Waking Up from Instrumentality

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Waking Up from Instrumentality

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Postby Tumbling Down » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:35 am

I've been thinking lately about how someone "wakes up" from Instrumentality, and why Shinji and Asuka were the first two people to do so, respectively. I do think of it as similar to waking up from a sleep. Specifically, the most relaxing sleep that has ever been slept.

I don't think Shinji woke up the same way Asuka did. He wasn't really in Instrumentality, at least not for long. My interpretation of what happens in the film is that Rei puts Shinji in for just long enough to get a taste, and then asks how he feels. Several times. Because her only purpose at this point in the story is to make Shinji happy. which is normal dream waifu behavior and not at all unsettling.

This leaves the question of why Asuka woke up. My most simple way of looking at it is that she had unfinished business. But there were millions of people left on Earth, if not at least a billion. How many of them had unfinished business when they died?

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Postby NemZ » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:50 am

My personal headcanon is that Shinji was going crazy in his isolation and guilt while the rest of the post-human race was content to not exist, and so Rei forced Asuka out of the soup ocean so he'd have company. Neither really wanted this outcome.
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Postby Tumbling Down » Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:01 am

That is hilarious. I like it.

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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:42 am

NemZ Highly unlikely due to contradicting what the film tells us, renders everything up to that point moot, and is very uncharateristic of Anno
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Re: Waking Up from Instrumentality

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Postby Chuckman » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:35 am

NemZ has it backwards. Shinji failed to cross the abyss and was shepherded back to existence by Rei. Asuka returned out of sheer spite but also failed the test of ego death.

I used to take the view that she triumphantly reasserted herself out of sheer willpower. Now I'm not so sure. It can be read that way but it is more in keeping with Eva's roots of these two fucked up peole were the only ones among the cast of the show who couldn't stand joining the gestalt being.
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Re: Waking Up from Instrumentality

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Postby Reichu » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:50 am

Chuck, you sadden me to cartoony waterfall tears by mistaking one of NemZ's posts for one of mine. The two of us are nothing alike! Please fix that misattribution, if you would.
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Postby NemZ » Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:55 am

View Original PostArcadia's legacy wrote:NemZ Highly unlikely due to contradicting what the film tells us, renders everything up to that point moot, and is very uncharateristic of Anno


EoE is not a story of triumph, even on a personal scale. Shinji hits rock bottom, abuses Asuka, refuses to fight to save himself or anyone else, decides the world can go fuck itself for entirely selfish reasons, lashes out at the ghosts of people he wronged in abandoning them even as they fought for his worthless ass, turns away from instrumentality because it isn't what he wants, and then is left alone in the ruins of a world his stupidity burned to dust. Upon meeting another person for the first time in who knows how long his first impulse is murder her out of sheer madness, unfinished business, or possibly to spare her the hell of this existence, but he can't even do that right. ~Fin.

How the hell you got something uplifting out of that film is a true mystery to me. I mean the only even vaguely optimistic bit comes from Yui and really that can be read more as finding contentment in lowering your expectations, and what's more she says this while she's in the process of getting the hell off this wasted planet, presumably to go play supermom to a different species with a fresh slate. The final words of an estranged mother to her only child before ditching him in a nightmare wasteland is effectively "Well good luck with that, but I'm out."
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Re: Waking Up from Instrumentality

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Postby Reichu » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:27 am

Given this is art and all, of course it is subjective and personal. You, NemZ, are viewing it through the lens of a misanthropist and getting something much different from what was probably intended, while not caring if you do. If you treat the film more along the lines of, well, art therapy for someone struggling with terrible depression, the oft-cited uplifting aspects may come through more readily.* Neither is "wrong", but it's useful for the sake of conversation to delineate the parameters of analysis being used. I suspect a lot of sprawling and misunderstanding occurs because many assume by default that author's intent is a good baseline to use for figuring out WTH is going on, while select others (guess who!) roll with the authorial intent being completely unimportant. It might not hurt to elaborate what you're doing up-front now and again, NemZy-poo. :wink:

* I mean, consider: depression turns everything to shit. No matter how beautiful and plentiful a world you may exist within, it doesn't matter if you're incapable of appreciating it. From that perspective, being capable of happiness but living in a wasteland is substantially better than living in paradise but wanting nothing more than to be dead. Yui's philosophy may sound empty to you, but for those with certain existential struggles they are extremely uplifting. That bizarro final scene can be hard to parse, naturally. In part I view it as fulfillment of the promise that A.T. Fields will hurt people again, represented viscerally and without compromise. Ultimately there's so much going on there that it would be mistake to treat it simply as a downer ending with naught else to say.
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Re: Waking Up from Instrumentality

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Postby robersora » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:07 am

View Original PostTumbling Down wrote: I do think of it as similar to waking up from a sleep. Specifically, the most relaxing sleep that has ever been slept.


I always thought it must feel like a never-ending roller coaster ride coming to a stop - given that both of them just lie there and the only words spoken are "kimochi warui"
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Postby Director Black » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:37 pm

Remember that Yui said that people can return to their bodies if they choose two...in this case, to learn to love and accept themselves. Waking up means not being a coward to stop all your troubles and facing the world as it is. I turn to the poster where Asuka and Shinji are looking at Rei's head in the distance. Though we can't see their faces, we can feel that they're looking over at their whole journey together and alone, and realizing that while life will take a long time to get better, it will never be the way they want to: perfect.
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Postby NemZ » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:05 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:It might not hurt to elaborate what you're doing up-front now and again, NemZy-poo. :wink:


I did label it "my personal headcanon", what more do you want?
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Re: Waking Up from Instrumentality

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Postby Reichu » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:40 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:I did label it "my personal headcanon", what more do you want?

Good point! Sorry about that. :sweatdrop:
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Postby Bagheera » Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:09 pm

View Original PostChuckman wrote:NemZ has it backwards. Shinji failed to cross the abyss and was shepherded back to existence by Rei. Asuka returned out of sheer spite but also failed the test of ego death.

I used to take the view that she triumphantly reasserted herself out of sheer willpower. Now I'm not so sure. It can be read that way but it is more in keeping with Eva's roots of these two fucked up peole were the only ones among the cast of the show who couldn't stand joining the gestalt being.


Only issue I have with that is that Asuka would have died from her injuries if she wasn't tanged, and I didn't get the impression joining the gestalt being was optional. I mean, is a 14-year-old Eva pilot really the best the planet can offer in terms of stubbornness?

But apart from that I've never understood why this is even a question, since the movie tells us in detail how the whole process works in the previous scene. Second guessing that and assuming that one or both are special cases doesn't make sense to me in light of what we're directly told in the film.
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Postby Director Black » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:57 pm

^ Most people are thinking about the multitude of ideas and plot points Eva comes across, that they either miss it - most likely because a lot of plot points are either implied (It's obvious that Kaji was killed by an agent of SEELE, why else would he have been shot just as he freed Fuyutski in Episode 21 and gave Misato the flashdrive at the end of episode 20) or, in this case, talked over in an epic scale.
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Postby Geometer » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:37 pm

I've always assumed that Shinji being in charge of instrumentally gets to go out first simply by making it possible. Asuka follows because she can't stand being in it. After being brutally murdered, having all her fears and insecurities shown to everyone isn't exactly what she wants. Before she was killed she just realized that she still wanted to live, so I don't find it too surprising that she is one of the first persons to assert her own existence. Its possible that there are thousands or millions of people waking up around this time all over earth. Shinji and Asuka are just doomed to be together when people start coming back by fate.

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Postby sephirotic » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:56 pm

We can't assume Asuka was one of the first to redefine her Ego at all.
And I don't even buy into the theory that several days had passed in the "One more final" just because of the rust in the nail that is SUPPOSEDLY in Misato's cross. and no one had returned yet simply because it isn't shown. I think that particular scene is mostly symbolical and a character exposition than anything else.

