Ikari Gendou: The Motives Behind the Man Behind the Motives

[DatDude]

EoE I believe mentions other people could come back if Shinji could. Not to say that EVERY one coould come back just people that could meet the imagin your self with in your own heart bit.

[Reichu]

EoE I believe mentions other people could come back if Shinji could. Not to say that EVERY one coould come back just people that could meet the imagin your self with in your own heart bit.

This is because Shinji tells Rei to bring A.T. Fields back.

(Evidence that more than an ATF is required to maintain physical form, since people have to CHOSE to reembody, but that's beside the point.)

[DatDude]

I'll leave the Yui unit one stuff for another thread don't want to get off track.

Its strange how so many people seem to thing gendo's motives were altruistic. If deep down all he was after was to get man kind through instrumentality and get to be with yui again wouldn't he have treated his son better?

You can not tell me that a woman like Yui or any woman for that matter would care truly for some one that mistreated their child. You can argue human weakness all you want but having seen instances of parents mistreating children in my own life I can tell you that all the abuser thinks about is them selves.

Show me an instance in EVA were gendo shows any kindness at all to anyone that’s not 100% vital to his plan, after Yui died.

I do tend to think that before yuis was trapped in the eva yes gendos plans may have been closer to the throeys put down here, but loss and grief can change people greatly.

If gendo had treated Rei better or at least tried to connect with his son I'd be more inclined to agree with you folks. It's the lack of these things that make gendo seem unintrested in anything other then his goals, and make me think they were self centered. I've tryed to look deeper at his character a lot recently and I can understand the mans weakness in shutting people out, but that weakness does not excuse his actions.

[Reichu]

Gendo:
I've been waiting for this moment for so long... To finally be with you again, Yui. When I'm with Shinji, I only hurt him. So, it's better that I do nothing.

Yui:
So, you were afraid of Shinji.

Gendo:
I don't believe that I can be loved by others... I'm not worthy of love.

Kaworu:
You're just running away. You simply reject the world before you get hurt.

Yui:
Afraid of the shapeless, invisible barriers that separate people...

Rei:
You just closed your heart to others.

Gendo:
So, this is my retribution. Forgive me... Shinji.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

The argument is over wheither the "rules" so to speak would be diffrent with Gendo incharge.

Yes I think that DatDude is right on this point. In a sense, this thread is about "the rules" of Third Impact, and how the factions attempted to manipulate them. I do think that things would have been different if Gendou rather than Shinji was in control of Third impact.

Third Impact's complicated. That's a given. However it appears that SEELE's orginal version required the Lance of Longinus, and by using the Lance earlier(eps 22), Gendou appears to have forced them into using Unit One. From EoE(Air).

Keel:
The promised time has come.
With the Lance of Longinus now lost, complementation using Lilith is impossible.
Our only hope is to proceed with EVA-01, Lilith's sole clone.

It would also seem that this wasn't a spur of the moment decision by Gendou. It seems he always intended to remove the Lance from the equation. Fuyutsuki seems to have been aware of this as well. From eps 22:

Fuyutsuki : Ikari, I think it is too early to use that.
Gendou : The committee has started the mass production
of the Eva series. This is a chance, Fuyutsuki.

Was Gendou's plan to turn everyone into Tang? Not nessessarily. An important point I think, is that complementation(Is this what the tanging was called?) did not occur immediately. In EoE Fuyutsuki states:

Fuyutsuki:
Having obtained them both, EVA-01 has become like a God.
And now it has been restored to the propagule of souls... the Tree of Life.
Will it become the Ark to save humankind from the nothingness of Third Impact?
Or the demon that destroys us all?
Our future lies in the hands of Ikari's son.

Shinji was in full control of Third Impact.(If perhaps not in control of himself) This I feel is indisputable. Shinji only chose to begin complementation after Asuka's rejection of him. Only after he strangles her does complementation begin in earnest. Ironically, her rejection of him during complementation as well is what causes him to call a halt to the proceedings.

At any rate, my point is that Shinji had to choose complementation. It may not have followed inevitably from third impact. And so if Gendou had been in control of Third Impact, perhaps complementation would be on his terms. Although, Gendou did state merge all soles into one to Rei before merging with her. Maybe he did want complementation to begin, but I think regardless, his plan was to have complementation end in the way that it eventually did.(i.e. AT fields were reinstated)

As for his staying with Yui, there are really two options for him. One, having stopped complementation he remains forever with Yui in Unit One. There doesn't seem to be anything preventing this from happenning. Everyone can return, Gendou and Yui just don't.

His second option of course, is to initiate complementation, halt it, and then return, along with Yui.

[Reichu]

His second option of course, is to initiate complementation, halt it, and then return, along with Yui.

If you can't get your wife out of the Eva, might as well join her inside it.

Easier ways to do this than initiating 3I, but, as has been said... "If it's gonna happen anyway, I might as well do it my way."

[DatDude]

But it didn't need to happen at all, and only did becuase a broken 14 yearold boy wished "that every one would just die." Mabe you people are right that 3I didn't have to be that way for gendo, but the " merge all soles into one " line seems to suggest that it was a part of it at least.

Even if you are I don't see gendo as one that thinks of other much if at all. Im convince he wanted Yui back for his own sake not because it would make her happy as well. Im not convinced even if he had the power to do as you say that he'd bother to do it.

[Reichu]

But it didn't need to happen at all, and only did becuase a broken 14 yearold boy wished "that every one would just die."

If Shinji (or Gendo, for that matter) hadn't gotten involved, Seele would have carried out their original scenario. And in that case, A.T. Fields would NEVER have come back.

[DatDude]

We have no proof that gendo would have brought anyone back either.

