Breaking Shinji: part of the scenario?
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Breaking Shinji: part of the scenario?
After seeing EoE, i have doubts about this issue. There is a moment in the movie, right after Lilith/GNR rises from the Geofront and meets EVA-01, in which the SEELE council says something like: "through the destruction of EVA-01 pilot's conscience, mankind will complete its evolution" (sorry, don't have english sub/dub; in the script's translation, they say: "Evangelion Unit 01's pilot... Complement humankind with your imperfect ego")
The question is: Shinji's downward spiral during the second half of the series is solely for dramatic purposes, or is it a required step in SEELE's way towards Third Impact? Could be that all the bad things that happen to Shinji were planned by SEELE in order to break him down?
The question is: Shinji's downward spiral during the second half of the series is solely for dramatic purposes, or is it a required step in SEELE's way towards Third Impact? Could be that all the bad things that happen to Shinji were planned by SEELE in order to break him down?
Last edited by Taumiel on Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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It's an interesting idea to toy around with (I have myself), but one that ultimately seems doomed to failure considering they were going to KILL HIM when the special forces raided NERV. However, once he got into Sho and Sho became their plan they pretty much needed his mental breakdown to bring on 3I/Instrumentality. All of this really makes you wonder what would've happen if they had just gotten Sho without Shinji...
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The JSSDF forces assaulted NERV because SEELE decided that Gendo was going to betray them. As their attempt to gain control of NERV's facilities by means of the MAGI hacking attack had already failed, they needed another way to secure the EVAs.
In order to get the Japanese government to do so, they tricked them into thinking that NERV was going to initiate Third Impact inmediately. In the movie, there is a scene at Japan's prime minister office that adresses this subject.
I don't think that SEELE had any control over the assault, or that they issued the order to kill the EVA pilots; I think it was the JSSDF's command who decided to eliminate them, because they knew a single Evangelion could turn the tide of the battle - as it happened when Asuka woke up.
Indeed, had the JSSDF's forces succeeded in killing Shinji, that would have hindered SEELE in reaching its goal, because they wouldn't have been able to celebrate the Red Earth ceremony as planned.
In order to get the Japanese government to do so, they tricked them into thinking that NERV was going to initiate Third Impact inmediately. In the movie, there is a scene at Japan's prime minister office that adresses this subject.
I don't think that SEELE had any control over the assault, or that they issued the order to kill the EVA pilots; I think it was the JSSDF's command who decided to eliminate them, because they knew a single Evangelion could turn the tide of the battle - as it happened when Asuka woke up.
Indeed, had the JSSDF's forces succeeded in killing Shinji, that would have hindered SEELE in reaching its goal, because they wouldn't have been able to celebrate the Red Earth ceremony as planned.
Last edited by Taumiel on Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SEELE wanted the pilots dead. They issued the order for immediate execution upon contact, and that's why Misato went crazy and dragged Shinji to his Eva & ordered Asuka into Unit-02. It was initially to protect them. I don't know how SEELE had planned on initiating 3I/Instrumentality without Shinji, since I highly doubt Unit-01 would have done a damn thing without her son.
I think the mental breakdown was probably more consistent with Gendo's scenario, but even that's a huge leap into conjecture. It seemed to me that a completely broken individual would be more likely to accept some kind of bliss-state... though, now that I think about it, that sounds more along the lines of SEELE's scenario than Gendo's (whose scenario I had always assumed to include the Eva-as-arc idea: temporary Instrumentality, permanent union with his wife, everybody else comes back to reality). Shinji's breakdown would be counterproductive in that regard. Hmm...
I suppose it could be a combination of both. SEELE had to know that the pilots were going to be really fucked up by the end of the angels, and if the Scrolls were even remotely accurate, they'd at least have had a vague idea of what the last three or four angels would do. Rei's existence threw a monkey wrench into their design as well, and their subsequent inquiry into the matter filtered down to affecting Shinji rather profoundly.
But I suppose that's all moot when SEELE issues to termination order in EoE. Maybe they just wanted him dead, and that's all there is to it. I dunno.
EDIT
I doubt that. An order as serious as killing the pilots could only come from the very top, not to mention that an invasion of NERV HQ had the potential to be disastrous for SEELE also, considering the sensitive nature of Terminal Dogma. I just find it hard to believe that SEELE wouldn't have some kind of direct involvement with the plan.
I think the mental breakdown was probably more consistent with Gendo's scenario, but even that's a huge leap into conjecture. It seemed to me that a completely broken individual would be more likely to accept some kind of bliss-state... though, now that I think about it, that sounds more along the lines of SEELE's scenario than Gendo's (whose scenario I had always assumed to include the Eva-as-arc idea: temporary Instrumentality, permanent union with his wife, everybody else comes back to reality). Shinji's breakdown would be counterproductive in that regard. Hmm...
