Eligibility for HIP / Nature of Souls

[Noephon]

It's highly likely that this is a stupid question, but: Kaji died well before Third Impact (it seemed like about two weeks to me). But Guf collects all souls, not just those that were Tangified on 1 January 2016 specifically, and the Rei-tachi can do what I would term in mixed company 'some pretty effed-up things with spacetime.'

Is there any way to point one way or the other towards the possibility that Kaji was taken into Instrumentality? I can see arguments either way, but honestly I kind of doubt it myself.

[NemZ]

Anything is possible on that front, I guess.

Earth is gonna be damn crowded after 3I if everyone who ever lived is coming back though. Hmm... would this qualify as an addition to Mr. Tine's list of BAD END scenarios?

[tinmeigut]

Thanks to Yui, many people out there got a second chance. I'd really like to see Emily Bronte in that case, and ask her how on earth could she pen Wuthering Heights.

[Monk Ed]

Didn't a bunch of souls go with Eva-01 into space? My impression was that it's like Judgment Day, where all humans who ever lived resurrect and are judged-- except they're judged by themselves. The ones who want to rez in corporeal form can, but enough choose to stay with the "ark" that Eva-01 becomes that crowding isn't a problem.

I'd imagine those who died of lifespan issues, though, are out of luck.

[NemZ]

I don't recall yui taking the souls. I think most of them ended up floating in that bright red ring in the sky.

[Xard]

There's nothing indicating Instrumentality worked on other souls than those deceased about the time of Third Impact

Kaji may or may not fit in the deadline

[TemporalKnight]

There's nothing indicating Instrumentality worked on other souls than those deceased about the time of Third Impact

Kaji may or may not fit in the deadline

Well since it worked before 3I enough to collect Ritsuko I don't see why it couldn't go further back and collect Kaji too since Rei had dealings with him as well and knew (or at least will know after it all starts) that Shinji cared for him. Also seeing as how we see Rei 3 at the very beginning I don't see any explicit reason for her not to be able to collect whoever she wants whenever she wants.

[Xard]

Asuka and Ritsuko died on the same day at the very place. As did other casualties of NERV's clash with military. They won't count the same as your unlucky fellow dying in car crash year ago.

There's nothing indicating Instrumentality worked on other souls than those deceased about the time of Third Impact

Kaji may or may not fit in the deadline

Well since it worked before 3I enough to collect Ritsuko I don't see why it couldn't go further back and collect Kaji too since Rei had dealings with him as well and knew (or at least will know after it all starts) that Shinji cared for him. Also seeing as how we see Rei 3 at the very beginning I don't see any explicit reason for her not to be able to collect whoever she wants whenever she wants.

The thing is we don't know what happens to souls after they die. Sure they hang around for a while, but what happens then?

Anno isn't atheist exactly, he believes in the general Japanese form of spiritism.

Souls on the other hand have their material dimension to them. That added up with whole Rei/QM and Ep 20 dialogue deal in my opinion clearly meas Neon Genesis Evangelion is advocating/using Quantum Soul theory.

Reincarnation, passing to next universe (think of multiverse as one huge wheel), reaching some higher plane of existence (Plato's world of Ideas? ), slowly fading away... They and many others are possibilities, only models featuring God or such I wouldn't count in.

But there is not a single reason to presume some ancient roman could come back.

[Sailor Star Dust]

There was some theory of Reichu's (although it might have been for a fanfic of hers) that Yui brought all the souls of the Angels into space with her considering she might have become the next seed of life. While I like the idea of Yui becoming a SOL like Adam and Lilith (there seems to be some evidence in EoE for this at any rate), there's nothing really to back up Yui taking any souls along with her.

With Kaji, he was in both endings of Eva. We see him in Pre-Instrumentality during both takes on the Misato/Kaji college days boinking flashbacks (EoTV's take going into why Misato did that/what she's looking for, while in EoE that actual act of sex is being commented on instead), as well as hear him speak a few times in EoTV (as well as at least once or twice in EoE I think).

[AuraTwilight]

I figured that Quantum Rei's soul collecting would probably extend to both bookends.

[Noephon]

Anno isn't atheist exactly, he believes in the general Japanese form of spiritism.

FUN FACT: Kami have cores.

[Gamer_2k4]

What IS a soul, in NGE terms? As far as I can tell, it's not that thing that goes to some afterlife when a person dies. It's more of a manifestation of someone's personality, effectively separating them from others as an individual.

On the other hand, the soul DOES appear to exist independently of the body. Somehow Rei's soul was collected each time she died. All of the pilots' mothers' souls were implanted into Evas. So while there's not a special "soul place" like heaven or hell, they still are residual and they still retain someone's personality, whether or not that person is still alive. That's how reincarnation works, right?

Now, since souls retain personality and transcend physical form, then instrumentality must take all of those souls into account. I don't think that they degrade in any way for not being with a body. If that were true, and reincarnation IS the model used, then each subsequent generation would seem more and more like mindless drones, as their personalities wear away.

Despite what Xard said, there is plenty of reason to believe that an ancient Roman's soul would be a part of instrumentality. It may not be unique to his body, but it still exists. Instrumentality would have no concept of time. It wouldn't reject old souls and accept new ones. Souls are souls, and personalities are personalities. All instrumentality does is break up the soul boundaries.

