Asuka isn't Justified

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

@Tines and Urses Arctos I didn’t understand 14-year-olds’ hormones and sex drive when I was 14, and I understand it even less now. Who in God’s Name knows why Asuka and Shinji feel the feelings they do about each other.

[kuribo-04]

∆ Opposites attract each other and that sort of stuff.

[Mr. Tines]

I actually wonder why Shinji would be interested in Asuka in the first place.

A good-looking and somewhat exotic girl around the house? Definite side-dish material; but with that abrasive personality, really no more.

Shinji and Rei aren't any better.

Episode 6 makes a better case for Shinji having interest in Rei than anything else does with anyone else. I'm still disappointed that that strand turned into a dead end or, at best, a deliberate twist on the "brash interloper only causes a temporary set-back" storyline, in the same way that other anime standards got subverted (e.g the walking in on a girl changing incident).

[UrsusArctos]

Episode 6 makes a better case for Shinji having interest in Rei than anything else does with anyone else. I'm still disappointed that that strand turned into a dead end or, at best, a deliberate twist on the "brash interloper only causes a temporary set-back" storyline, in the same way that other anime standards got subverted (e.g the walking in on a girl changing incident).

Episode 06 also shows a side of Rei that Shinji would be pretty uncomfortable with - her appalling living conditions and somewhat disconnected behavior, and Rei's proximity to Gendo. In light of her lack of character development afterwards, I don't think Shinji would get romantically interested in her. The initial subconscious connection with his mother and sympathy for his fellow Eva pilot aside, any romantic sparks that were kindled when Shinji got Rei to smile wouldn't have lasted, any more than with having the exotic but abrasive Asuka at Shinji's side.

Funny I actually typed that out...eleven years ago I shared your feelings about Episode 06 and was holding out for Shinji and Rei to get together romantically in some form, and then I started to favor Shinji and Asuka, and now I think that neither girl works romantically.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

now I think that neither girl works romantically.

That's kinda one of the pillars to the whole point of the show.

[UrsusArctos]

That's kinda one of the pillars to the whole point of the show.

Depends on how you interpret that. Eva is a work with more interpretations than you can shake a Spear of Longinus at, and you'd have to do a whole lot of shaking to keep them shippers off yer back!

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

^ While interpretations of the show itself that involve actively shipping the characters are certainly things that exist, I think they misread how Evangelion presents human character development throughout the show. The show explicitly and blatantly piles so many psychological issues upon all of its characters that and honest reading of the show would make it implausible for all of these issues would be solved if one of the characters simply got a significant other.

I’m not saying that shippers are bad mind you. It is rather fun to imagine how different characters would behave in a healthy relationship with one another. But it’s important to separate the fun of shipping with the messages in Evangelion. I do think that interpreting the show in a way that concludes that Shinji would be happy and healthy with anybody in the emotional and psychological states as depicted in the show ignores the troubles of the characters that the show actively tries to revisit and explore.

[zlink64]

“, I don't get how there are people who are able to ship her with Shinji, demanding that he is a bad person who never responded to her calls for help.”


You realize that essentially the status quo of their relationship from the very begging albeit a less dramatic version. Asuka finds out Shinji is into her by the end of the dancing episode and after that he never makes a move despite his boldness in that episode then when ever she initiates, he acts like an idiot( idiot from straight guy POV u can call it something else if you want. But idiot is pretty accurate imo). This whole dynamic plus their rivalry/ emo issues fester up into your quote above after all the big events. I wouldn’t call him a bad person and I suspect you are being over dramatic with the amount comments you’ve seen actually calling him a bad person. At the very least for the reason you claim above.

[StrokeMeGoat]

I have to ask, how often are people actually justified in their actions, and who gets to determine that? Typically the younger a person is, the less justified their actions appear to be when taken into consideration--especially those young people who have undergone a greater than average number of traumatic experiences in their life. It seems kind of silly, maybe even unjustifiable ( ) to judge whether or not the actions of two people in their position were actually justifiable.

I mean, a major recurring motif in the series is the Hedgehog's Dilemma, wherein the closer two people get when interacting with one another, the more they hurt each other with their pointy quills (emotional and psychological baggage, values, belief systems, etc.). I think whether or not somebody's actions are justified are so inherently subjective as judgments that there's little to no point in actually considering how justified Asuka and Shinji were in how they treated one another (or any of the other cast, for that matter). When seriously taking into account where each of the characters is coming from when deciding to act a certain way, they're all justifiable in a way, and from all other perspectives infinitely just as unjustified. Is there any point in trying to hold them accountable, knowing that?

[SawItAtAge10]

I do think that interpreting the show in a way that concludes that Shinji would be happy and healthy with anybody in the emotional and psychological states as depicted in the show ignores the troubles of the characters that the show actively tries to revisit and explore.

It could work, potentially with Asuka, maybe Mari? (I feel like Rei is completely off limits given her connection to Yui and Lilith, same with Kaworu given his connection to Adam). BUT, the story would have to delve in hard into resolving those issues first from both Shinji and whomever he ended up with.

[Zoop]

Like pretty much having to make a 180, that's why it wouldn't happen.
That's what fanfics and spinoffs are for, usually they rewrite big portions of their progress simply to make it work.
But in NGE and NTE? Nah, story isn't about that.

[Shinichir0]

The answer to this question is: yes, but virtually no one's behavior in Eva is justified. And justified at the same time.

First of all, Asuka's arrogance, narcissism, and selfishness are projections of her fake confidence, which she enforces on others to ensure that they won't abandon her, because of how good and perfect she is.

