The importance of the setting lore and story in NGE

[Javik]

So most people would argue that the main focus of Eva is the characters and ultimately the message is related to communication and escapism which is explored mainly through the relations of the characters with each other and their inner traumas and related backstories.

But it's also undeniable that there was lots of effort put into the whole story filled with occult leaders, ancient aliens, crazy scientists and sentient penguins. Even if as Tsurumaki said the religious elements which inspired the setting aren't there to deliver a christian message there's still a whole amount of work put into it and it's all suprisingly consistent. In our modern internet era almost nothing is obscure, but when the creators were working on the show it was the pre-html era. They actually had to go to a library or contact someone who's knowledgable on the subject. It also seems they were pretty thorough, because let's be honest, not everyone knows what the sephirot and the tree of life is and defintely not everyone has heard about the chamber of guf, Lilith or knows who the Essenes were. Despite the fact that now we can just type those terms into google most people still haven't heard of them. Then they had to tie this into a multi-layered conspiracy, relate the mystical concepts to sci-fi tech etc.

On top of that a big amount of work is dedicated to how the story is told. The narrative isn't straight-forward, it's complex enough if you summarized it in a text that blatantly spelled everything out but the creators decided to go with a puzzle-like form of exposition, leave just hints of information at different points of the story and put forward some of the information in the form of pure visuals. This is pretty hard to do and while after Eva it became a bit more popular form of narration in anime with works like Lain, Utena, Star Driver and the other works of those creators before it wasn't as much maybe besides Angel's Egg (though it's more of a "thematic" not a narrative puzzle and Key the Metal Idol (where everything is explained at the end in a very straight forward manner anyway).

So after this overly long introdoction I have two main questions.
1. How important would you say is the the story, mystery and lore of eva. We know there was lots of effort put into it, but was it just because Anno is a geek so he likes those kinds of stories (Space Odyssey, Ideon)? Is it something they wanted the viewer to focus on just as eagerly as on the message and themes?
2. How is the form of narration important? By which I mean the puzzle-ness of the plot. Is the confusion supposed to put us in Shinji's shoes? It doesn't really seem so, because Shinji is confused more about himself and doesn't really search for answers around the mysteries of the world surrounding him.
3. How does the story and lore relate to the main message and themes of the story?

[CommanderFish]

1. I've thought about this a lot, and I think the story/lore of the series adds a number of aspects to eva as a whole. For one, the FAR backstory really creates this feeling of a near-omnipotent power hovering over the entire show. The angels, too, are on a level of existence seemingly quite far from humanity; albeit they are obviously not all-powerful, or else they wouldn't get killed. Knowing that there are aspects of reality you wouldn't even be capable of understanding if you tried is a pretty freakin' scary thing. But I think the key in Evangelion is that, the FAR, angels, and the lilim are ALL classified as humans. And I'm pretty sure the part of all of these lifeforms that is fundamentally human is the soul.

I mean, think about it: Rei's soul is the soul of Lilith--an organism with abilities that surpass dimensions (Chamber of Guf, and all). Yet, Lilith's soul is perfectly compatible with Rei's human-clone body (well, not perfectly--there are a few personality quirks--but the point is is that the body didn't reject it or anything). The same goes the opposite direction with Yui and Unit 01. Yui is but a wee human, and yet her soul is compatible with the clone of a super-being. So, even though the lilim are far from understanding the FAR's level of consciousness, these facts imply that it is within the realm of reality for them to get to that point eventually, assumably after countless years of evolution. Based on the fact that the FAR took the time to send seeds of life all across the galaxy, you'd think that they expect their protege to do the same, in order to guarantee the existence of life for as long as they possibly could. Otherwise, what would be the point of sending the seeds out in the first place? In other words, the FAR seem to have high expectations, but give little support along the way (which is sort of like a certain father/son relationship you may know of).

