Why didn't Hyuga self-destruct NERV HQ in EoE?

[Berserk EVA-02]

Since Episode 13 it was established that there was a specific option, NERV Special Order 582, that could be issued to self-destruct NERV HQ in dire times. It can be triggered by the Magi, and can also seemingly be triggered manually as is seemingly the case in Episode 24, when Hyuga suggests to "set this place to self-destruct" as “It'll be better than letting them set off the Third Impact.” Taking this into consideration, why didn't Hyuga issue the self-destruct order prior to the Third Impact? It likely wasn't because of Casper-3 rejecting Ritsuko's order considering that in Episode 24 it seemed apparent that Hyuga could simply set it to self-destruct without the consent of the Magi nor even the other NERV staff.

Such a deed seemed entirely feasible technically speaking, so the only rational explanation would be that he didn't find it necessary. The JSSDF invasion admittedly wasn't a threat that would warrant a self-destruct, nor was the arrival of the Mass Production Evangelions and their cannibalization of EVA-02 considering that EVA-01 had yet to sortie, and thus in Hyuga's eyes there was still a chance to protect the Terminal Dogma from the MPEs (as I suppose that he assumed the MPEs would try to contact Lilith rather than to use EVA-01 to trigger the Third Impact through a mystical ritual). But by the time GNR emerged from the Terminal Dogma into the Command Center, I find it baffling that Hyuga would still not initiate self-destruct as by then the impending doom became apparent. So why didn't he self-destruct NERV HQ? Could he have prevented the Third Impact had he done so?

Another question that this has also led me to reflect upon is could Ritsuko have prevented the Third Impact had Casper-3 obeyed her?

[Blockio]

Another thing is just that in a situation like that, rational evaluation just takes a back burner to the adrenaline

[Berserk EVA-02]

Another thing is just that in a situation like that, rational evaluation just takes a back burner to the adrenaline

Had sheer adrenaline-induced stress been clouding Hyuga's judgement during EoE, I would have envisioned him preemptively self-destructing rather than ignoring the self-destruct option altogether. Considering how important and useful it could have been since the JSSDF invasion, Hyuga should have likely had the self-destruct option be the primary thing on his mind, waiting for the occasion under which it would become necessary, and his heightened sense of stress would likely only intensify his fixation on triggering the self-destruct rather than making him neglect it altogether. It clearly was on his mind in Episode 24, so much so that when Misato was about to suggest it Hyuga cut her and finished the sentence for her, showing that the thought had been brewing for quite a while and that he had come to terms with doing it when the time came.

[Blockio]

Speaking from personal experience during some high octane field drills; stuff like that just doesn't cross your mind in these situations. You just sit behind cover waiting for the inevitable to come crashing down

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Nerv self-destructing wouldn't solve anything, I don't think. Seele wanted the JSSDF to secure the Evangelion Units, not Nerv. Nerv was only an obstacle -the only obstacle- in the way of the Evangelion Units being secured by Seele for their own purposes. Gendo (and, at this point, Misato) knew what the real deal was. Nerv was never the target to begin with, so ordering a self-destruct wouldn't have helped anything at that time. Gendo saw Nerv's position as the only thing standing in the way of Seele getting what they wanted and decided to go all out to war with it. Misato saw the pieces moving and decided that Asuka and Shinji had to defeat the Mass Produced Eva Series in order to keep both parties from getting what they wanted. Blowing up Nerv would do noting more that remove the only thing standing in the way of Seele securing Eva Unit 01, thus, it would be against Nerv's best interest to self-destruct at that time. As powerful as any destructive force has been in the series thus far, none of it was enough to completely demolish the Eva Units. (Unit 00 survived an N2 mine in Episode 19, for example.) And Seele could easily use other Nerv facilities from around the world to repair any damages that such a destructive force could inflict on the Eva Units once Nerv Japan self destructed, ultimately accomplishing nothing more than a delay in Seele's plans.

Now, if Evangelion Unit 01 self destructed, it would be game over for Seele and Gendo. But the mechanics behind an Eva self-destructing were never explored much in the show, and was only mentioned in Episode 23 when Rei II self-destructed Unit 00. (I forget how she did that, though I seem to be under the impression that the method she used to self-destruct was unique to the angel she was fighting, and not an actual self-destruct "button" or anything like that. I could be wrong, though.) But I don't think Misato would tell Shinji to go on a suicide mission. Not even in EoE. (Her "You can die later," line seems to imply that Shinji would be free to decide his own fate, and that she wants nothing to do with forcing Shinji's death.)