What I think is more interesting to discuss however, is that: whom of the characters would ever come back and why?
(I don't know if this deserve its own thread, let the mods decide if anyone actually responds)

Misato: Despite her ambivalent emotions towards life, her actions and attitude in the last months, even tough demonstrating a serious preocupation and a mourn towards the loss of Kaji, showed a person that still wanted to fight for life and with a very strong self-will. I think she would DEFINITELY return. But then again, the cross in a thumbstone in the One More Final may suggest Misato was dead for good symbolically by Anno. I personally don't think so, tough.

Gendou: A first more shallow reading of the movie would result in a clear NO, but then again, Knowing that Yui would forever immortal inside Unit 01 may give Gendou a chance to bring another crazy plan of merging with an Eva and departing off looking for her. A more optimistical reading of Gendou apologizing through Shinji, may suggest that he understood his immaturity and that could give him some hope to try and improve himself as a person and move on Yui. He is not that old, in an optimistic scenario, I think there is a possibility that he may want to try and find happiness once more as a human.

Hyuga: See Maya. Tough he looked mentally healthy enough to decide to come back.

Kensuke Touji and Hikari. All of them are probably damage kids due to being orphan, although all of them seem to be relatively healthy enough to want to keep on living. Touji, would definetely not want to leave his sister behind, the interesting question regarding Touji is if he would return with his leg or not? I believe he would, because it takes some time for one to get accustomed to a lost limb, his self image may still be of a non amputee.

Ritsuko: No, she was miserable and in her last moments realized how her life was empty and the men she was sleeping with her was only using her.

Maya: This is an interesting one: Could Maya know that Ritsuko was not going to return? If so, was she obsessed and in love enough with her senpai to actually not want to go back to the world Ritsuko doesn't exist anymore? And an even more interesting discussion: Could the humans that decided not to return remain to exist in Earth's sea or would they boundless souls simply dissipate away?
Conversely: Dead bodies retain their souls. For how long are the souls salvageable? Would Kaji's body, if not incinerated, enter the instrumentality? Of course this is stretching the fictional physics of Eva, but I dare to say that the more logical answer is YES, but if Anno could choose to not bring Kaji back he would NOT DO SO. However, would Kaji want to Return if he could? We don't know well enough about his psyche (lets disregard the manga, here), did he allow himself being killed out of irresponsability, or because he was giving in? If we can answer this question, we would answer if he would return or not. I personally have the feeling is actually the formen, then YES.

Bonus: Naoko.
Yes, I know Naoko wasn't actually inside the Magi, but supposing she was, and Realizing Rei 1 wasn't actually dead and she wasn't really a murderer (although theoretically, she didn't know that and saw herself being incapable of suppressing the darkness within herself) would she choose to Return? What you guys think?
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Postby Geometer » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:15 pm

^
I would lean yes for Maya and Kaji, but no for Naoko. Maya didn't seem too obsessed with Ritsuko, we don't have a lot of information but she seems a pretty positive and compassionate person. Kaji may have been depressed about how everything was turning out in his life and/or the state of the world, but he seems like the person who would take a second shot at life if he given the chance through eva magic. Naoko wouldn't have very much to live for it seems and doesn't seem like the person who would will through it and try to find new meaning.

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Postby Director Black » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:19 pm

View Original Postsephirotic wrote:the cross in a thumbstone in the One More Final may suggest Misato was dead for good symbolically by Anno. I personally don't think so, tough.


I've always seen that as Shinji putting up the cross to remember the real Misato; not the one that phoned in her persona to make herself likable as a surrogate mother, but one who stood up to Shinji and saved him when his life was in danger.

I've always thought about Fuyutski...from seeing Rei as Yui take him into Instrumentality, he looked at peace. Maybe it was because of his long-time crush on Yui, but it's always open that he felt his life was fully lived. He is, after all, a character that has few problems that he's dealing with.
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Postby sephirotic » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:26 am

Ah, yes. Fuyutsuki.

