Angel origins and suchlike

[Zaque]

But since their goal is to destroy the Angels, why MAKE THEM AT ALL?

Hmm...

A-01 doesn't mean what you think it means. Sachiel was listed as A-03 by the MAGI.

I suppose this ^

This to me points kinda to the scenario that they did, and had them all accounted for and numbered. This would also support the idea that the Angels were Adam chunks rather than Adam offspring... Also, what about this [ep24: MAN B "We will not rely on the powers of Adam or the Angels."] Why would Seele "rely" on the Angels if they are out to destroy them? I'm thinking creation followed by manipulation here...

[Anonymous_Evafan]

Why? Adam was the first Angel (A-01), Sachiel was the third (A-03). It doesn't mean anything more than they are the first and third Angel encountered respectively.

Why would Seele "rely" on the Angels if they are out to destroy them?

Subtext there is they put their hope in Kaworu's hands and he stabbed them in the back. They're full of shit anyways because the Evas are clones of Adam...

[Zaque]

Scratch Seele created Angels idea. I wish someone brought this up sooner... (Thanks AuraTwilight) [ep23 MAN D "That leaves only one Angel described in Seele's Dead Sea Scrolls."] after discussing the defeat of the other ones.
so...

catapult

Sounds reasonable for angels getting to their destinations. Then I'm also guessing that the FAR sent the Angels along with Adam to populate Earth. Perhaps that picture being read was copied/taken from the SDSS or something.

[V]

Adam created the Angels

but the problem is that the story changed a bit from the original outline, i.e. "Evangelion Proposal"

the original idea was that the FAR had actually been to Earth, and buried Angels all over the place, including the 12 powerful ones on the Moon

the race would be to find the abandoned FAR research base to figure out how to stop them

but this was REALLY early in conception; it does confirm that "godlike progenitor aliens creating the Angels" was in the story since the very beginning, but the whole Lilith/Adam dichotomy which is clear even from just watching End of Evangelion, apparently wasn't developed yet

so in the FINAL version, the FAR *never* came to Earth; they couldn't, otherwise how could 2 Seeds "accidentally" land on the same planet?

it can't be that the Katsuragi Expedition say, saw embryonic Angels in hibernation in the Antarctic and simply counted them, because they speak of them being "described in the Dead Sea Scrolls" which were actually a manual written by the FAR basically along the lines of:

"hi there, if you are reading this, you are a Lilith-based life form that has gained sentience and thus the wherewithal to translate this manual. Congratulations. Unfortunately, an Adam-type Seed has also landed on your planet. The Spear of Longinus we sent along with it should have turned it off. In the event that even the Spear has failed, you are now being attacked by Adam-based life, the Angels. Adam is capable of making the following 15 Angels....This is a bad thing: under no circumstances should Lilith-based and Adam-based life mix; this would create a god-like being. Please don't try to do that. Anyway, to stop Adam, you have to get the Spear of Longinus (which must be damaged) functional again, so here's a technical manual on how it works and how Seeds of Life function...."

something along those lines

[AyrYntake]

I may be wrong, but didn't the notion of the FAR originate from the PS2 game? I'm slightly against the idea of a First Ancestral Race since all it does is imply an infinitum et absurdum...I mean, if Adam and Lilith were created by the FAR then where did the FAR themselves come from?

[Mr. Tines]

I may be wrong, but didn't the notion of the FAR originate from the PS2 game?

They are implicit in

FUYUTSUKI:
What is this?

IKARI (OFF):
A cavern left behind by someone, who was not us.
Though eighty-nine percent of it is buried.

where did the FAR themselves come from?

As per the standard SF trope, the good ancestral race arose by slow natural process, but decided that being alone in the cosmos was not a good thing.

[AyrYntake]

Excuse me if this sounds selfish, but I don't like that idea. I mean, it inserts a lot of cheese into Eva.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

ANNOUNCEMENT:
Central Dogma is currently locked down.
Please use Route 22 as a detour.

KAWORU:
You're the First Child, aren't you?
Rei Ayanami...
You're the same as me.
So, both of us ended up in the same form as the Lilim
while we inhabit this planet.

Rei:
Who are you?

Lol, this planet...

[AyrYntake]

What if Rei(Lilith) and Kaworu are FAR masquerading as humans/angels who wanted to put humanity out of their misery?

[Formless One]

1. Their personalities are clearly against such a notion. Rei has that whole "this world is made of suffering" monologue in EoE after she becomes Lillith, showing that she cares about our species, and Kowarou is... well Kowarou. He was going to do just that, but sacrificed himself instead so humanity could live.

2. I would not be surprised if they were based on the FAR, who did make them after all, but it doesn't really matter because they would have no contact with the FAR during the show due to the lack of FTL. Except for GNR, but that's only after the merger of Adam and Lillith, and there is no way they could possibly find the original FAR in the enormous gulf of intergalactic space. Therefor, their actions must be their own, and their choices guided by their own personalities.

[AyrYntake]

No, that's exactly what I meant by "put them out of their misery". Rei II perhaps thought she could slowly change the Ikaris' lives by caring for Shinji and Gendo, but she died, and Rei III decided it wasn't worth doing this slow process, hence instigating 3I.
As for Kaworu, even more so. You can see it from the way he talks about the Lilim.
As for the communication with the FAR, what I meant was that they might have been FAR watching this huge "experiment" and decided to have a hand in things.
I refuse to believe that the FAR would be evil enough to create an entire species, then watch it torture itself to death. That's just wrong.