[BernardoCairo]

I was going to write something about it, but FreakyFilmFan4ever already said everything I was thinking! hahaha
With regard to Ayanami's death, in both anime and manga, she pulled a lever to initiate Unit 00's self-destruction. After doing that, the words "DriveA Mode:D" appeared on some kind of mechanism (probably DriveA itself) and the Evangelion exploded.

[AdamMalkovitch]

While Unit 01 [and potentially Unit 02 if needed if Anima's backstory is as close to NGE as I've been led to believe] was the primary target, I don't see why self destructing NERV wouldn't destroy it. In the cases an EVA was damaged, it always [unless I'm remembering wrong] had a pilot in it, and thus, an A.T. field. Shinji isn't able to project his as a shield in episode 01 as an example, but since he was still in the EVA, there was still AN A.T. field, even if it were only his internal one [the walls of his soul]. If an empty EVA were to take a hit, it would obviously take damage. We have no idea how powerful the explosives rigged to HQ's self-destruct are, but given that it's supposed to be a last option meant to scorched-earth the enemy's goal and seemingly the entirety of the facility, down to Terminal Dogma, it's likely any unmanned EVA caught in it would get fuckin wiped off the face of the Earth.

[BernardoCairo]

Good point! But the question is, how durable is the body of an Evangelion Unit itself (without being covered by an Absolute Terror Field)? I mean, Asuka was able to damage one EVA Unit by simply using some giant spikes (after nullifying its AT Field with hers). Furthermore, angels (who are very similar creatures to Evangelions) seem to be capable of being wounded by other human weapons (such as the Progressive Knife and the Positron Sniper Rifle).
So, that means EVAs are not as durable as we might think, right? Well, I don't know. In the end, these are still clones of Gods and Unit 01 had an S2 engine inside of it. Who knows what would happen if it were just a mere explosion (probably caused by an N2 mine)?
Well, Unit 00 was able to self-destruct by using what appears to be an internal device. Would that be enough to damage it on the outside, though? I don't know either! hahaha

[UrsusArctos]

With regard to Ayanami's death, in both anime and manga, she pulled a lever to initiate Unit 00's self-destruction. After doing that, the words "DriveA Mode:D" appeared on some kind of mechanism (probably DriveA itself) and the Evangelion exploded.

Yes, and the self-destruct system is in the back of her entry plug. We never learn whether the Eva has a conventional self-destruct mechanism, like an N2 mine surgically implanted inside the Eva, or whether there's something more exotic involved.

However, given that the Eva had a disk drive that had to go into Mode:D, and the similarity of that with the Dummy System's disk drive, I'm guessing that there's some of Nerv's signature digitized data involved. In the same episode, Episode 23, Ritsuko destroys all the Rei clones in the tank through "Destrudo Release", so Mode:D could've been the Destrudo Release for the Eva. Instead of falling to pieces like the Rei clones, releasing "Destrudo" for Eva-00 (giving the Eva a death wish, in effect) caused the whole thing to blow up spectacularly. Perhaps Nerv figured out why Sachiel, the Israfel twins and Sahaquiel all went explodey and decided to implement the same effect in an Eva to prevent it from being captured.

On topic, the utter madness of GNR's creation probably made no sense at all, especially since GNR registered as "human", and not "Angel", and it was probably not clear to anyone involved what was going on. Hyuga's training went on the lines of "An Angel entering Terminal Dogma will trigger Third Impact" but he hadn't prepared for a giant glowing 14-year-old girl emerging from underground, and he had no idea if Third Impact would actually happen in the face of the utterly insane circumstances he was looking at. GNR was probably beyond being hurt by Nerv's self-destruct mechanism by that point, and with Eva-01 in the air it's unlikely that Hyuga blowing up the place would've stopped Third Impact.

But would Ritsuko have stopped Third Impact had Casper not stopped her? Questionable. Gendo and Shinji would be toast, but Rei was aware of her Lilith nature by this time, and would likely have survived the blast. Whether or not Lilith would survive is an open question. The Evangelions would survive. She'd very nearly be handing Seele their version of Third Impact on a platter if she blew the place up.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

With regard to Ayanami's death, in both anime and manga, she pulled a lever to initiate Unit 00's self-destruction. After doing that, the words "DriveA Mode:D" appeared on some kind of mechanism (probably DriveA itself) and the Evangelion exploded.

