychopomp manifested as a specific cast member, then any ambiguity would be lost in later scenes.

[Chuckman]

EoE is so meticulously constructed and detailed that any omission is in and of itself a statement.

[AuraTwilight]

If her psychopomp manifested as a specific cast member, then any ambiguity would be lost in later scenes.

That being said, we can probably narrow down her psychopomp to being her mother, Shinji, or Kaji.