In my opinion, the lore/larger story of Evangelion coincides very well with the development of all the characters. Eva is often referred to as a coming-of-age story, and becoming an adult (to my knowledge at least; I'm only 16), means living up to certain expectations that are set for you. Just as Shinji has to live up to the expectations of those close to him (at least, to be happy he does), humanity has to live up to the expectations that the FAR have set for them. This metaphorical connection between Shinji and all of humanity gives all the more sense to instrumentality in EoE, when Shinji has to make a decision for the future of all of humanity. That being said, I know that growing up also means that you must accept that you will inevitably hurt the ones you love, and that they will inevitably hurt you too. On humanity's quest for survival (and subsequent adaptation), there are setbacks, obstacles, and other discouraging things which will also inevitably happen. Evangelion addresses both of these facts: one by showing how Shinji's difficulties in interacting with those around him, and the other by showing the difficulties involved with each angel attack (and these often overlap within the series, e.g. Leliel, Zeruel, and Kaworu especially).

SO, with all that in regard, I would say that eva's lore/story is pretty damn important to it's overall meaning, or at least helps reinforce it. I don't know if any of that made any sense, or conversely if it was just common knowledge around these parts--but ya, there's my answer.


2. Well, for the sake of the actual plot, it sort of makes sense as to why everything is so convoluted and hidden. SEELE and Nerv simply don't want people to know about ancient aliens, hidden alien technology, and plans to revert the entire world into tang based on the research of that alien technology. If the audience was able to figure out all of the hidden plot with ease during their first viewing, I feel like it would sort of diminish any sense of unknowing-fear that SEELE may otherwise inflict upon the viewer. I mean, they're this foreboding collection of big black monoliths that speak in only ominous lines; I'm pretty sure they're designed to be somewhat intimidating.

But I think this is where all the religious stuff fits in. All the crosses, all the Christian names, the way that the Instrumentality committee often spoke as if they were reading off Bible passages; I believe all of this stuff is there to invoke feelings of a godly presence, which (tying back to my original point), makes it feel as if there is an omnipotent force present throughout the entire show. Just showing a cross may create a feeling within the viewer of an over-the-shoulder, supreme power which would otherwise require a detailed explanation of the FAR, the seeds of life, Adam and Lilith, the Lance of Longinus, etc. But instead, simply naming these things as such immediately implies a supreme power, one which has still yet to reach a consensus in terms of how it should be conceived: God.

And as to why the plot is so complex itself; well, life is complex. I prefer to just look at it like that. Though, I suppose you could analyze why this is in a far more detailed manner; but since I already basically wrote an essay I'll just leave it at that for now.

[Mr. Tines]

The importance is that there is enough there to provide the impression of depth, of actors behind the scenes, and that the grown-ups are dealing with something even more earth-shattering than the hum-drum Fungi from Outer Space that the kids are there to keep at bay. We're given enough hints (assuming a reasonable amount of background familiarity with SFnal tropes) that we can see the broad shape of what is going on, without it having to be spelled out in tedious detail and infodumping.

I tend to step back from those places where the various jigsaw pieces provided for "What the hell is really going on" have to be forced into fitting. Putting the pieces together to reveal the characters is more important, and more consistently done, than many of the gap-filling Discussion forum topics.

[Director Black]

Most people tend to ignore Eva's story because they say it's cobbled together. To some extent, it is. Anno has said that he pretty much improvised the show when Gainax was having early money problems.

But while I do think the characters are the main point of EVA, I simply love how it created an entire mythology, religion for the use of a better word, and combined it with the character's psychology. Even if the story of Eva is a bit of a mess, you can't deny how epic the whole thing is.

Overall though, the story for the most part doesn't relate to the characters, but is there as a means of expanding why everything's happening.

[CommanderFish]

Anno has said that he pretty much improvised the show when Gainax was having early money problems.

I always forget about that. It's odd though; despite Anno having said this, quantum Rei was present during the very first episode. And this was not addressed until EoE, an entire two years later. I'm tempted to say that Anno actually had most of the larger story written out beforehand, and what he actually improvised was the specific journey's of all the characters (basically their development, I guess). That would make more sense, in my opinion.

I'm not saying that the characters are not as important as the story in eva (in fact, I beleive the opposite), I'm just reinforcing my point that the story does significantly matter in the grand scheme of things.