Ah, thanks for picking up on that. I swear, I just finished revisiting both the manga and the TV show, but that detail still evaded me, mostly because of everything else that happens around that detail. the last few episodes take so many emotional turns that it's nearly impossible for me to remember all of the world-building involved in them.

But would Ritsuko have stopped Third Impact had Casper not stopped her? Questionable. Gendo and Shinji would be toast, but Rei was aware of her Lilith nature by this time, and would likely have survived the blast. Whether or not Lilith would survive is an open question. The Evangelions would survive. She'd very nearly be handing Seele their version of Third Impact on a platter if she blew the place up.

Ritsuko seemed to be fully knowledgeable and on-board with Gendo's Third Impact in EoTV, even after she was detained by Gendo. And Ritsuko's selective silences to Misato's remarks while trying to sus out Eva's purpose in the last half of the show is a bit telling. Her actions in EoE seem to indicate that her feelings on Third Impact are separate from her feelings towards Gendo, but there's no clear evidence one way or the other as far as I can tell.

[BernardoCairo]

Yes, and the self-destruct system is in the back of her entry plug. We never learn whether the Eva has a conventional self-destruct mechanism, like an N2 mine surgically implanted inside the Eva, or whether there's something more exotic involved.

I always had the impression that in the anime there is something more exotic behind it and in the manga it is simply a mechanical thing (probably a N2 mine). Basically, the minute details change my whole perception of the scene.
In the manga, Ayanami simply pulled the lever and the Evangelion exploded. But, in the anime, Unit 00 became a giant "light version" of Rei before self-destruction. I know that this detail makes no difference to what is actually happening and the change was probably just a stylistic one, but it intrigues me. Well, the whole "giant Ayanami" situation could simply have something to do with the angel she defeated. I don't know.

However, given that the Eva had a disk drive that had to go into Mode:D, and the similarity of that with the Dummy System's disk drive, I'm guessing that there's some of Nerv's signature digitized data involved. In the same episode, Episode 23, Ritsuko destroys all the Rei clones in the tank through "Destrudo Release", so Mode:D could've been the Destrudo Release for the Eva. Instead of falling to pieces like the Rei clones, releasing "Destrudo" for Eva-00 (giving the Eva a death wish, in effect) caused the whole thing to blow up spectacularly. Perhaps Nerv figured out why Sachiel, the Israfel twins and Sahaquiel all went explodey and decided to implement the same effect in an Eva to prevent it from being captured.

That's a pretty good explanation! I remember thinking that "Drive:A" was a mechanism similar to what we see when the Dummy System is used, but I've never gone as far as you while thinking about it. I mean, it would make complete sense considering the themes of episode 23.

Ah, thanks for picking up on that. I swear, I just finished revisiting both the manga and the TV show, but that detail still evaded me, mostly because of everything else that happens around that detail. the last few episodes take so many emotional turns that it's nearly impossible for me to remember all of the world-building involved in them.

Minor details like this one are always difficult to remember. I just precisely knew it because I literally read volume 10 of the manga last week, so it's fresh in my mind hahaha.

[Berserk EVA-02]

Speaking from personal experience during some high octane field drills; stuff like that just doesn't cross your mind in these situations. You just sit behind cover waiting for the inevitable to come crashing down

That's surprising to hear. I suppose I may have been projecting my obsessional neurosis onto Hyuga, as when recalling the few very serious adrenaline-inducing situations that I've experienced, I always remember having a very strong fixation on specific subjects.

Blowing up Nerv would do noting more that remove the only thing standing in the way of Seele securing Eva Unit 01, thus, it would be against Nerv's best interest to self-destruct at that time. As powerful as any destructive force has been in the series thus far, none of it was enough to completely demolish the Eva Units. (Unit 00 survived an N2 mine in Episode 19, for example.)

As AdamMalkovitch noted, EVA units seemingly only ever formed A.T. fields when having a pilot present. From what it seems, the bodies of seeds or clones of such bodies by themselves cannot form A.T. fields (neither Adam's embryo nor Lilith's soulless body ever generated A.T. fields) and that only the soul of seeds (such as Kaworu and Rei) and bodies of seeds or clones of such bodies piloted by life forms born after 2I, can generate A.T. fields (I have no idea why that's the case for the latter, its more than likely just out of narrative necessity). And thus it is unlikely that EVA-01 could protect itself against a self-destruct prior to Shinji entering it, and the same applies to Lilith prior to Rei reuniting with it.