I think Fuyutsuki probably moved over Yui but ultimately still wanted to join with her in instrumentality. Being an old man, I'd imagine it'd be difficult to find new aspirations for a complete restart. But then again, I don't think "making sense to continue to live", or simply "being happy" is the main factor in being able to restore the human form, tough I admit my previous post may have suggested that.

I think the main factor, as explained by Rei is: "If people can imagine in their own hearts then they can restore their human form" (remembering that "heart" is an ambiguos term in Japanese and also encompass mind, feelings and even soul). I think this then has much more to do with a strong-willed person, with a well established ego and identity. Of course, being depressed makes one blur all this things in the end. That being said, Fuyutsuki may have been a person mostly in peace with himself, but precisely because of that, his sense of self and individuality, and probably low aspirations a will toward continuing living would ultimately made him not redefining his individuality. I actually think Fuyutsuki WOULDN'T COME BACK. I have been watching my grandmother getting tired and losing her will to live slowly after she recoverd from a cancer at the age of 90, this gave me a lot of insight recently how old people sees their future and face their ever closing end.

When I thought about Maya wanting to come back, I was thinking that maybe she wanted to remain united with Ritsuko if the souls could continue to exist for a long time in Earth's ocean. Another interesting aspect in this is, would Maya still have her platonic admiration for Ritsuko once she completely find out all the dark sides of her mind? How she conspired to end humanity, how she slept with the same man that slept with her mother, how she ultimately hated herself, how she wanted to Kill Rei out of jealously, and ultimately how she tried to Kill not only Gendou, but all of people on Nerv? From my personal experience with friends falling in love as teenagers later to realize the object of their passion are just an idealization of their minds and that the real person was rotten, I think Maya would lose her affection for Ritsuko almost instantly and decide to return to life alone.
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Postby Tumbling Down » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:43 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:EoE is not a story of triumph, even on a personal scale. Shinji hits rock bottom, abuses Asuka, refuses to fight to save himself or anyone else, decides the world can go fuck itself for entirely selfish reasons, lashes out at the ghosts of people he wronged in abandoning them even as they fought for his worthless ass, turns away from instrumentality because it isn't what he wants, and then is left alone in the ruins of a world his stupidity burned to dust. Upon meeting another person for the first time in who knows how long his first impulse is murder her out of sheer madness, unfinished business, or possibly to spare her the hell of this existence, but he can't even do that right. ~Fin.

Your description is mostly accurate, but I still say EoE is a story of triumph. A painfully honest story of triumph, but still a story of triumph.

See, life is a never-ending struggle, and just when you think you're at your lowest point, you're going to realize that the worst has yet to come. But there's always a speck of hope buried underneath all that despair, and if you can find that speck of hope, then you can make life worth living. That's what Shinji learns, and that's what the audience learns.. or rather, is reminded of, since their ability to watch the movie means they haven't committed suicide yet, which means they probably realized there's hope.

View Original PostNemZ wrote:How the hell you got something uplifting out of that film is a true mystery to me. I mean the only even vaguely optimistic bit comes from Yui and really that can be read more as finding contentment in lowering your expectations, and what's more she says this while she's in the process of getting the hell off this wasted planet, presumably to go play supermom to a different species with a fresh slate. The final words of an estranged mother to her only child before ditching him in a nightmare wasteland is effectively "Well good luck with that, but I'm out."

It's not like she was going anywhere better. The impression I got is that she's literally going to float out in space forever as a testament to humanity's existence. She has no reason to believe that she'll ever encounter any other lifeforms or that they would have any means of reaching her. I mean, that's what I assume. We don't really know what she knows. We only know what we know. And I didn't know about the First Ancestral Race until reading the wiki.

I guess if you assume she knows more than the audience, it is possible to interpret her final message as a "lol, good luck, I'm outta here" instead of her sincere belief.


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