I suppose it could be a combination of both. SEELE had to know that the pilots were going to be really fucked up by the end of the angels, and if the Scrolls were even remotely accurate, they'd at least have had a vague idea of what the last three or four angels would do. Rei's existence threw a monkey wrench into their design as well, and their subsequent inquiry into the matter filtered down to affecting Shinji rather profoundly.
But I suppose that's all moot when SEELE issues to termination order in EoE. Maybe they just wanted him dead, and that's all there is to it. I dunno.
EDIT
Taumiel wrote:I don't think that SEELE had any control over the assault, or that they issued the order to kill the EVA pilots; I think it was the JSSDF's command who decided to eliminate them, because they knew a single Evangelion could turn the tide of the battle - as it happened when Asuka woke up.
I doubt that. An order as serious as killing the pilots could only come from the very top, not to mention that an invasion of NERV HQ had the potential to be disastrous for SEELE also, considering the sensitive nature of Terminal Dogma. I just find it hard to believe that SEELE wouldn't have some kind of direct involvement with the plan.
Is there evidence of SEELE ordering the pilots' termination in the movie? I'll check it out...
EDIT
It's not clear who does issue that order. It happens moments before the soldiers find Shinji.
EDIT
http://www.evaotaku.com/html/air.html wrote:JSSDF officer (female):
Eva pilots are to be terminated on sight.
Unconditional execution of non-combatants also authorized.
It's not clear who does issue that order. It happens moments before the soldiers find Shinji.
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I got the impression the order to kill the pilots came from the Minister of Japan, not SEELE, but that's just me...
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Seele isn't stupid. If they needed the pilots, they would have told the Prime Minister and the JSSDF that it was vital to preserve them. I just can't imagine Keel and the gang saying "What do you mean you killed the pilots??!!". Seele orignially wanted them dead. Besides, this isn't the only instance in this seqence that they acted this way. Not only did they try to kill the pilots, and then act like Shinji was part of their plans all along, they also bitched since Ep. 22 that Gendo had thrown away the Spear of Longinus, and then acted like its return was part of their plans all along. They remind me of Pee Wee Herman falling off his bike and then saying "I meant to do that."
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Aaa The lovely ambiguities on EoE that make for such endless debate.
Ok It's been a while but lets see if I can still dance this dance.
" through the destruction of EVA-01 pilot's conscience, mankind will complete its evolution "
Could this mean the MP Eva's crucifiction of Unit one ( and Shinji in the plug ) that seemed to set something off that did break the kids mind like an egg on the side walk.
Now it should be pointed out that Rei was the swing vote in all of this. Gendo at least didn't seem to care what was going on with Unit 1 and that joining Adam with Rei " could merge all souls into one and take me to my yui's side " or whatever.
So all this together makes me think Unit 01 would work for Seeles plans and they took the shot. Rei just derailed things by taking Adam from Gendo and going to Shinji.
So In short no Gendos piss poor parenting skills where not a part of the plan but they didn't help matters either.
Ok It's been a while but lets see if I can still dance this dance.
" through the destruction of EVA-01 pilot's conscience, mankind will complete its evolution "
Could this mean the MP Eva's crucifiction of Unit one ( and Shinji in the plug ) that seemed to set something off that did break the kids mind like an egg on the side walk.
Now it should be pointed out that Rei was the swing vote in all of this. Gendo at least didn't seem to care what was going on with Unit 1 and that joining Adam with Rei " could merge all souls into one and take me to my yui's side " or whatever.
So all this together makes me think Unit 01 would work for Seeles plans and they took the shot. Rei just derailed things by taking Adam from Gendo and going to Shinji.
So In short no Gendos piss poor parenting skills where not a part of the plan but they didn't help matters either.
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This.thewayneiac wrote:Seele isn't stupid. If they needed the pilots, they would have told the Prime Minister and the JSSDF that it was vital to preserve them. I just can't imagine Keel and the gang saying "What do you mean you killed the pilots??!!". Seele orignially wanted them dead.
thewayneiac wrote:They remind me of Pee Wee Herman falling off his bike and then saying "I meant to do that."
Gendo & Fuyutsuki even point this out at the beginning of EoE:
It's hardly a stretch of imagination to assume that they're just going along with their typical revisionism with the whole "Pilot's ego has been destroyed! Aha! Exactly like we predicted!"http://www.evaotaku.com/html/air.html wrote:SEELE 01 (Keel):
The promised time has come.
With the Lance of Longinus now lost, complementation using Lilith is impossible.
Our only hope is to proceed with EVA-01, Lilith's sole clone.
Gendo:
While different from SEELE's scenario...