Second of all, Shinji's humbleness, shyness, and obedience are also projections of his fake demeanor, which he puts on to ensure that others won't abandon him, because he's so responsive.

Both pilot the Eva with those masks on, and the Eva is the way for both to feel needed and important. Both are "bad" people, because they use others to feel better about themselves. This is explained in episodes 25 and 26.

It's hard to evaluate whose past was more difficult, that matter is subjective, but Asuka seems to have more prominent emotional traumas overall.

Asuka didn't really underestimate Shinji, she was afraid of him besting her, the reason for which I explained above. Moreover, I think she saw herself in his facade, and tried to force him to drop it. I wouldn't say that calling out Shinji on his idiotic behavior is "mistreatment". In EoE's dream kitchen scene, she does exactly that, and Shinji is furious, because he knows she's right about him.

Nobody expects Shinji to empathize with her. But stating that you have no responsibility for others' problems contradicts the show's entire message. Take care of yourself. I need you. Yes, you should try and take care of your personal problems yourself, you can't depend on others there. But you need people, you need to try and connect to them, you need to try and understand each other. The main cast avoided that, and thus came their suffering.

[Sailor Star Dust]

(With grave apologies to SSD and all the LAS-shippers out there)

Hah, I chuckled.

I didn't read the other responses since I'm directly responding to this post (sorry!) but in general I tend to view things this way. The literal last scene of EoE, where Asuka finally!! shows genuine compassion towards Shinji and he emotionally breaks down, despite the bitter elements surrounding that sequence, that's where the capacity for positive change and growth between themselves and each other can begin happening.

But, it's just like with humanity reemerging from the LCL Sea as their individual consciousness—we simply don't know what will happen from here on out.

Asuka and Shinji being only 14, it's hard to say if these two will "get their shit together" for themselves, let alone each other. But the very human, "they're alive and that's the main thing" tone to the somber final scene...I'd say that's rather telling, you know? They have the rest of their lives to work things out. (Forever agreeing with AnonymousEvaFan's old point how the "divinity trinity" Yui / Lilith / Adam wouldn't simply up and leave Shinji and company on an utterly devastated Earth.)

[kuribo-04]

(Forever agreeing with AnonymousEvaFan's old point how the "divinity trinity" Yui / Lilith / Adam wouldn't simply up and leave Shinji and company on an utterly devastated Earth.)

Ooh I like this. Good point.

[chee]

Of course she's not justified, neither is Shinji. They're mentally sick kids who are bad at life. That's the point

[Blockio]

That same thing can be applied to pretty much anyone in the show tbh. Humans are flawed, just because you have a reason to do something doesn't mean it's okay; it's your job as one of those humans to come to terms with that and make the best of it.
Very motivational, in a weird, bittersweet way.

[Derantor]

Asuka and Shinji being only 14, it's hard to say if these two will "get their shit together" for themselves, let alone each other. But the very human, "they're alive and that's the main thing" tone to the somber final scene...I'd say that's rather telling, you know? They have the rest of their lives to work things out.

Why would they? EoE makes it pretty clear that any attraction between them is at best one sided and in any case just a selfish immature cry for help to shift responsibility for betterment onto another person. Asuka doesn't love Shinji, she wants to possess him. Thats the only clue we get, otherwise her motivations regarding him remain completely ambiguous. Her line "I'd rather die than be with you" is also rather telling.

Shinji comes back because he suffered slightly less on earth than in instrumentality, knowing full well that he will be betrayed again (and not knowing that earth is now a desolate wasteland - where survival is possible but not guaranteed). He doesn't want to change, he has resigned himself to suffer slightly longer because it's still better than death (or rather, the almost-death of instrumentality). He has accepted who he is, he states that outright. He also thinks he's at fault for everything since "He misunderstood from the very beginning" (even though he didn't. Everybody truly did use him, nobody cared for him enough to make a difference, Asuka outright hates him and Kaworu is a lie. He has some kind of friendship with Toji and Kensuke (one of whom he "killed", the other being deeply disappointed because he's such a coward)) and now the burden for change lies solely on his shoulders, because relying on others for that is using them for selfish reasons/just another dependency. He also learned that being nice to others is just a trick to get them to care about you. He rejects Reis and Kaworus lines ("The hope that people can one day understand each other/ the words "I love you") as a self-serving lie, another delusion.

So, why would he change at all? For the better, on top of that? What can he possibly hope to gain? Why would he feel entitled to have anything positive happening to him? Even if it did, how could he feel positive about that and not guilty? If anything, he is set out to become just as nihilistic as his creator.

where Asuka finally!! shows genuine compassion towards Shinji

Does she, though? "I'd rather die than be with you" -> Choking scene -> touching him ("Is this actually happening?"/"I've seen how this guy ticks, I know how to stop him/cause him the most pain: By pretending to be nice.") -> "I feel sick", after looking directly at him. Without the kimochi warui, I'd agree with you, but thats the final line, the most important statement. The point of it all: Life is sickening. Like with everything Evangelion, any hope or positivity is smothered underneath a mountain of pessimism.

[Robowang]

I like to watch with subtitles off, so I always thought the last line was "Harder."

Just kidding.

[Blockio]

I like to watch with subtitles off, so I always thought the last line was "Harder."

Just kidding.

...what

[Robowang]

...what

It's a choking meme. Nevermind.

I just watched episode 22 and something occurred to me that I've never heard anyone mention before.

When Asuka drains the bathwater and says "I'm not going to use the same water Misato and Idiot Shinji bathed in," she precedes that with, "Disgusting."
Then when she's reformed from the LCL "water" in EoE, she says the same thing (or close equivilent). I wonder if there's any intended connection there.