Good point! But the question is, how durable is the body of an Evangelion Unit itself (without being covered by an Absolute Terror Field)? I mean, Asuka was able to damage one EVA Unit by simply using some giant spikes (after nullifying its AT Field with hers). Furthermore, angels (who are very similar creatures to Evangelions) seem to be capable of being wounded by other human weapons (such as the Progressive Knife and the Positron Sniper Rifle).

I must say I don't think you can conflate the durability of MPEs with typical EVA units. The armour of MPEs seemed to be infused with their flesh, leading them to be particularly vulnerable to attacks with conventional weapons. Their heads in specific, EVA-02 simply crushed with its bare hands, a feat which I'm quite confident could never be achieved against any of the original three EVA units. Angels also had much variety, certain angels like Matarael and Gaghiel seemed quite similar to the MPEs in terms of durability and damage resistance whilst Sachiel, Samshiel and Ramiel seemed moreso similar to the original three EVAs durability and damage resistance-wise. However this is not to say that I think EVAs are invulnerable against conventional weapons. It was made clear in Episode 16 for example, when EVA-01 was swallowed into the Dirac sea, that with a sufficient amount of N2 mines even an EVA unit with an A.T. field active could eventually be damaged to the point of killing the pilot. Admittedly Ritusko notes that such a deed would be to secure the EVA, signifying that the Lilith body of the EVA would likely survive and is more durable than the pilot or the entry plug, but still, in order for the EVA's entry plug to be destroyed EVA-01 would likely have to sustain very serious damage, more than likely past the Hayflick limit. This does indicate that the EVAs or at least EVA-01 is vulnerable to conventional weapons even with an active A.T. field if the destructive force is high enough.

On topic, the utter madness of GNR's creation probably made no sense at all, especially since GNR registered as "human", and not "Angel", and it was probably not clear to anyone involved what was going on. Hyuga's training went on the lines of "An Angel entering Terminal Dogma will trigger Third Impact" but he hadn't prepared for a giant glowing 14-year-old girl emerging from underground, and he had no idea if Third Impact would actually happen in the face of the utterly insane circumstances he was looking at.

This is certainly the most reasonable explanation yet. I think its very evident that Hyuga knew shit was about to go down by the time GNR arose unto the Command Center, but the absurdity of the situation itself probably left Hyuga with no practical options on his mind and thus he likely just resorted to hoplelessly gazing as this Lovecraftian debacle was unraveling itself.

Well, the whole "giant Ayanami" situation could simply have something to do with the angel she defeated. I don't know.

Firstly I must note that it was only in DC that the infusion between EVA-00 and Armisael prior to the self-destruct formed a giant Rei. In the original OA EVA-00 grew some large brown mass and emitted blue sparks prior to exploding. In cut 349 of Episode 23 (from DC) GNR does appears in front of Shinji from Armisael, so I suppose this metamorphosis into a giant Rei prior to EVA-00's explosion is because it is infused with Armisael rather than the self-destruct mode itself.

[BernardoCairo]

I must say I don't think you can conflate the durability of MPEs with typical EVA units. The armour of MPEs seemed to be infused with their flesh, leading them to be particularly vulnerable to attacks with conventional weapons. Their heads in specific, EVA-02 simply crushed with its bare hands, a feat which I'm quite confident could never be achieved against any of the original three EVA units. Angels also had much variety, certain angels like Matarael and Gaghiel seemed quite similar to the MPEs in terms of durability and damage resistance whilst Sachiel, Samshiel and Ramiel seemed moreso similar to the original three EVAs durability and damage resistance-wise. However this is not to say that I think EVAs are invulnerable against conventional weapons. It was made clear in Episode 16 for example, when EVA-01 was swallowed into the Dirac sea, that with a sufficient amount of N2 mines even an EVA unit with an A.T. field active could eventually be damaged to the point of killing the pilot. Admittedly Ritusko notes that such a deed would be to secure the EVA, signifying that the Lilith body of the EVA would likely survive and is more durable than the pilot or the entry plug, but still, in order for the EVA's entry plug to be destroyed EVA-01 would likely have to sustain very serious damage, more than likely past the Hayflick limit. This does indicate that the EVAs or at least EVA-01 is vulnerable to conventional weapons even with an active A.T. field if the destructive force is high enough.