Fuyutsuki:
Humans have existed to create Eva. (ambiguous)
Gendo:
Humans should evolve into a new world. That is the purpose of the Eva series.
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i'm with merridian on this one-- of course they would say it had all gone "according to the scenario" no matter what happened.
i always got the feeling that they didn't really need Shinji. they didn't particularly care whose soul was in unit 01 or what that person's intentions were (unlike ourselves, who tend to think of unit 01 as "yui" and associate every one of unit 01's actions to the bond yui has with Shinji). all they cared was that unit 01 was "complete" and that it could "awaken"-- they were expecting it wouldn't need Shinji to do so (which it didn't, but they overlooked the fact that yui had a plan of her own and would would want Shinji to be part of the process). hence them not freaking out that the JSSDF was ordered to kill the pilots on sight.
but then when they figured out that crap, unit 01 did put Shinji in the middle of it all anyway, well, they needed him to break down so that there wouldn't even be the remote chance of him suddenly deciding to go heroic and stopping instrumentality altogether, therefore screwing up all their plans. and, in order to make their useless chanting more dramatic, and so as to not lose face (...among each other? nobody was listening. can we take that as breaking the fourth wall?) they added the whole "tear down the pilot's ego barrier" bit, declaring that it had all been part of the scenario all along.
i always got the feeling that they didn't really need Shinji. they didn't particularly care whose soul was in unit 01 or what that person's intentions were (unlike ourselves, who tend to think of unit 01 as "yui" and associate every one of unit 01's actions to the bond yui has with Shinji). all they cared was that unit 01 was "complete" and that it could "awaken"-- they were expecting it wouldn't need Shinji to do so (which it didn't, but they overlooked the fact that yui had a plan of her own and would would want Shinji to be part of the process). hence them not freaking out that the JSSDF was ordered to kill the pilots on sight.
but then when they figured out that crap, unit 01 did put Shinji in the middle of it all anyway, well, they needed him to break down so that there wouldn't even be the remote chance of him suddenly deciding to go heroic and stopping instrumentality altogether, therefore screwing up all their plans. and, in order to make their useless chanting more dramatic, and so as to not lose face (...among each other? nobody was listening. can we take that as breaking the fourth wall?) they added the whole "tear down the pilot's ego barrier" bit, declaring that it had all been part of the scenario all along.
So SEELE wasn't following some kind of arcane ritual, but having a nice moment of collective megalomaniacal gloating? I guess they got a little carried away in the heat of the moment...
Don't know why but, while watching the series, I had this feeling that SEELE had nearly everything that happened under control. Sometimes it seems to me they even could somehow control the angels' appearances!
I still don't understand the point of blabbering about the pilot's ego destruction as the key to Instrumentality - after ordering to have him killed. Could they be referring to Yui? The soul trapped inside an EVA is sometimes also known as its pilot.
EDIT: finally I understand! Carla's last paragraph couldn't explain it better (kudos to you ). Of course, the pilot's breakdown is the key to Instrumentality, because his free will, his chance to act for himself and derail their plans, is the last obstacle to overcome! They are not blabbering, but stating the obvious.
And, of course, the best way of destroynig the pilot's ego would be shooting him on the head before he reached his EVA. In the end, they needed Shinji destroyed, either physically or psychologically.
But the question keeps unanswered: did SEELE plan Shinji's breakdown, as a safeguard just in case they couldn't eliminate him before Third Impact?
Don't know why but, while watching the series, I had this feeling that SEELE had nearly everything that happened under control. Sometimes it seems to me they even could somehow control the angels' appearances!
I still don't understand the point of blabbering about the pilot's ego destruction as the key to Instrumentality - after ordering to have him killed. Could they be referring to Yui? The soul trapped inside an EVA is sometimes also known as its pilot.
EDIT: finally I understand! Carla's last paragraph couldn't explain it better (kudos to you ). Of course, the pilot's breakdown is the key to Instrumentality, because his free will, his chance to act for himself and derail their plans, is the last obstacle to overcome! They are not blabbering, but stating the obvious.
And, of course, the best way of destroynig the pilot's ego would be shooting him on the head before he reached his EVA. In the end, they needed Shinji destroyed, either physically or psychologically.
But the question keeps unanswered: did SEELE plan Shinji's breakdown, as a safeguard just in case they couldn't eliminate him before Third Impact?
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...or maybe they don't have just one straight-line scenario, but rather a large branching tree of if/then statements that all lead back to the desired conclusion.
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NemZ wrote:...or maybe they don't have just one straight-line scenario, but rather a large branching tree of if/then statements that all lead back to the desired conclusion.
It'd make for a hell of a PowerPoint presentation, that's for sure.
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I believe they did it to get access to the core easier and to get him to "follow" their commends.
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