Are lilin and homo sapiens synonymous?

[orcot]

Why do you believe in NGE, the human race is referred to as lilin or the 18the angel?
If true, this particular angel suffers from some heavy multiple personality disorder. Following this argument you could say that the only time this being got somewhat coherent is when Big Scary Rei merged all of the humans together.

My point why bother with the 18 angel bid. Especiealy if Shinji was trying to prevent escapisme. (Reality being: no he isn't a individual he's a small temporal tought of a angel with a mental disorder and all he knows are in a similar position with the the exception of Rei and Kaworu)


PS this came afther listening to the curse of evangelion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHIvs0Q-uKI

I hope the author of the above piece is still somehow wrong
especialy around 16:45, Shinji obviously did not break the laws of his universe (to save Rei) and remains in escapisme. If Rei could be saved then it's possible in universe, men can not fly. But this is like saying the wright brothers did the inpossible rejected reality and went into escapisme? Humanity is rather famous for trying the inpossible and sometimes succeeding. But if that is steering off the topic, My problem is that it favors fatalisme over freewill, everything is predeterminend Shinji never had a choise and you could even argue that their never was a Shinji yust a temporal delusion of a mentally ill angel.

[BusterMachine4]

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here, but yes, Lilin aka the 18th Angel is the collective name for humans in the Eva universe. Just because it is composed of individual beings doesn't mean that it can't be an Angel. There are already some other cases of Angels composed of multiple beings, such as Israfel being able to split into two, or Ireul being composed of multiple microscopic particles. However, humans probably aren't an Angel in the Rebuild continuity, because all 12 Angels that have been established in that continuity have already been accounted for (except the 11th I guess, but it probably wasn't very important).

And I gotta agree that the "Curse of Evangelion" video you linked isn't really a good analysis, and makes all sorts of incorrect assumptions. I made a thread criticizing it a while ago, but it never really got much traction.

EDIT: Based on PM request by orcot, here’s the link to my thread:
thread/20335/YouTube-video-The-Curse-of-Evangelion/

[Blockio]

Humanity as a whole is explicitly referred t as the 18th Angel in EoE. No question about it.
As for everything else - I have no idea what you are getting at, this whole post is a complete non sequitur

[Berserker]

Lilin aka the 18th Angel is the collective name for humans in the Eva universe.

Not only humans, but every living organism on earth except angels are Lilin. Humans didn't just spawn directly from LCL. Simplest life evolved to complex gradually.

[orcot]

So all living orgasnisms (excepts the angels are lilin)

Where am I going with this? What is the added value to the story in this?
Shinji's decision (accepting/rejecting instumentality) makes sence from our perspective, however in universe Shinji is part of a greater enitity named lilin, making his decision questionable. Shinji doesn't really exist, Lilin does, and Shinji has given all those little souls the opportunity to escape and pretent their individuals eventough they are not, it's all Lilin. (Shinji=Gendo=Naoko=some random butterfly=...)

Does Shinji have/had a choice?
In the movie Shinji saves both Rei and his walkman, Shinji wasn't really aware of the choise being made here. So it is unfair to say he sacrified humanity, in fact Ritsuko was more at fault for not properly informing Shinji. Regardless a uninformed decision that caused a (reset) miracle...
At best this is fatalisme everything is predeterminend.

The miracle does not do well with the idea of avoiding escapisme.
Either he saves her and she is saved or he fails and she/they perish. It would have been brave I think if Anno simply killed Shinji at that point.

[Derantor]

however in universe Shinji is part of a greater enitity named lilin, making his decision questionable. Shinji doesn't really exist, Lilin does, and Shinji has given all those little souls the opportunity to escape and pretent their individuals eventough they are not, it's all Lilin.

Wrong. Israfel is one angel, two individuals. Iruel is one angel, countless individuals. Humanity is comprised of countless individuals who collectively form the 18th angel. Individuals do still exist. If a story about individuals doesn't feature individuals, it makes no sense.

@Berserker: Only humanity is referred to as "the Lilin". True, all life on earth is lilithic, but only humanity are Lilin.

[orcot]

Israfel could not be killed as long as it partner remainend intact the 2 where very definilltly linked they could also merge to a single entity, therefore it fails to be 2 individuals.
Ireul also fails because of it's evolution countless individuals would evolve in many different species. Lilin for example is both humans and wheat Individuals would quickly become many different specialized species some loving ozone some getting killed by ozone etc, therefore it again fails the test of being countless individuals.
(Ireul is in make up perhaps the most similar to lilin with the exception that Ireul is closer to the borg in that theirs no specialization).

If a story about individuals doesn't feature individuals, it makes no sense

But I wonder what narative purpose drove them to call humans a angel especialy in calling that Lilith's only has 1 child named lilin?
Also it sort of does if the creature is extremly lonely and escapes in a fantasy where it is many different things in stead of a single being. Big Scary Rei does show that lilin has the potential to merge to a single being that has somewhat of a core.

