EoE Ritsuko's Last Scene: Gendo's Unheard Line

[The Goose]

I'm actually concerned as to why Anno didn't want us to hear it. Considering that every person has a different answer for this, could it be amibigous?

[Shin-seiki]

If by "ambiguous" you mean there is no definitive answer, well, that sort of goes without saying. We are all simply offering our own conception of what fits, according to our individual perception of the plot elements that lead up to this point, and our own reading of Ritsuko and Gendo's demeanor in the scene.

(OTOH, there is nothing ambiguous at all regarding the identity of Rei's soul...)

[Eva Yojimbo]

I completely agree with Res Novae on the idea that the last line is:

"I truly had no regrets concerning my work."

In fact, I'm almost 100% sure that's what it is.

Check out this thread on ANF for a more detailed explanation of why I think this is what the last line is: http://www.animenation.net/forums/showthread.php?t=117875&page=16

I actually posted that BEFORE I saw this thread, so apparantly Res and I noticed the same thing. I happen to think that that line fits in so perfectly with that scene (it explains why Ritsuko smiled before saying "liar", it explains why the voice actress said Anno was "a genius" when she found out what it was, it explains why Anno hushed the line, etc.) that it's too hard for me to think of anything else Gendo could've said there being more perfect and effective than that line.

[Katayoku no Tenshi]

Did you read this one too? Personaly I think, baring the connection with the Naoko line, it seems a bit of a trivial thing for a last message. Unless ... damn thinking is required How dare you make me think!

[Eva Yojimbo]

Nope, I haven't read that thread either (I'm very new to both of these forums). But how is that line trivial? What could Gendo have said that would've been more significant than that? He's saying he has no regrets about what he's done. From Ritsuko's perspective, not only is she being fed the same line as her mother was, but she's not even getting an apology from Gendo about sacrificing her to Seele. How more "defeated" (taking the VA's statement into consideration) could she have been by any other line?

Not only that, but what other line could Gendo deliver, that would exhibit THAT reaction from Ritsuko (smile, as if realizing something, and then her way of saying "Liar")? It wasn't as if she was screaming "liar!" at him because she didn't believe he loved/needed her, the way she says "liar" is almost one of her giving into the idea that she's been "totally and utterly defeated".

I mean, does Gendo apologizing or expressing his love for Ritsuko here really sound like something Gendo would do? He certainly didn't to Naoko, so why would he to Ritsuko? The only person he ever expressed any remorse about anything to is the one person he's sacrificed everything and everybody to see again, and that's Yui. Hence, why he had no regrets about his work.

Also, one last thing: If we are to assume that the line is relevant to Anno somehow (it was important enough for him to hush it), why does that line not perfectly fit with Anno's feelings as well?

[Res Novae]

That other forum is ugly, I refuse to take part in it! It is interesting that someone else proposed the same theory I did, though.

[Eva Yojimbo]

That other forum is ugly, I refuse to take part in it! It is interesting that someone else proposed the same theory I did, though.

I honestly wish I had come here and read that thread first. I certainly don't want you to think I was ripping your idea off. :oops:

[Res Novae]

Haha, no worries, I wouldn't care if you were or not either way. We're all just looking for answers.

[Eva Yojimbo]

True, but if I had an original idea and somebody blatantly ripped me off without giving me credit (even to the extent of "Hey, I read this idea I liked and I'll explain why...), I'd be kinda pissed.

[Reichu]

The truth is, every idea in the universe -- past, present, future, etc. -- has been stolen from Zugzwang, and he is very angry about this indeed. So angry, in fact, that he posts hallucinohermetic rants about it in an ocean of Rei pr0n whenever he has the chance.

Ummmm... Obscure reference. Disregard.

[BLACKANGEL32076]

This is the problem I have with the “I truly loved you” option. See, to me, it only makes sense in the context of OMF’s analysis of WHY Gendo sent Ritsuko. When Gendo realizes that Ritsuko figured it out, and destroyed the dummy plugs as a result, he has the shocked look on his face in the cell because he has lost the only one still alive that he ever truly loved as a part of his life, even if he didn’t love her as much as Yui.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

When Gendo realizes that Ritsuko figured it out, and destroyed the dummy plugs as a result, he has the shocked look on his face in the cell because he has lost the only one still alive that he ever truly loved as a part of his life, even if he didn’t love her as much as Yui.