[Javik]

For one, the FAR backstory really creates this feeling of a near-omnipotent power hovering over the entire show.

But the FAR are very subtly hinted in the series and in fact even the game doesn't really imply that they're present in any way in the story, they might be long gone.

The angels, too, are on a level of existence seemingly quite far from humanity; albeit they are obviously not all-powerful, or else they wouldn't get killed. Knowing that there are aspects of reality you wouldn't even be capable of understanding if you tried is a pretty freakin' scary thing.

This is definitely true, it does create an atmosphere of both myster and dread.

Code: Select all

But I think the key in Evangelion is that, the FAR, angels, and the lilim are ALL classified as humans. And I'm pretty sure the part of all of these lifeforms that is fundamentally human is the soul.

But on the other hand we're shown how incompatible the two are. Connecting human dna with adam caused the world to almost die.

Otherwise, what would be the point of sending the seeds out in the first place? In other words, the FAR seem to have high expectations, but give little support along the way (which is sort of like a certain father/son relationship you may know of).

But wouldn't the third impact technicaly be a mistake? It's not supposed to be possible without two seeds, and those landed by mistake. The relationship between the far and Gendo seems kind of forced to me, since again the FAR are very subtely hinted. Basically until episode 21 we can't even be sure we have to do with aliens.

Just as Shinji has to live up to the expectations of those close to him (at least, to be happy he does), humanity has to live up to the expectations that the FAR have set for them. This metaphorical connection between Shinji and all of humanity gives all the more sense to instrumentality in EoE, when Shinji has to make a decision for the future of all of humanity. That being said, I know that growing up also means that you must accept that you will inevitably hurt the ones you love, and that they will inevitably hurt you too. On humanity's quest for survival (and subsequent adaptation), there are setbacks, obstacles, and other discouraging things which will also inevitably happen. Evangelion addresses both of these facts: one by showing how Shinji's difficulties in interacting with those around him, and the other by showing the difficulties involved with each angel attack (and these often overlap within the series, e.g. Leliel, Zeruel, and Kaworu especially).

Again, the FAR seem to be rather detatched from what's happening. You feel the presence of something odd and powerful because of Adam, Lilith and the Angels but the FAR not as much.

Well, for the sake of the actual plot, it sort of makes sense as to why everything is so convoluted and hidden. SEELE and Nerv simply don't want people to know about ancient aliens, hidden alien technology, and plans to revert the entire world into tang based on the research of that alien technology. If the audience was able to figure out all of the hidden plot with ease during their first viewing, I feel like it would sort of diminish any sense of unknowing-fear that SEELE may otherwise inflict upon the viewer. I mean, they're this foreboding collection of big black monoliths that speak in only ominous lines; I'm pretty sure they're designed to be somewhat intimidating.

True, though to me this seems more like an in-setting thing than a thematic one.

But I think this is where all the religious stuff fits in. All the crosses, all the Christian names, the way that the Instrumentality committee often spoke as if they were reading off Bible passages;

Actually I have a theory on this that ties in to the themes of the show. I always thought that while we initialy think that we have to do with actual god-like entities later we find out that it's just SEELE attaching that kind of meaning to them because of their obsessions. Just like all the characters escape from something, SEELE does this in the ultimate form. It literally wants to escape the confines of reality and their mortality through their obsessions with the occult and mystical.

Most people tend to ignore Eva's story because they say it's cobbled together. To some extent, it is. Anno has said that he pretty much improvised the show when Gainax was having early money problems.

Wasn't that just with the series ending? You can see most of the stuff in the series established in the proposal. It's also pretty much consistent in the end.

[Director Black]

Wasn't that just with the series ending? You can see most of the stuff in the series established in the proposal. It's also pretty much consistent in the end.

I'm not talking about the story as a whole, just how there's lots of stuff made squeeze in to make it complete. I guess it's more to do with the fact that for many people, it takes a while to fully digest the whole plot of Eva.

[CommanderFish]

But the FAR are very subtly hinted in the series and in fact even the game doesn't really imply that they're present in any way in the story, they might be long gone.

