What are Anno's opinions on the original series ending?

[BusterMachine4]

Basically, I started this thread just to ask the question seen above. Does anyone know for sure what Anno thought about the original finale, episodes 25 and 26?

I've heard conflicting stories. Some interviews with him seem to indicate that he was satisfied with the ending, and doesn't agree with the opinions of people who criticized it. On the other hand, other interviews seemingly show him criticizing the series ending, even saying that he hated it as soon as it aired.

The reason I'm asking is because of the ever-popular "EoE was created out of spite against angry fans" claim. There has been a lot of debate in the Eva fan community over this, with most people on EvaGeeks choosing to side against that claim. However, I think that having a concrete answer over how Anno felt about the ending would go along way towards settling that debate. I know that Anno's interviews are notoriously hard to interpret, so I'd like to hear from other people on this.

[kuribo-04]

I'd have to do some diggimg up. But I very clearly know of two interviews. One I read recently. It's actually more of a retelling of Anno's visit to the US. Basically here he said it turned out beautiful. He also said "Too bad" (in English lol) directed at fans who didn't like the two episodes.

Then there is an interview I read a million years ago with some Gainax member who wasn't Anno, saying he was super convinced with where he took the ending, but then nervously glanced at online comments when it released. This might ne on the gwern site.

https://www.gwern.net/otaku

[BusterMachine4]

Then there is an interview I read a million years ago with some Gainax member who wasn't Anno, saying he was super convinced with where he took the ending, but then nervously glanced at online comments when it released. This might ne on the gwern site.

https://www.gwern.net/otaku

Well, I think I found what you were looking for, and it was actually written by Anno himself, talking about how bad the ending was:

Anno: [Making the last two episodes] it felt like my brain kept on producing all these chemicals. When I saw episode 25 after first putting it together, I thought, “I’m a genius.” However, when I re-edited and re-watched it afterwards, I was crushed. It was no good at all. I was embarrassed my lack of ability. I apologize to the staff.

That statement pretty blatantly contradicts the "Too bad" interview though, so that's kind of weird. Since other Gainax members also confirmed that Anno didn't like the ending as soon as it aired, it seems likely that he was just trying to avoid seeming self-deprecating during the earlier interview.

[Blockio]

Buster, I'd advise you to not take Anno's word too literal there, as it might very well not reflect what he genuinely thinks. It's not exactly a rare occurence that writers and directors of surrealist works are extremely unhappy with the final result even when they are considered a masterpiece by others, just due to how high they set the bar for themselves. Especially the last part about "apologizing to the staff (or alternatively, everyone who watched it)" is quite a recurring theme of that. In general, just about any writer will tell you how shit their old work is and that you shouldn't watch/read it, why would Anno be any different?

[BusterMachine4]

But if we can't use the actual artist as a source when investigating said artist's opinions about a certain thing, who can we trust? It really does seem like Anno hated the original series ending, which makes it even more paradoxical that Anno defended the original ending as perfectly fine when confronted about it by fans. To me, it seems like either Anno was trying to avoid being self-deprecating during the "Too bad" interview, or he liked the ending at first and changed his tune after the negative reception.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Buster, and artist saying "Too bad," in response of someone else's dislike of something doesn't quiet indicate the artist's own feelings on of that thing. Anno's "Too bad" response just means that those two episodes are the way they are, and there's no changing that. I mean, what's Anno gonna do with those episodes that he hasn't already done in EoE?

Nothing.

That's what.

Absolutely nothing.

Those two episodes are the way they are. They've been included in every single release of the original TV series since their original air date. Even after Anno and the team completed a bunch of alterations of Episodes 21-24 and finished EoE, they still included the unchanged original last two episodes of the TV series. They have deemed the TV series ending as having as much of a right to exist as The End of Evangelion. If someone doesn't like them, then "Too bad." (The actual original aired versions of Episode 21-24, complete with the original animation errors that were corrected in the home video releases? Good luck finding those versions in a release post 2003.)

Honestly, this was probably a sentiment that Anno himself had to grapple with while he was apologizing to his staff. There literally wasn't anything he (or anyone else) could do to "fix" those two episodes. Anno himself didn't like the last two episodes. "Too bad." Apologize to the staff, show the weird episodes on TV, and move on. (And, boy howdy, is EoE a way to move on from the TV Series ending! It was quite the different approach to the same basic material.) And after dealing with all of that, -after dealing with the production complications and the feature film and the remasters and extended episodes,- if someone doesn't like one part of a thing he's made, then too bad.

[BusterMachine4]

That's a nice sentiment, but I don't feel like you get the context behind the "too bad" line. Immediately before that, he said about the last two episodes, "I don't have a problem with the way it ended. If there's a problem, it's with you guys." This seems to contradict his other statements, which is why I'm so weirded out.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

I think he might just be acing a little cheeky, there. Maybe it's his sense of humor?

Though, honestly, if Anno had any real issues with those last two episodes, they wouldn't be available in every release of NGE ever. The fact that he keeps releasing them with every new Blu-ray/DVD boxset tells us that he's at least made peace with the quality of those two episodes. It's not the actual original versions of Episodes 21-24, which are no longer available in the boxsets. It was probably that initial rush of finishing a project at the last minute in order to save the whole production juxtaposed to his revisiting of the episodes and realizing just how strange and different they were from the rest of the series that brought him down more than usual. (Let's be real, it's not common at all for a TV show to jump from bleak action/sci-fi to an abstract French New Wave montage in place of the climax of the series.)

