An EoE Theory that's been confusing me [Concurrency]

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An EoE Theory that's been confusing me [Concurrency]

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Postby Hatsumi92 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:08 pm

Ok so the other day someone asked me about The End of Evangelion in an AIM chat room.
So i just told him it was made because of the backlash of the last two episodes, Episode 25 and 26 of the TV series so you just forget 25 and 26 ever happened, But then my other friend said "Well no episode 25 and 26 of the TV series is happening in Shinji's mind in EoE" another one of my friends agreed with him and said this is a proven theory.
This totally confused me, i've never heard of this theory, i've heard of episode 25 and 26 taking place in his mind whilst he's sitting on that chair with his head down, but not taking place in End of Evangelion.

i'm sorry if this makes me sound like a total idiot i'm just a little confused.

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Postby Xard » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:10 pm

Read this for starters :)

This actually seems to be the "orthodox" interprepation around here. There are some who maintain that two endings are separate (NemZ and Tines-san come to my mind first) though.

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Re: an End of Evangelion Theory what has been confusing me

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:17 pm

Hatsumi92 wrote:So i just told him it was made because of the backlash of the last two episodes, Episode 25 and 26 of the TV series

Production of The End of Evangelion was publicly announced only two weeks after the final episode aired. It's preposterous to think that after episode 26 they had no plans whatsoever to redo the ending, and then people got pissed and they formalized in that short span of time plans for an expensive, lengthy undertaking.

The plans to redo the ending at a later date were undoubtedly decide upon internally before those two episodes had even aired.

Hatsumi92 wrote:"Well no episode 25 and 26 of the TV series is happening in Shinji's mind in EoE" another one of my friends agreed with him and said this is a proven theory.

Most people around here agree with that theory, some so staunchly in support of it that dissent is met with violent opposition. I disagree with the belief in the concurrence of the two endings, but that's my personal view. It's interesting fan theory, worth giving a consideration.

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Postby Hatsumi92 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:24 pm

Okay, so reading the link you just gave me. That makes a bit more sense than someone just saying they run together.

i myself used to just believe they were seperate and the TV series ending never happened.

Production of The End of Evangelion was publicly announced only two weeks after the final episode aired. It's preposterous to think that after episode 26 they had no plans whatsoever to redo the ending, and then people got pissed and they formalized in that short span of time plans for an expensive, lengthy undertaking.

The plans to redo the ending at a later date were undoubtedly decide upon internally before those two episodes had even aired.


i know it was kind of stupid and lazy of me to just say it was because of the Death Threats and people wantng a better ending, but i didn't exactly know the full story of why it was made at the time.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:27 pm

Xard wrote:Read this for starters :)

This actually seems to be the "orthodox" interprepation around here. There are some who maintain that two endings are separate (NemZ and Tines-san come to my mind first) though.



This on all counts. I personally take the concurrency to the extreme, but that's another thing. :sweatdrop:

Also, people were pissed off about how Rebirth ended (where the death-threats are from), not EoTV or EoE!
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Postby Xard » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:29 pm

I for one view that burden of proof lie on those who deny their concurrence or synchronity or whatever one wants to name it

According to my understanding it was both EoTV and Rebirth that provoked RAEG...

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Postby Hatsumi92 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:40 pm

I Honestly like Death and Rebirth. Hell I even enjoyed the last two episodes, but i can see what viewers would get mad about.
And to be honest this is the only subject i'm confused about in Eva, i can understand everything else just not this so much, but i guess thats the same with quite a few people here.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:05 pm

Found it!

http://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_Analysis:List_of_Common_Misconceptions#.22Anno.27s_Revenge.22

Finally, some argue that the smoking gun for Anno's revenge is the sequence of quickly flashing (about one per frame) death threats/hate mail which can be seen at the end of the live action sequence in the second half of the movie. However this rumor was started, it was probably propagated by the Commentary track on the Manga Entertainment release of End of Evangelion, where Amanda Winn Lee gives a mention of hate mail during this sequence[Source needed]. Since these have been translated to English, the majority of the letters and emails are that of personal attachment to the show, praise, or encouragement/anticipation for the End of Evangelion movie. Only one of the emails can be considered 'hate mail', and it was criticizing Death and Rebirth (not the end of the TV series at all), and the only 2 possible instances that could be considered a 'death threat' was graffiti on the wall outside of Gainax's studio (which was hypothesized to be from religious fanatics) and an email that said "Anno, I'll kill you!!!", which was a close-up of only that message on a computer monitor and lacked any context whatsoever. This puts the smoking gun argument on very shaky ground, as the sequence clearly isn't used as a "This is why I'm taking revenge on you people" message, or anything along those lines.