Yeah in hindsight, I shouldn't have mentioned the FAR as much as I did. I think the point that I was trying to make is that something way more powerful than anything else in the show has a constant presence, and this presence is represented through all the Christian symbolism. So, not really the FAR necessarily, because they are only subtly hinted at, and already FAR gone (haha, get it?); but something. I can't even give it a name, really; all I can say that I definitely felt in during my first viewing.

But on the other hand we're shown how incompatible the two are. Connecting human dna with adam caused the world to almost die.

Hence why I said the compatible part is the soul. I think that results of the Contact Experiment just go to show how far-off humans vs. Adam are on an evolutionary scale, actually. But the show still implies that humans are able to evolve to that point, which is pretty important thematically, I think.

But wouldn't the third impact technicaly be a mistake? It's not supposed to be possible without two seeds, and those landed by mistake.

I never mentioned Third Impact in this context. In that regard, I agree; Third Impact was definitely not supposed to happen. It's transhumanistic evolution gone very wrong, as instead of evolving humans to a higher point of existence it's actually reverting us back to our roots. It's escapism for all of humanity, just like how Shinji likes to escape from reality himself. I think that this a definite connection to the characters and themes of the show.

The relationship between the far and Gendo seems kind of forced to me, since again the FAR are very subtely hinted. Basically until episode 21 we can't even be sure we have to do with aliens.

Like I said, I definitely overused the term: "FAR". I was trying to make a point, but I didn't consider how prevalent the FAR themselves were in the show (i.e. basically not at all).

Again, the FAR seem to be rather detatched from what's happening. You feel the presence of something odd and powerful because of Adam, Lilith and the Angels but the FAR not as much.

Yeah, we're in agreement here. And now that I think about it, I think I used the FAR as a sort of all-encompassing term for all these elements, since they do all derive from the same place. Just think about it this way: Adam, Lilith, the Angels, and all their related components are there to symbolize a godly presence (hence their names, as well as all the crosses). And specifically in Christianity, (I say "specifically" because I'm not as familiar with other religions), God has expectations for you--that is--don't steal or lie or do any other sinful things. The expectations in becoming an adult are similar--you have to be mature, responsible, etc. In my opinion, all the religious symbolism is there to represent some type of godly image to live up to, and all the characters start hating themselves when they don't. Except, the 'image' all the characters are trying to live up to is actually one they've created in their own heads, so the religious stuff is just a metaphor. That's the torture of knowing what you need to do to be better, but not having the ability to do it. Fruit of Knowledge, I guess.

True, though to me this seems more like an in-setting thing than a thematic one.

Yeah, you're sort of right. I guess making something more mysterious and complex gives off the illusion of it being powerful and almighty. If I had to make a connection to the themes... hrmm... I guess it makes a bigger impression upon the viewer when the big evil guys running the whole operation actually turn out to be driven by the longing for escapism the whole time, just like everyone else.

Actually I have a theory on this that ties in to the themes of the show. I always thought that while we initialy think that we have to do with actual god-like entities later we find out that it's just SEELE attaching that kind of meaning to them because of their obsessions. Just like all the characters escape from something, SEELE does this in the ultimate form. It literally wants to escape the confines of reality and their mortality through their obsessions with the occult and mystical.

If some of my previous comments don't make it clear enough, I definitely agree with some of what you said here (about SEELE's escapism). But...are there not actual god-like entities in EoE? SEELE's illusion was not in thinking that the FAR were all powerful, because to humans, they basically are. Their illusion was in thinking that all the FAR stuff they had found would adhere to their specific religious dogma. At least that's the way I see it.

[Javik]

Thanks for the elaborate the reply, in general I'd understand your point of view. Though to me that presence seems a bit more detatched. It's more like in the Cthulhu mythos where the aliens are almost incomprehensible and while humans care about them there isn't much of the same the other way around. Lilith is the origin of humanity and she does act but most of the time she has this ominous yet very static presence hanging on a cross. She seems powerful and almost mystical and despite being our ties to her it's hard to believe she really cares.