What exactly do you mean to say that Ritsuko figured out? That she figured out she was sent as a substitute for Rei, or that she was sent because of how much she meant to Gendou?

[BLACKANGEL32076]

When Gendo realizes that Ritsuko figured it out, and destroyed the dummy plugs as a result, he has the shocked look on his face in the cell because he has lost the only one still alive that he ever truly loved as a part of his life, even if he didn’t love her as much as Yui.

What exactly do you mean to say that Ritsuko figured out? That she figured out she was sent as a substitute for Rei, or that she was sent because of how much she meant to Gendou?

That she was a substitute for Rei. Based on the look on his face, I had felt that, possibly in his arrogance, the Old Men wouldn’t think of using that little tidbit of info against him. Why? I have no idea. However the look on his face was a big clue to this being the case. To me it’s almost like a Gendo version of getting his hand caught in the cookie jar.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

That she was a substitute for Rei. Based on the look on his face, I had felt that, possibly in his arrogance, the Old Men wouldn’t think of using that little tidbit of info against him.

I don't think this is correct. If we look at the dialogue here

IKARI: Why did you destroy the dummy system?

RITSUKO:Not the dummy system, what I destroyed was Rei.

IKARI:I will only ask you this once. Why?

Gendou repeats his question. This is why he has come down to the cell. He doesn't know why she destroyed the dummy system. Not only that, he really has no idea why.

He most likely knows she's been raped. He knows for certain she was a substitute, as he was the one who made the switch. But can we say that he doesn't realise that Ritsuko knew she was a substitute? Does he think then, that Ritsuko would not have figured out that she was Rei's substitute? Does he really think she is oblivious? I think that this conclusion is unrealistic.

I think Gendou knows Ritsuko was a substitute. Moreover, I think he knows that Ritsuko knows she was a substitute, or at least cannot reasonably expect her to be ignorant of this. I also argue, as above. that he knows full well about her rape, having negotiated it as part of his sacrafice.

In fact, I think there's only one thing that Gendou was ignorant of when he came into the cell. The reason for his first and only question, that he presses a second time. He's missing a piece of the puzzle, and without it he simply cannot fathom why Ritsuko would destroy the summy system.

The piece he's missing is this.

Gendou was genuinely oblivious to Ritsuko's silent envy of Rei. Her words in episode #23'

RITSUKO:
Yes, I know. I'm destroying them.
They're not people. They're things shaped like people.
But I lost, even to these things! I couldn't win!

Ritsuko thought Rei was her rival for Gendou's affections. Moreover, her rival for his bed! Ritsuko fears being replaced, like her mother before her, for a younger model. That's why her rape in place of Rei drove her to destroy the dummy system. In her mind, it was the moment of her replacement. And so, after she returned, instead of attacking him, something he might have expected, she attacked the Rei's. Gendou cannot understand why she did this, because he does not know about her envy of Rei.

To Gendou, Ritsuko has no reason whatsoever to hold Rei to blame. He is the one who sacraficed her, and to him, that sacrafice was so precious because of how much he loved her. He knows she may well take her revenge on him, that he can understand. But he cannot understand why she would take it out on Rei. He has failed utterly to realise that Ritsuko considered herself in intimate and sexual competition with Rei.

And the reason he has failed to realise this, is because Ritsuko was never in either intimate or sexual competition with Rei. Rei was not, and never would be Gendou's lover.

YUI (OFF): Have you decided yet?

IKARI (OFF): If it's a boy, Shinji. If it's a girl, I'll name her Rei.

YUI (OFF): Shinji... Rei...

Rei is Gendou's surrogate daughter, and always has been. There's a general opinion of Gendou as a lecherous pedophile lusting after his wife's younger self, but frankly, there's not a shred of evidence in the show to support this. Ritsuko is his lover, not Rei, and Ritsuko's imagined rivalry is just that. Imaginary.

IKARI: Why did you destroy the dummy system?

RITSUKO:Not the dummy system, what I destroyed was Rei.

IKARI:I will only ask you this once. Why?

Gendou knows Ritsuko has been raped. He knows that she knows he sent her in place of Rei. The only thing he didn't know about was Ritsuko's deep and secret resentment of Rei. Even when she comes right out and tells him why she destroyed the dummy system, he still doesn't realise what she is saying, and repeats his question. It never even entered his head that Ritsuko views his relationship with his "daughter", as a threat to their own.