But this is getting more of a rant perhaps I should stop it. Altough if anyone know a decend reason why they made humanity a angel please do tell

[Berserker]

I know that both Kaworu and Misato referred humankind as Lilin. But i can't exactly agree with it as the word Lilin (リリン) means spawn of Lilith in Japanese and the fact that it's not logical.
Lilith spread LCL in seawater (medium) after she crashed. Simplest life formed in it which evolved into single cellular life which evolved into multi cellular into complex and so on. In that conclusion, humankind, specifically homo sapiens is most-likely the newest fruit of knowledge based life form on earth. Now, we're classifying humankind as Lilin but neglecting the whole animal kingdom, which share the same progenitor and came to life before human. They didn't come from a different seed. Our evolution path just differed, that's all. Then i must question, what are the rest of the livings get classified as? For what we know, they maybe even share the same guf. If not then it would be very illogical.
If humans were the one to pop out of LCL to existence before any other life form, somehow evolved backwards to the rest of the animal kingdom or if the rest of the livings were given another classification (which didn't happen and very unlikely will in final), then it would be somehow logical that only Humankind= Lilin.
I've shared my facts. Now it's you guys' choice whether to consider it as a plot hole or misunderstanding of us fans or to stay with the given "only humankind= Lilin" theory. No human is perfect, including Anno. Such mistake can happen, though NGE is almost perfect.

[Zusuchan]

Berserker:The "lilin" thing is a bit of a plot hole in that whether or not animals and plants also came from Lilith and if not, how did they get here is never really addressed-but the most logical explanation is that the plants and animals are just the natural habitants of the Earth-they were here before Lilith's arrival already. And since humans were the aftereffects of the LCL sea while the animals weren't, then therefore "humanity" can be referred correctly to as the 18th Angel. Whereas the non-Angelic animals can't. This idea basically exists on making stuff up through logic and the power of fanwank, but in my opinion, this makes sense and answers your question well.

orcot: What is humanity? Would you say that humanity is a collective entity? And that it fails to meet the standards of an individual? The answer to those last two questions is "yes". But because humanity is not an individual consciousness doesn't mean that humans aren't. Humanity is a collective entity, but not in the sense of a hivemind-it's a collective entity made up of humans, the individual members of a species. Humanity's dictionary definition is "the totality of human beings; the human race", after all. You and I are both members of humanity, but it would be ridiculous to assert we are not both individuals capable of our own thoughts and actions, wouldn't it?

Though I don't know about Israfel and Iruel largely because there's so little information about them presented in NGE, the lilin most definitely are individuals. A member of a species is an individual despite being a part of its species. There's no way around that. I like that you brought out the Borg-who are actual hiveminds and pretty accurate descriptions of what you seem to assume the lilin are in NGE, despite the fact they're literally humanity, except they originate from an alien instead of apes.

In terms of what the added value to the story is...I don't know exactly. I think the simplest explanation is that it answers some plot questions and makes a couple of things rounder and nicer than they would have otherwise been. It also makes the Angels far more "humane", in a way, since they're simply different versions of where humanity might conceivably have ended up and makes some of the imagery and themes associated to them therefore more accessible. (It's possible that the problems of miscommunication and hurting each other despite good or not bad intentions, but I don't know how truthful that is frankly-that's a viewpoint I (or anyone else who wants to) am/is going to have to think about some more.) The biggest thing is probably an easier way to make humanity into a hive consciousness, make Rei even more motherly than she already was to Shinji and add some very nice themes of regression to the womb. (The Third Impact scene in EoE reads like a really elaborate sex scene and is full of sexual metaphors, with No.1 being humanity regressing back towards their mother collectively-also note that Shinji enters GNR's body through a vagina-like third eye with Unit-01 hastened on a cross, which can look like a crude penis, after which they're accosted by dozens of bustling white Reis...)* The whole "return-to-the-womb" thing is a big thing in NGE (technically Shinji and Asuka are doing it every time they're in their Evas), as are mother-child relationships and the nice Oedipus complex.

So there are reasons for humanity being the 18th Angel and I'd say it does add to the overall story.

*Are there any threads about the sex metaphors present in the 3I scene of EoE that anybody knows of? Asking for some help here...

[Derantor]

Can we please stop having pointless arguments like these? It is explicitely stated that humans carry the fruit of knowledge. Not apes or amoebas but humans. Humanity is referred to as "the Lilin." The collective entity known as "the Lilin" is also the 18th angel. Yui does not say "All Lilin can return" - she says "All life [can return and has the heart to go on living]". Therefore, Lilin =/= "All life on earth". It does not matter if the naming scheme is illogical or not; it is what it is.

[Lavinius]

Berserker:The "lilin" thing is a bit of a plot hole in that whether or not animals and plants also came from Lilith and if not, how did they get here is never really addressed-but the most logical explanation is that the plants and animals are just the natural habitants of the Earth-they were here before Lilith's arrival already. And since humans were the aftereffects of the LCL sea while the animals weren't, then therefore "humanity" can be referred correctly to as the 18th Angel. Whereas the non-Angelic animals can't. This idea basically exists on making stuff up through logic and the power of fanwank, but in my opinion, this makes sense and answers your question well.