Still hope some more poeple will answer. Especially since we're not talking about something as specific as "What soul did Unit 00" where there would be a specific answer. We're talking about something much harder to pinpoint so I'd want to see some other perspectives.

[CommanderFish]

Though to me that presence seems a bit more detatched. It's more like in the Cthulhu mythos where the aliens are almost incomprehensible and while humans care about them there isn't much of the same the other way around. Lilith is the origin of humanity and she does act but most of the time she has this ominous yet very static presence hanging on a cross. She seems powerful and almost mystical and despite being our ties to her it's hard to believe she really cares.

Yeah, I agree that the presence is pretty detached overall. But I also think whether or not Lilith "cares" about humans is pretty insignificant. I mean, her sole function is to propagate life, but after that that life has to be self-sufficient. When I say "expectations", I'm not trying to say that this presence will be disappointed if those expectations aren't met, (it probably couldn't care less), but just that the reason for life to exist in the first place is based on these expectations--if that makes any sense. A.k.a. the reason of life = to live, in the simplest terms. When Lilith creates life, she expects that life to live on, but won't necessarily "care" if it doesn't.

Still hope some more poeple will answer. Especially since we're not talking about something as specific as "What soul did Unit 00" where there would be a specific answer. We're talking about something much harder to pinpoint so I'd want to see some other perspectives.

I'd love to see some other perspectives too, especially ones from some people more experienced than myself. Perhaps some of this stuff was discussed long ago, and some searching would be required to find more answers.

[Reichu]

Question #3 appears to be an incomplete sentence.

I tend to view NGE as a vast, multilayered tapestry. You could try reducing it to one particular thing, like "character drama", but that does NGE a disservice as both story and art. It's rich and textured and... Hmm, I feel if I go any further I'll just be channeling Yoshitoh "Eva can be eaten" Asari, so, here we go.

What was I saying...? Anyway, it's possible to contemplate aspects of NGE in isolation. But ultimately, everything is connected. The characters' lives are dictated by psychology. Psychology links back to spirituality, and millennia of humanity attempting to grasp the meaning of their collective existence. Psychology and spirituality tie back into the science fiction elements that frame and propel the story. The science fiction elements impact the characters' lives, and therefore their psychology, and we just go back round in a big circle. I don't even think it's a circle, really. More like a web, with every single thing linking up to multiple other things. NGE has this sort of organic complexity that makes it really special. Whether by accident, design, or both, it rewards rumination upon its contents by virtue of all the links and patterns that emerge as a result.

Anno told us to find our own answers, so, at the end of the day, where we find meaning in his word, there exists actual meaning. If it complements the meaning he had in mind, all the better. But NGE's ability to function as a personal mythology -- the grace with which it filters the contents of the viewer's soul and projects something back that you can learn from and reflect upon -- is perhaps its greatest strength.

[CommanderFish]

^Jesus Christ, this is such a fucking excellent answer. You perfectly conveyed exactly what Eva is about. Congratulations. It's a freaking endless onion and that's amazing.

Hmm, I feel if I go any further I'll just be channeling Yoshitoh "Eva can be eaten" Asari, so, here we go.

Also, I LOVE THIS SO MUCH. I gotta remember this 'eating' concept; it's fucking genius.

[Tumbling Down]

I always forget about that. It's odd though; despite Anno having said this, quantum Rei was present during the very first episode. And this was not addressed until EoE, an entire two years later. I'm tempted to say that Anno actually had most of the larger story written out beforehand, and what he actually improvised was the specific journey's of all the characters (basically their development, I guess). That would make more sense, in my opinion.

Going by what's available of the show's' pitch bible, I think Anno starts with themes and ideas he wants to explore, and works from there. My headcanon is that EoTV is an accurate example of what an episode looks like before it becomes, well, EoE.

[Reichu]

That doesn't work for every episode. Magmadiver, for instance, happened because Anno wanted a fight inside a volcano. XD

[CommanderFish]

I would find it hilarious if Magmadiver actually turns out to be chock-full of deep, hidden meaning that's crucial to understanding the true purpose of the show this whole time. Everyone just passes it off as insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but what if it was actually the most significant episode in the series?