Hum, interesting. Your post made me think about two things with regard to the subject.
Firstly, the armor. We all know that its main purpose is to contain the Evangelion's true power, as said by Ritsuko. But it also seems to protect the Unit's integrity itself. I mean, we see that Asuka was able to survive several bomb falls at the bottom of the lake, for example. I'm just not sure how durable said armor really is. How many N2 mines would it take to destroy an Evangelion? I don't know.
Now, about the EVA Series, I can understand your point. We see a lot of Units being damaged quite easily by Asuka. It also makes sense that physical durability is not the main focus of these Evangelions (considering that they have S2 engines in their bodies and, thus, can regenerate themselves). But, if that's true, how less durable they are compared to Units 00, 01 and 02? In episode 24, we see that Shinji is able to dispose Unit 02 in a similar fashion, while using a Progressive Knife.
Honestly, even though I agree with you in some regards, I still think that the major factor behind their initial defeat was Asuka's great pilot attributes (on a technical level, she was the best in the original series)

Firstly I must note that it was only in DC that the infusion between EVA-00 and Armisael prior to the self-destruct formed a giant Rei. In the original OA EVA-00 grew some large brown mass and emitted blue sparks prior to exploding. In cut 349 of Episode 23 (from DC) GNR does appears in front of Shinji from Armisael, so I suppose this metamorphosis into a giant Rei prior to EVA-00's explosion is because it is infused with Armisael rather than the self-destruct mode itself.

Yeah, i agree with you! This event certainly has to do with the contact between Unit 00 and Armisael. I think it's really cool how this little addition from DC was able to make the whole atmosphere of the scene more "mystical" and intriguing.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

As AdamMalkovitch noted, EVA units seemingly only ever formed A.T. fields when having a pilot present. From what it seems, the bodies of seeds or clones of such bodies by themselves cannot form A.T. fields (neither Adam's embryo nor Lilith's soulless body ever generated A.T. fields) and that only the soul of seeds (such as Kaworu and Rei) and bodies of seeds or clones of such bodies piloted by life forms born after 2I, can generate A.T. fields (I have no idea why that's the case for the latter, its more than likely just out of narrative necessity). And thus it is unlikely that EVA-01 could protect itself against a self-destruct prior to Shinji entering it, and the same applies to Lilith prior to Rei reuniting with it.

I feel like Eva Unit 01 was always painted as “Special” in the TV series. It woke up in Episode 1 on its own without a pilot, and who knows what it’s capable of after eating the S2 Engine in Episode 19.

[Berserk EVA-02]

Hum, interesting. Your post made me think about two things with regard to the subject.
Firstly, the armor. We all know that its main purpose is to contain the Evangelion's true power, as said by Ritsuko. But it also seems to protect the Unit's integrity itself. I mean, we see that Asuka was able to survive several bomb falls at the bottom of the lake, for example. I'm just not sure how durable said armor really is. How many N2 mines would it take to destroy an Evangelion? I don't know.
Now, about the EVA Series, I can understand your point. We see a lot of Units being damaged quite easily by Asuka. It also makes sense that durability is not the main focus of these Evangelions (considering that they have S2 engines in their bodies and, thus, can regenerate themselves). But, if that's true, how less durable they are compared to Units 00, 01 and 02? In episode 24, we see that Shinji is able to dispose Unit 02 in a similar fashion, while using a Progressive Knife.
Honestly, even though I agree with you in some regards, I still think that the major factor behind their initial defeat was Asuka's great pilot attributes (on a technical level, she was the best in the original series)

That's bad wording on my part. The MPEs are far more durable than the original three EVA units ever could be thanks to their S2 engines' regenerative powers. However from a standpoint of immediate damage, the MPEs are considerably more fragile, soft and weak at resisting damage in comparison to the NERV EVAs, though of course all extensive damage they endure is simply healed though regeneration. And yes as you have noted, EVA-02 does get stabbed in the face by EVA-01 rather effortlessly with the progressive knife but piercing through armour is far less difficult than crushing it. (Admittedly EVA-03 does get its head crushed by EVA-01 but that seems to be caused by Bardiel significantly weakening the rigidity of the EVA as a whole.)

I feel like Eva Unit 01 was always painted as “Special” in the TV series. It woke up in Episode 1 on its own without a pilot, and who knows what it’s capable of after eating the S2 Engine in Episode 19.

Unfortunately there simply isn't much information regarding the strength resistance of the original three EVA units when not under the influence of an A.T. field. Judging by the MPEs killing themselves by striking their core with the Lance of Longinus, it does appear that an S2 engine would be of no use if the core is destroyed. Since I have no idea how durable EVA-01's core is when devoid of an A.T. field I have no way for sure to determine if the self-destruct would indeed destroy the core, but if it would EVA-01 would undoubtedly be dead (referring to the Lilith-cloned body rather than Yui of course).

Merged double posts - Blockio