Hope this helps.
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Postby Hatsumi92 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:12 pm

Oh wow, i remember listening to that commentary track too.

but it's nice to know the truth behind it. Thank You.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:16 pm

We can see the real world leaking into episode 25 and match that up to EoE


The real difference comes after Shinji finally makes a decision -- the Ascended TV finale or the damnation that closes EoE.
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Postby NemZ » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:51 pm

I don't have any problem saying that 25 and 25' are concurrent... EoTV shows the internal dillemas while EoE shows the physical jeapordy, and both show a little of the other.

Where that breaks down for me is 26/26'. EoTV has an entirely different spin on things... A/S angle is almost completely absent, far more people are willing and able to talk to Shinji (including some that don't appear at all in EoE's instrumentality and some who don't even appear in EoE at all), the alternate world has an entirely different feel/purpose, and the endings... I can't begin to guess how anyone can think they have any commonality there:

EoE: I want to go back to how things were, even if it hurts again.

EoTV: I can find happiness in an entirely new way of life, too.
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Postby esselfortium » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:59 pm

But accepting instrumentality isn't "an entirely new way of life". It's the complete death of one's existence as a conscious individual. "Congratulations" is for rejecting it and realizing that life is worth living, unless EoTV is gleefully advocating suicide.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:04 pm

esselfortium wrote:But accepting instrumentality isn't "an entirely new way of life".
EoTV is not about accepting Instrumentality -- it is about breaking the shell of the world (for the revolution of the world); and then joining everyone else in the newly Ascended human noosphere that has transcended the mere groupthink of Instrumentality.
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Postby esselfortium » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:15 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:
esselfortium wrote:But accepting instrumentality isn't "an entirely new way of life".
EoTV is not about accepting Instrumentality -- it is about breaking the shell of the world (for the revolution of the world); and then joining everyone else in the newly Ascended human noosphere that has transcended the mere groupthink of Instrumentality.

I wasn't aware that was even an *option* in instrumentality! And to think, I could have ascended to the heaven of eternal clapping on a big blue ball...

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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:25 pm

esselfortium wrote:I wasn't aware that was even an *option* in instrumentality!
All it semed to take was a little dash of self-actualization

Yes. I am nothing but I.
I am I. I wish to be I.
I want to stay here!


and the shell breaks, and newborn is hatched

esselfortium wrote:And to think, I could have ascended to the heaven of eternal clapping on a big blue ball...


into some consensus scene where the laggard newcomer is greeted, before getting too deeply involved in post-human existence to be comprehensible to an unascended audience.
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Postby esselfortium » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:37 pm

That's kind of a lame, punch-out moral. Rather than dealing with your problems, let's all turn into mutual nothingness? Seriously?

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Postby Xard » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:38 pm

esselfortium wrote:That's kind of a lame, punch-out moral. Rather than dealing with your problems, let's all turn into mutual nothingness? Seriously?


as much as I agree with you I don't this kind of small scale argument is capable of being productive...

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:41 pm

Problem is what Tines interprets with EoTV or EoE really makes no sense given what the dialogue and images actually show.

Best example in EoTV is how the auditorium breaking apart/revealing everybody parallels EoE with the Black Moon being destroyed and everybody's souls being freed from Instrumentality.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:48 pm

esselfortium wrote:Rather than dealing with your problems, let's all turn into mutual nothingness? Seriously?
What we have here is a failure to communicate...

At the end of ep 26, pretty much everyone whose names we know have avoided/emerged from the pit-trap of mutual nothingness -- into a finer place than this physical world. It says YES!! to the Techno-Rapture, and leaves us on the threshold we can no longer follow. In a world full of thanatist sour-grapes tales, EoTVs unflinching embrace of the concept of post-mortal pure mentality as the outcome of Gendo's master plan (that had been slid past SEELE's plotting) came as something refreshing and honest.

EOE, on the other hand... As I said elsewhere, while it looked like all the rest of humanity joined the Rapture, the two pilots ended up with their own special damnation.
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Postby NemZ » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:17 pm

Indeed, what is being missed here is that EoTV insrumentality /= EoE instrumentality.

In EoTV the walls come down but nobody squishes everyone into a single mess of pointlessness, hence there is no 'suicide' in accepting it. Instead people are still individuals while having access to others minds. Reality has become consensual (or possibly always was and nobody noticed until now), with individuals free to associate or dissociate with others as they please, warping their private worlds without limit and shared spaces only bound by the wills of others.

In a nutshell:

EoE = Yui wins (though Seele thinks they do, at least at first)
EoTV = Gendo wins
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