Lilith created all life on Earth. She arrived four billion years or so ago, with the Giant Impact that created the Moon, not four million years ago. LCL is equivalent to the primordial soup that generated all life, and when Instrumentality occurs, the life in the seas turns back to it as well. This is probably also the reason for Rei's vegetarianism- she'd prefer not to eat her own children. And as little as it's worth, the CI also explicitly states other life on Earth is descended from Lilith.

The criteria for what makes something count or not count as an Angel is pretty inscrutable, but given that every Angel is human, it seems that only humans count as Angels. There isn't anything more to it than that.

[Berserker]

This is probably also the reason for Rei's vegetarianism- she'd prefer not to eat her own children.

Rei doesn't have a single memory of Lilith whatsoever until all the parts of Lilith's soul appended together. So that's not the cause.
The rest i agree with you and already explained.

[Zusuchan]

Lavinius: Ah, thanks. I'm not that in-depth on NGE's lore as I'd like, so help and clarifications like these are greatly appreciated.

[Lavinius]

Rei doesn't have a single memory of Lilith whatsoever until all the parts of Lilith's soul appended together. So that's not the cause.

I mean it's an unconcious thing, not a conscious one.

[orcot]

reason for Rei's vegetarianism- she'd prefer not to eat her own children

Rei is a vegetarian for sure, but if all life is her child it seems sort of racist to only consume plant life. A more obious choice would be living of LCL, milk, honey unfertilized eggs, fruits, etc. (hey it's more diverse then steve jobs diet)

I like to think Rei is a vegetarian because she likes to protect all life. Theirs also the way we treat other animals that can best be described as well, a horror beyond their comprehension.

Also she is difficult, weird and ultimatly means well

[Blockio]

orcot what the fuck are you talking about

[orcot]

@blockio
I assume the last post?

I'm saying that Rei is probably not a vegetarian because she does not want to comsume parts of lilin. Plants have as much of a soul as animals (afther third impact their seems to be a clear lack of plantlife).
She could have eaten different things, milks is a animal byproduct that doesn't harm the creature, fruits are bribes to spread seeds etc so they are okay to eat.
Most of the examples I gave are of what poison ivy (batman) eats. This is a fictional character Steve jobs is a (dead) real figure who at times only eat fruit, he also stated that he felt euphoria if he did not eat for a long time... the point being it could have been done more healthy then that.

And I prefer Rei's answer that she does not like the taste of it (meat).
If this does not answer your question then be more specific

[Blockio]

Well, but why doesn't she like the taste of meat? I'd argue that Lav is correct here, the reason that she doesn't is that somewhere in her subconscious, she knows that these are her children

[IgRAzm]

I like all the small details that make Rei look more like a human being and see this one as just one of those. Similarly, there is her dislike of red - when red is her eye color - we can extrapolate what she on some level dislikes the fact she is different from normal people. Or she dislikes blood and red reminds her of it. But these are just assumptions. It seems more fitting this way, that it's unconfirmed. Smarter this way. Rei struggles at understanding her feelings. If we were trying to connect with her better, it would be useless to know why she feels this way when she herself doesn't. I don't think she even saw a point in understanding why she feels this way and not other way, not until early on in the series. Does her dislike of meat have anything to do with her inhuman soul? I dunno, because nobody seemed to ask her. However her personality is formed, until she came in contact with others it had no meaning to her. What had more influence on her personality? Gendo? Shinji? Her soul? I don't think she figured these things out, she died too early. And she got more important things to worry about, she thought, I believe, with the scenario and all.
Anyway, if it is too confusing what I was trying to say above - I think my reason - how confused she is about her feelings while also being a human being just like everyone else - is why it really was put in. It's not too unusual to dislike meat, the point is she has preferences and that's a fact. With the way she was raised I think she might've prefered to have no preferences (no pun intended). But she has to deal with the fact she is a human, and one with very little in terms of actual life experience at that. When she dies, she admits to herself that she loves Shinji, and that's at the core not that functionally different; it's just human.

[dzzthink]

I think Rei's diet is to do with the fact that Anno himself is a vegetarian. Its nice to see a healthy diet every now and then and Rei sets an example for us to all to eat healthier. Technically, Rei mostly takes pills as her main source of nutrition (her biology is odd and not really human). The word angels is a vague term; they dont have wings and play harps but are just beings or monsters descended from the same tree of life. Lillin being an angel is maybe symbolic in that humans are not too different from hideous monsters that want to wipe out humanity since that was seeles goal, sort of? It also plays on the idea of natural selection of the species, where a separate entity replaces our role as stewards on this earth. Think of it as like a battle of the angels, where we are contending for survival. Im not suggesting these concepts are thematic in any way, other than to introduce some philosophy, much like the christian symbolism in the series.