Differing title cards/eyecatches in ep 15 + 24

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Postby Moap » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:32 pm

I've been thinking about this lately and I think another way to look at this is to analyze what every episode has that these three episodes do not. For instance, I can be confident that the symbolism has nothing to do with Rei since we are seen the death of Rei I, and the death of Rei II, outside of these episodes. I don't think it's terminal dogma because we see Rei descend into Terminal dogma twice, the first time to impale Lillith and the second time to retrieve the lance, outside of these episodes. I also don't think it has to do with Kaji, since we see him die in episode 21.

It seems to me the main characters that tie the three episodes together are Shinji, Misato, and Asuka. Episode fifteens titlecard could be about the dysfunctional relationships that lead each character to their demise. Shinji visits his mother, talks to Rei about motherhood, and then visits his mothers grave and talks to his dad. Misato ends up spilling her guts about Kaji resembling her father. Asuka ditches her date, kisses Shinji, and then realizes Misato is the object of Kaji's desires instead of her. It could be argued that Shinjis lack of proper parental figures is the cause of his breakdown, Asuka's desire to be an adult in lieu of her mothers suicide(one of her reasons for being attracted to Kaji being to verify her status as an adult), and her desire to be cared about is the cause of her breakdown. And Misato filling the holes in her heart with dysfunctional relationships is the cause of her breakdown.

Episode 24 also begins with Asuka recollecting her mothers suicide, followed by her being found in the bathtub. Shinji talks about how Rei reminds him of his mother, and then there is a flash of Yui's grave, and Shinji asks himself what Gendo is doing with Rei and his mother. Shinji in the scene following the next ponders where Asuka has gone, and talks about how he has no friends left. Misato mournfully admits to herself that she isn't deserving of Shinji's trust when he doesnt come home, then sorrowfully says to Pen Pen she might not see him anymore. This episode also makes it clear that Misato has Hyuga on the hook, using his feelings for her to get him to get him to bring her information on Kaworu, and of course then Shinji kills Kaworu. When Shinji confesses his feelings about Kaworu to Misato, she replies that he was the one who had the will to live. Shinji asks her how she can be so cruel. Asuka has a complete mental breakdown over her perception that no one cares about her, Misato becomes cold at the loss of the relationships of those close to her (Kaji obviously, but also Asuka and Shinji), and Shinji becomes more and more depressed as he contemplates the fact he has no relationships culminating in the final dialogue of the episode over him killing Kaworu.

Following this, in AIR Shinji is implied to attempt killing himself by drowning, which could be an allusion to Asukas suicide attempt in the bathtub at the beginning of ep24 (Both characters at these points believed they have no one who really cares about them), and both of them are reduced to a near if not catatonic state. Misato dies calling out for Kaji, Asuka gets eaten by dicks, and Shinji is crucified to begin third impact. The reason I mention all three of them, is because NGE seems to love to present us with things in trios, like the three evas, the three magi, the three Reis, or the three characters living in Misato's apartment.

On a slightly different note, I feel its also important to ask the counter question to your original question, if ep15, ep24, and AIR all have some sort of death symbolism, doesn't this mean that every other episode must have some sort of life symbolism?

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Postby MoroNoKimi » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:39 pm

View Original PostMoap wrote:I've been thinking about this lately and I think another way to look at this is to analyze what every episode has that these three episodes do not. For instance, I can be confident that the symbolism has nothing to do with Rei since we are seen the death of Rei I, and the death of Rei II, outside of these episodes. I don't think it's terminal dogma because we see Rei descend into Terminal dogma twice, the first time to impale Lillith and the second time to retrieve the lance, outside of these episodes. I also don't think it has to do with Kaji, since we see him die in episode 21.

It seems to me the main characters that tie the three episodes together are Shinji, Misato, and Asuka. Episode fifteens titlecard could be about the dysfunctional relationships that lead each character to their demise. Shinji visits his mother, talks to Rei about motherhood, and then visits his mothers grave and talks to his dad. Misato ends up spilling her guts about Kaji resembling her father. Asuka ditches her date, kisses Shinji, and then realizes Misato is the object of Kaji's desires instead of her. It could be argued that Shinjis lack of proper parental figures is the cause of his breakdown, Asuka's desire to be an adult in lieu of her mothers suicide(one of her reasons for being attracted to Kaji being to verify her status as an adult), and her desire to be cared about is the cause of her breakdown. And Misato filling the holes in her heart with dysfunctional relationships is the cause of her breakdown.

Episode 24 also begins with Asuka recollecting her mothers suicide, followed by her being found in the bathtub. Shinji talks about how Rei reminds him of his mother, and then there is a flash of Yui's grave, and Shinji asks himself what Gendo is doing with Rei and his mother. Shinji in the scene following the next ponders where Asuka has gone, and talks about how he has no friends left. Misato mournfully admits to herself that she isn't deserving of Shinji's trust when he doesnt come home, then sorrowfully says to Pen Pen she might not see him anymore. This episode also makes it clear that Misato has Hyuga on the hook, using his feelings for her to get him to get him to bring her information on Kaworu, and of course then Shinji kills Kaworu. When Shinji confesses his feelings about Kaworu to Misato, she replies that he was the one who had the will to live. Shinji asks her how she can be so cruel. Asuka has a complete mental breakdown over her perception that no one cares about her, Misato becomes cold at the loss of the relationships of those close to her (Kaji obviously, but also Asuka and Shinji), and Shinji becomes more and more depressed as he contemplates the fact he has no relationships culminating in the final dialogue of the episode over him killing Kaworu.

