Angels' Motivations

[SaltyJoe]

Hmm, it seems that the main school of thought is that the Angels wanted to cause Third Impact to wipe out humanity: that is, they were consciously planning to kill us all. but what if their desire to reuinte with Adam was more of a simple, instinctive drive to return to mommy, that would simply result in causing Third Impact?

Also wasn't it mentioned in one of the supplemental sources that Lilith was skewered with Adam's lance? Maybe this made her give off, uhm, more "Adam"-y signals (yeah, i'm reaching for straws)?

It would make sense for Seele to set up Lilith as a false Adam (somehow): this way they could always pinpoint where the Angels would attack, thus giving them a tactical advantage.

Bah, this whole Adam/Lilith deal seems to be one of the victims of the "make stuff up as we go along" approach.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Well, the Eva were Adam clones (except Eva-01 was a Lilith clone; and Eva-00 had part of Lilith's soul despite 00's body being an Adam-based Eva), so I'm guessing not just Lilith with Adam's spear, but perhaps the Eva themselves is what confused the Angels into thinking Adam was there. (In episode 08, I thought Gaghi attacked the ships due to both Adam-embryo and Eva-02.)

I agree with your thoughts, by the way.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

I think most if not all the Angels' actions can be explained by assuming they were after another SoL or SoL's body in order to complete the abortive Second Impact and rewrite life on Earth to support ADOs. As mentioned above, both the Adam Embryo, Lilith's body and perhaps even the Evangelion's themselves may have been the core ingredient the Angel's needed to begin this process.

While they do move as the plot dictates, I tend to think that each Angel is ultimately trying to initiate Third Impact—the series maguffin—as otherwise their escapades are rather pointless.

[SaltyJoe]

I was merely pondering whether that's a plotted, conscious action on their part, or more like an instinct driven mechanism. But that's a tangent from the thread's subject.

[AuraTwilight]

In the DC of #23, there's some definite GNR stuff going on when Overfiend Angel gets sucked into Unit 00, which would have been made from Adam, so logically it would seem something bad was happening with the Angel interacting with Rei/Lilith that was interrupted by the kaboom.

I'm pretty sure that scene was just symbolic of Rei's soul being reunified, and that there was no literal transformation taking place.

Hmm, it seems that the main school of thought is that the Angels wanted to cause Third Impact to wipe out humanity: that is, they were consciously planning to kill us all. but what if their desire to reunite with Adam was more of a simple, instinctive drive to return to mommy, that would simply result in causing Third Impact?

Well, if Adam is revived, she needs to destroy the Lilin so she can inherit the planet, regardless of her children conscious intent, right?

Also wasn't it mentioned in one of the supplemental sources that Lilith was skewered with Adam's lance? Maybe this made her give off, uhm, more "Adam"-y signals (yeah, i'm reaching for straws)?

I'm not sure the Lances give off any specific aura, since they seem perfectly interchangeable. More likely, Adam and Lilith both give off "Seed of Life" signals, and since the two were never supposed to be on the same planet, the Angels don't have the tools to tell one from another.

I do not believe the Angels necessarily had any deeper agenda or goals beyond "find Mommy."

[Reichu]

Just as food for thought, and to make things even more confusing, here's something from an NGE2 scene I haven't finished translating:

GENDO:
Adam ate the Fruit of Life, giving the Angels eternal life and power.
Lilith ate the Fruit of Knowledge, giving humans knowledge and death.
We received only knowledge, death, and proliferation.
People pursue eternal life without refrain... but Angels also seek out Lilith in similar pursuit of the Fruit of Knowledge.

(Or was that too obvious?)

I also don't think this Adam/Lilith/Angels' Motivations thing will ever make sense -- so take the ideas you like, and make it make sense to you!

I'm a bit partial to the fanwank that the Angels are universally prompted to head for the only remaining "Egg": as a huge object that neutrinos can't pass through, Lilith's Egg would be the most obvious common point of reference (or what have you) for newly-hatched, orphaned god-children seeking purpose and security in a hostile world. Perhaps they have a feeling that they'll find something there that they seek -- whether a progenitor to reclaim, imposters to destroy/utilize/ignore, or long-lost kin heading for the same place (curse staggered hatching times!).

[wonderluster]

I wonder what the angel would do if it made it to Dogma


Angel: "Well, shit."

[Ornette]

I wonder what the angel would do if it made it to Dogma


Angel: "Well, shit."

You mean like in episode 24?

[planet news]

Just kill yourself.

[ran1]

You mean like in episode 24?

I doubt any of the angels would have acted like Kaworu, though.
Arael or Armisael's reactions/next moves would have been particularly interesting to see, had they made it that far.

I'm a bit partial to the fanwank that the Angels are universally prompted to head for the only remaining "Egg": as a huge object that neutrinos can't pass through, Lilith's Egg would be the most obvious common point of reference (or what have you) for newly-hatched, orphaned god-children seeking purpose and security in a hostile world. Perhaps they have a feeling that they'll find something there that they seek -- whether a progenitor to reclaim, imposters to destroy/utilize/ignore, or long-lost kin heading for the same place (curse staggered hatching times!).

A bit of curiosity on my part: do you think the emboldened text would be a more intellectual or instinctual response on the part of the angels? I would think that this would definitely have some consequence if the angels thought in terms of kinsmanship.

Just kill yourself.

butthurt response, bro.