[Formless One]

I refuse to believe that the FAR would be evil enough to create an entire species, then watch it torture itself to death. That's just wrong.

Eh? How are you getting that? And how is that worse than strait up killing them instead? I mean, humanity has its problems, but arguably as long as we don't outright kill ourselves, everything is fine. Instrumentality is the greater evil here.

And while maybe you have and small point about Rei, rmember also that when it came to it, she also let Shinji cancel the affair. In fact, most of their talk seems to me to revolve around her trying to convince Shinji that that is the better option, and that his suicide fantasy isn't worth it.

And as for Kowarou, do you not understand the importance of his sacrifice? He could have ended humanity right then and there, but in defiance of both his orders and his instinct as Adam, he chose to die instead. Sounds to me like he cared a little too much to unleash the apocalipse.

[AyrYntake]

Eh? How are you getting that? And how is that worse than strait up killing them instead? I mean, humanity has its problems, but arguably as long as we don't outright kill ourselves, everything is fine. Instrumentality is the greater evil here.

And as for Kowarou, do you not understand the importance of his sacrifice? He could have ended humanity right then and there, but in defiance of both his orders and his instinct as Adam, he chose to die instead. Sounds to me like he cared a little too much to unleash the apocalipse.

Was Instrumentality actually the greater evil, though? Remember that while it kills all of humanity, it also lets their poor little lost souls live in comfort and without conflict or pain. Surely that's what Kaworu had all figured out--BUT when he actually saw Shinji, and knew what human life was like, he lost the will to do it. His sacrifice was undeniable, but was he really right in the end? Look at EoE, where Shinji and Asuka are shown lying on the beach. Does that really seem the better option for humanity to you?

[Formless One]

Shinji in the End makes a long speech about how it is better to live in a world of suffering then to live in a dream without it. The whole "suffering makes us human" angle went over your head?

Look at EoE, where Shinji and Asuka are shown lying on the beach. Does that really seem the better option for humanity to you?

I've said this before in other threads: Instrumentality is like nuclear war; the only way to win the game is to not play it in the first place. At that point, from a utilitarian perspective, there will be suffering either way, only suffering in instrumentality is limited to psychological suffering only. Either way, its too late to avoid suffering, but by coming back to reality, there is the possibility of bettering yourself and alleviating your suffering for real. Instrumentality is just an ad hock solution to the problem, but if you face it head on in reality, you can come to a permanent solution to your problems. Therefor, Shinji's final decision is the better one.

Surely that's what Kaworu had all figured out--BUT when he actually saw Shinji, and knew what human life was like, he lost the will to do it. His sacrifice was undeniable, but was he really right in the end?

Sure. Again, "The only way to win the game is not to play." Clearly human problems can be dealt with normally without resorting to the "Kill them all" approach of instrumentality, even though it takes more effort. Clearly the better and more long term solution.

Really, these people just need some quality psychologists, not a big apocalipse

[AyrYntake]

No...but it does help by having fewer people in the world to psychoanalyze. Seriously.
This world would be so much a better place if there just weren't so many people.
That's no reason to go out killing them.
I agree entirely.

[Formless One]

No...but it does help by having fewer people in the world to psychoanalyze. Seriously.

Remember also that the problems they dealt with, while universal to the human race, are really that much more prevalent in Japan because of its culture (one of the many points Anno was trying to make when he made the show). The issue is better tackled not by bringing in more psychologists (even though that is what the cast of the show so desperately need) but by changing the culture.

Also, this is a permanent solution for the entire world when its Japan that has got it the worst. Good going, Seele!

[AuraTwilight]

The FAR aren't watching humanity. The implication is that, if the FAR aren't extinct, they have no idea what's going on with Earth, since the FAR did not want Adam and Lilith to coexist on the planet and would've done something about it if they could.

[AyrYntake]

I find that very irresponsible. Arrest them for negligence.

[Zaque]

^ Don't be so harsh, after all, they're human too. :P

but the problem is that the story changed a bit from the original outline, i.e. "Evangelion Proposal"

Sigh... So then shall we take the side that was portrayed at near the end of evangelion then?

<SSDS>

lol, awesome, as though it was a pet project by a group of FAR, although I wouldn't go so far as to say "Unfortunately, an Adam-type Seed has also landed on your planet. The Spear of Longinus we sent along with it should have turned it off." but rather something along the lines of: "Should a seed of a different type than you also land on this planet, the Spear of Longinus should take care of the issue so that you two don't mix." I don't think the FAR could predict which planet would have landed both seeds, just in case that they landed, otherwise there'd be no point in sending the lance with every seed of life...

As per the standard SF trope, the good ancestral race arose by slow natural process, but decided that being alone in the cosmos was not a good thing.

Would they have souls? the "natural" formation of a soul?

What if Rei(Lilith) and Kaworu are FAR masquerading as humans/angels who wanted to put humanity out of their misery?

They don't get any special powers till they merge... and they were "created" by humans too, and then the spear would also be unnecessary. and the list goes on....

I refuse to believe that the FAR would be evil enough to create an entire species, then watch it torture itself to death. That's just wrong.

Do similar things happen with us? But I doubt that this would happen too, but perhaps not out of the same reasons.

Look at EoE, where Shinji and Asuka are shown lying on the beach. Does that really seem the better option for humanity to you?

Yes. At least people are alive.

[AuraTwilight]

I find that very irresponsible. Arrest them for negligence.

Well, what would you have them do? If they're not extinct, they can't watch every planet in the entire universe all the time. And they did take precautions to account for the scenario. It would've worked, too, if humanity didn't fuck with Adam.