Long story short, Kaji (or at least, his personality) WOULD be a part of instrumentality.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Long story short, Kaji (or at least, his soul) WOULD be a part of instrumentality.

Fixed.

[TemporalKnight]

Exactly. How souls seem to work in NGE is that they stay in some form or another whether there is a living body or not. I think there is a possibility that every dead body has a dormant soul in NGE. The soul had no place to go unless it was harvested by metabiology people or collected later on by GNR for Instrumentality.

EDIT: I just realized that this conflicts with my earlier thought that GNR/Rei 3 can go to any time and place she wants to collect souls seeing as how if all the souls are in the same time she wouldn't really have to go BACK in time to gather some (like Rits) up. Oh well, now I have to try to reconcile these two things...

[Reichu]

What IS a soul, in NGE terms? ... It's more of a manifestation of someone's personality, effectively separating them from others as an individual.

It's more like the metaphysical side of a lifeform, and personality can be one aspect of this. Depends on whether or not a personality is cultivated through the life led by the individual. Some lifeforms aren't really going to have that on the platter, but they'll still have souls.

Now, since souls retain personality and transcend physical form, then instrumentality must take all of those souls into account. I don't think that they degrade in any way for not being with a body. If that were true, and reincarnation IS the model used, then each subsequent generation would seem more and more like mindless drones, as their personalities wear away.

I don't really see the logic here. Souls could be recycled like biomass without retaining individualistic elements like the last owner's personality. The next owner would simply re-cultivate these elements from scratch via the process of living. We start out with certain predispositions, but defined personalities and memories are gradually gained.

Despite what Xard said, there is plenty of reason to believe that an ancient Roman's soul would be a part of instrumentality. It may not be unique to his body, but it still exists.

"May not be unique to his body"?

There was some theory of Reichu's ... that Yui brought all the souls of the Angels into space with her considering she might have become the next seed of life. While I like the idea of Yui becoming a SOL like Adam and Lilith (there seems to be some evidence in EoE for this at any rate), there's nothing really to back up Yui taking any souls along with her.

Well, there's one scene in EoE you can interpret as GNK handing souls over to Eva-01, if you really want to. Not that this is really on topic or anything.

The Armisael weirdness in 23', at least, can possibly be interpreted as providing an indication that the Angels' souls have been hanging out since their deaths, thereby providing some minimum time frame for how long souls -- those of Angels, at the very least -- might remain intact without their bodies.

With Kaji, he was in both endings of Eva. We see him in Pre-Instrumentality during both takes on the Misato/Kaji college days boinking flashbacks .. as well as hear him speak ... once or twice ... I think).

Kaji's EoE appearance is purely in the form of flashbacks during P3II. He doesn't actually participate in any of the stuff that's going on, so it should be fairly safe to assume that he "isn't there". EoE's Instrumentality Proper doesn't get much coverage at all, unfortunately.

I don't recall yui taking the souls. I think most of them ended up floating in that bright red ring in the sky.

That's just from the blood that spurted out of GNR's neck. The souls themselves all descended to Earth.

[Gamer_2k4]

Now, since souls retain personality and transcend physical form, then instrumentality must take all of those souls into account. I don't think that they degrade in any way for not being with a body. If that were true, and reincarnation IS the model used, then each subsequent generation would seem more and more like mindless drones, as their personalities wear away.

I don't really see the logic here. Souls could be recycled like biomass without retaining individualistic elements like the last owner's personality. The next owner would simply re-cultivate these elements from scratch via the process of living. We start out with certain predispositions, but defined personalities and memories are gradually gained.

I'll be the first to admit that Rei didn't have the exact same personality in her second and third iterations (it's kind of hard to tell in the first). However, she must have retained her memories, as well as much of her personality; otherwise everyone not in the know would be trying to figure out why she had changed so much and how she got amnesia.

Despite what Xard said, there is plenty of reason to believe that an ancient Roman's soul would be a part of instrumentality. It may not be unique to his body, but it still exists.

"May not be unique to his body"?

Well, I was on the reincarnation tangent there. The idea was that his soul was in someone else's body initially, and would show up again in yet another person's body after he died.

[Reichu]

I'll be the first to admit that Rei didn't have the exact same personality in her second and third iterations (it's kind of hard to tell in the first).

I wasn't really thinking about Rei when I typed that.

Well, I was on the reincarnation tangent there. The idea was that his soul was in someone else's body initially, and would show up again in yet another person's body after he died.

In that case, it's not particularly useful to speak of the soul as being that of an ancient Roman, due to the fact that it has since moved on many times over and may now be a Tasmanian lawyer or a housewife in Azerbaijan.

[NemZ]

Is there any reason to think that souls without bodies don't erode over time?

I don't believe there is any reason to expect people who aren't very recently dead to still be around for 3I. Kaji in EOE is just there in Misato's memories, and in EOTV that was likely just the Kaji in Shinji's mind, not the real one.

If Kaji were still floating around, Shinji should have run into him in a more concrete form when the kid was all 'I see (recently) dead people" in P3II.

[Mr. Tines]

would this qualify as an addition to Mr. Tines' list of BAD END scenarios?

That'd be its exact opposite.

[NemZ]

That'd be its exact opposite.

Everyone who ever lived all comes back to life at once on a world that surely can't support them with it's recently devastated ecosystem... is a GOOD END?