[wonderluster]

Yeah but that was the Q-Tip, he had INTELLIGENCE and was like , hell just get it over with. Im talkin bout if somebody like Zeruel or Sachiel got in there

[Sachi]

Yeah but that was the Q-Tip, he had INTELLIGENCE and was like , hell just get it over with. Im talkin bout if somebody like Zeruel or Sachiel got in there

They probably would not have even recognized the difference until they tried fusing with it or whatnot.

[Reichu]

Arael or Armisael's reactions/next moves would have been particularly interesting to see, had they made it that far.

I wonder if they were really planning to? Most of the Angels seemed to be as guilty of making things up as they went along as the scriptwriters.

A bit of curiosity on my part: do you think the emboldened text would be a more intellectual or instinctual response on the part of the angels?

I'm honestly not sure. There are certain things about the Angels that totally evade the usual concepts of instinct and intellect. (The whole "mutate into something totally WTF before hatching" deal, for example.)

I would think that this would definitely have some consequence if the angels thought in terms of kinsmanship.

It's really impossible to say if they do, since their sequential appearances in the show (the reason for which is totally unexplained -- if they all got souls at the same time, why do they hatch in a staggered sequence...?) combined with Nerv's systematic genocide mission eliminates the possibility of any two Angels (excepting maybe Israfel) ever meeting one another, save in death.

[AuraTwilight]

Yeah but that was the Q-Tip, he had INTELLIGENCE and was like , hell just get it over with. Im talkin bout if somebody like Zeruel or Sachiel got in there

All Angels have intelligence. Kaworu is only different in that he can speak to Lilin without needing to start up telepathy. This does not mean the other Angels are less intelligent.

[Adam]

It can be assumed that Kaworu couldn't do anything with Lilith, so he gave up.

I don't have the Manga here with me, but I think after Kaworu has been crushed, Fuyutsuki and Gendo talk about how even if Tabris had merged with Lilith, the fusion/third impact/whatever would have been imperfect/insufficient, as one important thing was missing --> Rei/Lilith's soul.

[Eva Yojimbo]

I think the big mistake most make when attempting to interpret The Angels' intentions is missing one of the major thematic statements Anno makes through the Angels and that's regarding the subversion of what we initially suspect they are. IOW, at first they appear to be these hulking, merciless beings out to destroy us and we have to defend ourselves from them. But as the series goes on they become more and more abstract, their actions more diverse and volatile, and they even seem to reach out to the Evas for no other reason than they're lonely. Yes, it's very easy to write all of this off as convenient plot devices; they certainly are that. But like most things in NGE the plot device makes sense in the context of the series.

What I'm trying to get to is the idea that it seems impossible to pigeonhole the Angels, just like it's impossible to pigeonhole humans. What can we say about humans that applies to everyone beyond the most basic of things? And humans don't have the god-like, shape-shifting individuality that the Angels represent. So it's always struck me as entirely sensible that the Angels are these fully individualized gods unto themselves and thus have a range of personality types and sets of instincts depending on what form they take. Some seem out to return to their mother and perhaps mistake Lilith for Adam. Others seem out to get revenge on the humans for killing their siblings. Others seem out to make contact with the Evas because they're lonely and want to understand.

[ran1]

^ Best explaination I've heard thus far.

[Reichu]

Ah, brings a tear to me eye when Jimbo channels me... Like old times! (...Maybe?)

Now for completeness (oh yes, that again!) you just have to account for the whole "consistently zeroing in on the Hakone region" thing, which "the Angels are individuals with varying motivations, etc." doesn't really cover.

I don't have the Manga here with me, but I think after Kaworu has been crushed, Fuyutsuki and Gendo talk about how even if Tabris had merged with Lilith, the fusion/third impact/whatever would have been imperfect/insufficient, as one important thing was missing --> Rei/Lilith's soul.

Going by NGE2, whenever an Angel is just about to fuse into Lilith, Rei always magically appears out of nowhere to join the festivities. Always. (Even if Rei had suffered the sort of fate in battle that normally results in a new clone being sent out in three days, i.e., died.) I'm not sure how seriously I take the inevitability of that outcome... but I found it amusing enough to mention.

(Actual translation with pictures will be coming soon enough.)

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

What I'm trying to get to is the idea that it seems impossible to pigeonhole the Angels, just like it's impossible to pigeonhole humans.

While I agree with the entirety of your post—and would indeed extend it to include the innovations in the Angels and Nerv's responses to them—I still tend to think that despite their individualities, the Angels are all still after the same goal of Third Impact. This trope even extends to the "final" angel, Man, with Gendo and Seele also seeking to achieve this outcome.

Essentially, as Reichu mentions, despite what they do once they arrive, all the Angel's eventually find themselves in or around Tokyo-3 and the Hakone geofront. I think we really have to take this into account when considering their motivations.

[Eva Yojimbo]

Ah, brings a tear to me eye when Jimbo channels me... Like old times! (...Maybe?)

Haha! Yes, definitely like old times. Though the channeling was unintentional...

you just have to account for the whole "consistently zeroing in on the Hakone region" thing, which "the Angels are individuals with varying motivations, etc." doesn't really cover.

Lilith's there, the Evas are there, The Angels are all like "I sense mama maybe and siblings... lolz, I goes there now." This could very well be one of the very basic things they all share; that instinct to return to the mother or to reach out to others for companionship.

I still tend to think that despite their individualities, the Angels are all still after the same goal of Third Impact.

I don't know if it was an ultimate goal of achieving 3I more than it was a very basic drive to return to the mother; the source of life and all that good stuff. That would be one important shared link that Lilim and Angels share.