[Javik]

Question #3 appears to be an incomplete sentence.

I tend to view NGE as a vast, multilayered tapestry. You could try reducing it to one particular thing, like "character drama", but that does NGE a disservice as both story and art. It's rich and textured and...

I corrected the sentence. As for the later part of your answer. Sure, I would agree. But I think there is a valid reason for what people say the show is "about the characters". In the end EoE and EoTV does leave us with a message, one that is rather strongly stated. That message relates more strongly to the characters and the story surrounding them than to the story behind the setting and its lore. On top of that the main character Shinji never is that interested in those aspects. Despite the fact that we know he wasn't highly informed about them. When he gets in trouble he focuses more on why he needs to do that things that he does rather they why they need to be done and what he even is doing. If you take the message of the endings you could easily imagine a show similar to eva without the mythology. It could be based on another religion or even not be without mecha at all. On the other hand you can't really imagine the same message without the characters and the same setting. The characters would need to have to go through at least some kind of similar problems related to the subject of communication and escapism.

[Reichu]

I really dislike the "boiling down" approach, as I find it disingenuous. When it comes down to it, all of our stories have the same spare parts that we are constantly recycling. The bare bones only matter up to the point that they form a solid foundation, after which it's the supposedly less significant details that create differentiation and personal appeal. It's also one thing to say that the characters are the crux of the work, and quite another to say that the characters would not be appreciably different if the setting, lore, and story were surgically removed and replaced with something else. Taking this idea to its logical conclusion, at best you would have a bunch of people who share the names and appearances of NGE characters, and who have the very broadest strokes of their personalities and experiences in common. Close examination would reveal countless differences that add up quickly, and ultimately what you'd be left with is not the cast of NGE, but the cast of some other show that is only comparable to Eva's cast in some capacity or another.

Just as real people are shaped by their surroundings, so too are fictional characters. Everything in the show is part of the creative landscape that gave rise to these characters and helped inform them both in and out of universe. It's all connected. All necessary parts of the organism.

As I believe I've said, if Anno's only interest was in pure character drama, NGE would have been an avant garde theater production instead of a giant robot cartoon. In my many years talking Eva online, I've not infrequently gotten the impression that many fans actively devalue the vehicle used to deliver the "message" -- putting what they consider worthy onto a pedestal and shunning the rest. I know Asari said that Evangelion should be "eaten", but I don't think he meant that you should just put the prime cuts on your plate and let everything else go to the dog food factory.

[CommanderFish]

Taking this idea to its logical conclusion, at best you would have a bunch of people who share the names and appearances of NGE characters, and who have the very broadest strokes of their personalities and experiences in common. Close examination would reveal countless differences that add up quickly, and ultimately what you'd be left with is not the cast of NGE, but the cast of some other show that is only comparable to Eva's cast in some capacity or another.

So... NTE, basically? (*joking...well, sort of joking)

I agree with everything else you said though. NGE simply wouldn't be NGE without all it's layers of stuff (and there's a lot of stuff, certainly). The mecha element is particularly important, in my opinion.

I feel like it would especially help this thread if some more perspectives were contributed, so that we can actually say why the setting, lore, and story is important instead of just saying that it is (I'm exaggerating a bit, but still). But alas, it seems not many users are frequenting the discussion forums right now...

[Reichu]

So... NTE, basically? (*joking...well, sort of joking)

No, actually, the very same thought crawled into my mind while I was writing. NTE does illustrate in some helpful ways how quickly the differences can pile up even with a comparatively minimal number of details altered. (By that I mean they're occupying an alternate version of what is quite recognizably the Evangelion universe, as opposed to being planted in, say, some sort of purely mundane dramatic setting.)

[BlueBasilisk]

So... NTE, basically? (*joking...well, sort of joking)

Campus Apocalypse is a much better example. It's just a low-rent Shin Megami Tensei manga hidden behind a thin coat of Evangelion paint.