[kuribo-04]

Sadamoto: (Kotono Mitsuishi) cried reading a script, for example. When Anno-san heard that - guts pose! (laughing)

Masayuki: What episode was that?

Sadamoto: 25.

Takekuma: Misato’s voice actress cried reading the script?

Sadamoto: So Anno did a guts pose. The supervisor of the manga also cried [reading it], and when Anno heard that, he did another guts pose (laughing). He was victorious, because two members of society had been reduced to tears. However, after it was finished, people told him various things, and he went into a state of collapse. What happened to the guts pose? (laughing)

Masayuki: When he was making episode 25 he was saying, “I’m a genius.” Then after it had broadcast, he came out of his room looking dazed. “Why did I make such a strange thing?” (laughing)

Sato: The last episode was the same, wasn’t it?

Masayuki: Well, he didn’t say anything about the last episode. Just with episode 25, he seemed to be extremely pleased with it. Then when he saw the broadcast, it was like, “I’m an idiot…” (laughing)

Sato: Afterwards he was looking at the reactions on message boards from a distance (laughing). Although he was saying he was going to ignore them, he was still looking out of the corner of his eye at the monitor. “I’m probably not going to look….” he said. “Right, I’m not going to look.”

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

I remember hearing that I made my grandmother cry with one of my college short films. I know what Anno felt there.

[Blockio]

But if we can't use the actual artist as a source when investigating said artist's opinions about a certain thing, who can we trust? It really does seem like Anno hated the original series ending, which makes it even more paradoxical that Anno defended the original ending as perfectly fine when confronted about it by fans.

Let me put it this way - I want you to show me just one artist, writer, composer, anything taking their work seriously who won't tell you that their old work sucks and is not worth looking at. It's a constant state of affairs, and that is before we even get to the territory of impostor syndrome

[Kendrix]

I'm going to come out and say that 25 is one of the best episodes actually

Misato's segment *chef's kiss*

[Blockio]

Mildly offtopic, but I don't think a lot of people are going to disagree about that on here. 25 and 26 are an excellent character study

[kuribo-04]

God tier editing in those episodes.

[BusterMachine4]

I actually agree that 25 and 26 are pretty good, and a nice summation of the character arcs and themes of the show. But on the other hand, I can’t ignore the fact that the main plot was just completely sidelined. Resolving the whole intriguing mystery plot with a black screen saying “Then, Instrumentality happened” was not a good idea. That’s why I ranked 25 as one of the worst episodes: I grouped the TV ending’s plot into 25, and the TV ending’s character stuff into 26.

I think we can all agree that making EoE was the best choice Anno could make, though. Not only is it a great movie, it also makes the TV ending better by continuing the plot lines that were dropped. I think the TV ending fans who talk about preferring that ending over EoE don’t realize that EoE is probably the reason why they like the TV ending in the first place.

[kuribo-04]

∆ I think it was a bold choice, but see it as a logical continuation of the focus on the characters. One of the things the show was making a point if is that a show like Eva is just another form of escapism, or can be used as such. Hence the episodes showing us storyboards, keyframes, the script and sometimes not using animation cels, breaking the illusion. Sidelining the plot (which in the end is just there to serve as context for the character stories) to me seems like anotyer good method of making the point.

That said, I like that watching Eva in release order, afger this initial crumbling of the show's reality, we do go back to it. EoE is justification enough for this being a good idea. Cause that film is perfect. The question is...does EoE tie things up more than the show? I think so, but not by too much IMO.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

^ Yeah, we get to see the Eva fights and all that fun stuff, and we find out that Seele's plan is just as incomprehensible and terrifying when experienced visually as it was confusing and strange when experienced in montages of character study, but the characters still end up more or less repeating their character arcs in EoTV. (In fact, if anything, Misato and Asuka are sidelined in EoE. Episode 25 fleshed out their phycology far more than EoE ever could.)

Mildly offtopic, but I don't think a lot of people are going to disagree about that on here. 25 and 26 are an excellent character study

I showed NGE to a friend of mine going to school for phycology, and she texts me during 23 and 26 asking "Are the last two episodes really just one long therapy session for Shinji?" She was excited to see so much progression in the character's mental state, only to be so very dismayed that we had to basically start back from scratch in EoE.

[kuribo-04]

(In fact, if anything, Misato and Asuka are sidelined in EoE. Episode 25 fleshed out their phycology far more than EoE ever could.)

Which is why in many countries telling people to "just skip 25 and 26" is considered an actual crime.

[Mr. Tines]

I think the TV ending fans who talk about preferring that ending over EoE don’t realize that EoE is probably the reason why they like the TV ending in the first place.

Some maybe, but not all. When I watched the series my reaction was pleased amazement that "they actually went there", full on Techno-Rapture, rather than falling prey to the reflexive sour grapes response to such things that one usually sees.

That latter waited until EoE, which, while being a powerful piece of cinema, reverted to the more conventional outcome at the point Giant Naked Rei started to fall to pieces -- that was the ending that drove me straight away to writing fix-fics.

[BusterMachine4]

So, you think that EoE would have been a better movie if Shinji had chosen to stay in Instrumentality? I’m not really sure about that. I feel like it would undermine the show’s message about self-actualization and not running away from the pain of reality. It seems like you’re more of a fan of transhumanist stuff, while I always thought that it’s getting rid of an essential part of being human. Because of that, I enjoyed EoE’s ending.