By the end of the scene, it's probable that Gendou realises the truth. But when he came in, it was the last thing on his mind. He was perplexed, not because he thought Ritsuko was ignorant of her role, but because he was ignorant of what she thought of that role.

[Sailor Star Dust]

You win an Internet. Espeically the part about Rei being Gendo's surrogate daughter, a lot of people miss the boat with that. :roll:


Edit: I don't think Gendo knew OR arranged Ritsuko's rape, either.

[Reichu]

Some good stuff above, but I'm a bit incredulous about Gendo "arranging" Lady Akagi's rape and everything you proposed that goes with it, OMF.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Edit: I don't think Gendo knew OR arranged Ritsuko's rape, either.

If you accept the idea of Ritsuko being a "sacrafice", it's a more or less inescapable conclusion. He can either expect that or her execution. But even without going by this, we are still lead to this conclusion. Remember, without any torture or the like, Gendou would simply be paying SEELE with their own coin. They are free to summon Ritsuko, their own employee, at any time they wish. And a simple formal investigation would allow her to hide the truth from them, as Misato did in episode #17. Ritsuko is being sent into far greater danger than Misato or Fuyutsuki, and Gendou knows it all too well.

While he may not have arranged all the gory details, I think it's most likely that Gendou had forward knowladge of the rape, or at the very least that Ritsuko would suffer torture.

Some good stuff above, but I'm a bit incredulous about Gendo "arranging" Lady Akagi's rape and everything you proposed that goes with it, OMF.

I think that may be in part because you're sufferring from, partially "ReDeath" induced, misconceptions about Gendou.

It's common to take Gendou as being a very one dimensional "villian" in Evangelion. The "Uber Pimp" is a subset of this. But Gendou is more than one dimensional. We have discussed his motivations and actions at length, but there still remains a view of the character as ruthless and remourseless. Someone without pity or scruples.

But I think we have left behind the human element of Gendou. It's difficult to make out through his cruel deeds and cold exterior, but can be very concretely seen in the show. His smiles at Rei, his concern for her, his words with Yui, and his pained look in Ritsuko's cell. I think we've let his relationship with Shinji cloud our judgement of the character. While he may have many negative aspects, we do catch glimpses of his kinder side. It's difficult to see, but at least one person did spot it:

YUI:
Oh, but Professor Fuyutsuki, he's quite a sweet person.
It's just that no one knows it.

Proposals for Gendou's final words have usually included "I truely loved you", or words to that effect. While I do not think they are what was said, it's interesting to note that many people dismiss even the idea that Gendou loved Ritsuko at all. It seems incredulous to many that he could do so. It's sometimes difficult to believe that he even loved Yui.

But he does have a human side. But also, he is ultimately a ruthless man, and in the end sacraficed Ritsuko. If you view this a difficult decision on Gendou's part rather than a callous and easy one, a lot of previously puzzling things begin to make sense.

[Reichu]

Some good stuff above, but I'm a bit incredulous about Gendo "arranging" Lady Akagi's rape and everything you proposed that goes with it, OMF.

I think that may be in part because you're sufferring from, partially "ReDeath" induced, misconceptions about Gendou. <snip>

Hmm, I think you took the "everything" part the wrong way.

Just FYI, your reply is choking on irony, considering I've on many occasions talked about Gendo's underlying humanity (however flawed) and fought against the omnipresent stereotypes hounding his character.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Just FYI, your reply is choking on irony, considering I've on many occasions talked about Gendo's underlying humanity (however flawed) and fought against the omnipresent stereotypes hounding his character.

Apologies. To be honest I took your reply as opportunity to talk about the general view of Gendou's character. But, I don't think anyone has ever taken seriously the idea that Gendou in fact loved Ritsuko. I think this is something that needs to be looked at again.

[Reichu]

How could a guy so single-mindedly and pathologically obsessed with this one woman really love this other one? "Love" seems like an awfully strong word to me.

"The truth is, I love you so much I can blow you away with a perfectly straight face."
"...... Liar."
*BAM!!!!*

And, being the screenshot fiend that I am, I noticed the face he was making at Ritsuko in #24 eons ago, and took it as being one of those rare indications that, YES PEOPLE, Gendo isn't a totally callous and insensitive individual. Although he won't actually let you know that he cares in any way.