The problem with this end of the debate is we have noting in the anime that tells us what each side will do with control of 3I. We know what Seele does NOT want to do ride thigs out in eva. We know Gendo wants Yui back and merging all soles is part of that, but nothing of his intentions for later.

The only hit we have is from Rei who is convined that Gendo will abandon her when he's done with her.

The sick part is she also seemed to long to be nothing. That scene alone makes me doubt your " gendo will send every one back " theory, because he raised Rei, and for her to have thoughs like that he must have been a real uncaring bastard for to long for nothingness.

[Reichu]

So what do you think Gendo's intentions were before Yui's "accident"? The same as Seele's?

[DatDude]

The Instrumentality project wasn't even proposed to Seele by gendo until after Yui's death/accident/whatever so I always gussed it was just to build the eva's and beat the angels.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

The Instrumentality project wasn't even proposed to Seele by gendo until after Yui's death/accident/whatever so I always gussed it was just to build the eva's and beat the angels.

That's not certain. Remember Fuyutsuki's reaction when Gendo tells him that he's going ahead with the Instrumentality project.

Gendo : I've already made the proposal to Chairman Kihl.
Fuyutsuki : You're going to do it?
Gendo : Right. The way to become a god, which no one has achieved.
Gendo : The Human Instrumentality Project.

But It would that Instumentality was on the table beforehand. In the park scene,

Fuyutsuki : According to the scenario in Seele's secret Dead Sea
Scrolls, Third Impact will definitely occur in a little over
ten years.
Yui : Seele and Gehirn - organizations for preventing the final
tragedy.
Fuyutsuki : I support your intentions, not Seele's.

It would seem that Yui, Fuyutsuki knew about SEELE's plans for Instrumentality. It's safe to say Gendou knew as well. What's important about Fuyutsuki's reaction to Gendou proclaiming that he was going to OK the plan, is that Fuyutsuki may not have initially been privy to all of Yui and Gendou's plans. Consider his demeanour in the scene before Yui's accident. I don't think he knew what was going to happen, but I think Gendou did.

[DatDude]

That just implys that he's more loyal to Yui then Seele but their is no hint given their as to WHAT Seele's plans were at that point.

Mabe it was just to use EVA as a weapon of war? We don't know.

[thewayneiac]

We have no proof that gendo would have brought anyone back either.

The problem with this end of the debate is we have noting in the anime that tells us what each side will do with control of 3I. We know what Seele does NOT want to do is ride things out in eva. .

But why would they tell him they don't want to ride things out in EVA unless they had found out that that is what Gendo wants?

[DatDude]

Mabe they suspected he might want to because the wife he was obsessed with was merged with one.

Gendo's impact got derailed by Rei before it had a chance to start, but his command to her " merge all sole into one then take me to my Yui's side " implys nothing of were they'd meet.

If controling instrumentaly ment being in effect god then couldn't gendo have just said stop all the angels leave mankind the earth and take me to yui, or hell do the first part then get my wife out of unit one, give her a human body again and bring her to me?

It seem turning every one into cool aide was in gendos plan two.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

But why would they tell him they don't want to ride things out in EVA unless they had found out that that is what Gendo wants?

Another question might be when did they become privy to Gendou's plans. I don;t think they would have confided in him for so long if they though he was going to betray their hopes. It's clear from this scene that they do not approve of his version of third impact, nor he of theirs

Gendo: Death gives birth to nothing.
Keel: Then death is what you shall have.


P.S.
Is it Gendo or Gendou? I can't decide. (Though this is probobly going to lead to another splinter thread :roll: . I'm having trouble juggling all these)

[Dave]

Another question might be when did they become privy to Gendou's plans. I don;t think they would have confided in him for so long if they though he was going to betray their hopes. It's clear from this scene that they do not approve of his version of third impact, nor he of theirs.

Seele probably started to notice Gendou's dissention sometime between Unit 01's "awakening" and the loss of the lance. I'm sure Gendou's blatant and open attempt to dispose of the lance was the final nail in the coffin, although it took quite a while for Seee to act.
P.S.

Is it Gendo or Gendou? I can't decide. (Though this is probobly going to lead to another splinter thread :roll: . I'm having trouble juggling all these)

Either is fine.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Yes though they had become frustrated with him before that. In the begining of eps 15

Fuyutsuki: Second and Third Lake Ashinoko.
I don't want any more of them.
Yesterday, A complaint came from Chairman Keel,
directly to me.
He was very upset.
Towards the end he hinted at your dismissal.

Gendou: Adam is going well. As for the Eva project, we've begun
work on the Dummy Plug.
What are the old men of Seele complaining about?

Fuyutsuki: The most important, The Human Instrumentality Project, is behind schedule.

Also remember in eps 02 when "Mr Red", looking a little aghast, brings up the following

Mr Red: I heard you gave that toy to your son.

Mr Blue: Lives, time and money... How much will be spent by you and
your son before you are satisfied?

Maybe it's possible that SEELE was unaware of Yui's presence within Unit One?

[DatDude]

Ho im sure they knew about the realtionship between eva's, soles and pilots. Its the linch pin that makes the eva function.

Im sure Gendo would need to tell Seele just to set up a system to find viable women with children in the right age range to be useful.

If they wated for an accident or killed the women out right well that will be another splinter thread i'll make in a few days.

[Dave]

Maybe it's possible that SEELE was unaware of Yui's presence within Unit One?

I just don't see how this could be possible, seeing as how they were most probably keeping a close eye on Yui (which I now know thanks to Reichu's wonderful work ). It seems more likely that they believed it to actually be an accident, and never even imagined Yui would intentionally place her soul into Unit 01.

As to those quotes you presented, they seem to be simple management issues. I doubt Seele truly believed Gendou would attempt to undermine all their efforts, for wouldn't they than simply remove him? At that point in the game, removing Gendou would have been no problem at all.