Following this, in AIR Shinji is implied to attempt killing himself by drowning, which could be an allusion to Asukas suicide attempt in the bathtub at the beginning of ep24 (Both characters at these points believed they have no one who really cares about them), and both of them are reduced to a near if not catatonic state. Misato dies calling out for Kaji, Asuka gets eaten by dicks, and Shinji is crucified to begin third impact. The reason I mention all three of them, is because NGE seems to love to present us with things in trios, like the three evas, the three magi, the three Reis, or the three characters living in Misato's apartment.

On a slightly different note, I feel its also important to ask the counter question to your original question, if ep15, ep24, and AIR all have some sort of death symbolism, doesn't this mean that every other episode must have some sort of life symbolism?

A lot of extremely good points--actually, by this analysis the three white title cards form a three part arc, which is especially pertinent giving Eva's love of trios in symbolism that you already gave so many examples of.

I know I said I wasn't going to argue about the Asuka-suicide thing, but I'm going to argue a little so bear with me. My disagreement on that factor doesn't really put any holes in your overall synthesis anyway so it's just me being nitpicky.
I think you'd be right that if Asuka attempted suicide AND Shinji also attempted it later, it would be some kind of link, but I have never been sold on the Asuka-suicide theory (I have always believed she was sitting in the bathtub, semi delirious, because it was a little bit like being in the entry plug.) I know that the fact that her mother committed suicide is usually cited as the primary justification but it's never felt accurate to me. I feel Asuka would be far more likely to attempt and succeed than to attempt and fail.
I think Shinji attempting it is more likely but still not that likely because his deathwish manifests strongly in EoE as a simple "lay down and die" mentality, and any suicide attempt, no matter the means, is still taking an active hand. But I feel it's more likely he might try to drown himself than Asuka slitting her wrists in a tub.

Aaaanyway, you're right about those three events in AIR occurring as a trio but considering how much else happens at the same time, can we really necessarily say they are "linked" any more than any of the other events? Asuka, Misato, and Shinji follow separate character arcs--they have connection to each other, but they aren't wholly dependent on each other either.

Yeah the more I look into this the more I think that putting it down to death symbolism for the white card episodes is overly reductive, mostly because we have so many other factors at play. And there isn't really any material to make a case for the rest of the series to be representative of life (besides, it's too broad a concept).

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Postby Moap » Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:14 am

View Original PostMoroNoKimi wrote:A lot of extremely good points--actually, by this analysis the three white title cards form a three part arc, which is especially pertinent giving Eva's love of trios in symbolism that you already gave so many examples of.

I know I said I wasn't going to argue about the Asuka-suicide thing, but I'm going to argue a little so bear with me. My disagreement on that factor doesn't really put any holes in your overall synthesis anyway so it's just me being nitpicky.
I think you'd be right that if Asuka attempted suicide AND Shinji also attempted it later, it would be some kind of link, but I have never been sold on the Asuka-suicide theory (I have always believed she was sitting in the bathtub, semi delirious, because it was a little bit like being in the entry plug.) I know that the fact that her mother committed suicide is usually cited as the primary justification but it's never felt accurate to me. I feel Asuka would be far more likely to attempt and succeed than to attempt and fail.
I think Shinji attempting it is more likely but still not that likely because his deathwish manifests strongly in EoE as a simple "lay down and die" mentality, and any suicide attempt, no matter the means, is still taking an active hand. But I feel it's more likely he might try to drown himself than Asuka slitting her wrists in a tub.

Aaaanyway, you're right about those three events in AIR occurring as a trio but considering how much else happens at the same time, can we really necessarily say they are "linked" any more than any of the other events? Asuka, Misato, and Shinji follow separate character arcs--they have connection to each other, but they aren't wholly dependent on each other either.

Yeah the more I look into this the more I think that putting it down to death symbolism for the white card episodes is overly reductive, mostly because we have so many other factors at play. And there isn't really any material to make a case for the rest of the series to be representative of life (besides, it's too broad a concept).


Rewatching episode 24 today, I paid attention to the water and it doesn't seem like blood, so I don't think she tried to slice her wrists. More likely she wandered the city, starving herself (Hence the sunken look on her), perhaps she was just laying in a tub because the dirty water resembled LCL, you start to hallucinate pretty hard when you starve yourself or are extremely sleep deprived. Shinjis attempted suicide is clearer, I believe its the opening scene of EoE when we hear a splash, then see a soaked Shinji. Shinji can't swim, if he jumped into a lake it almost certainly was a suicide attempt.

You're also right, these three episodes do form another trio. I feel its important to acknowledge that Shinji, Misato, and Asuka are the central characters of the show, (Rei as well of course, though she does not have a breakdown like the others, she also is only sort of human, and receives three episodes about her character development outside of these).

I doubt the life and death symbolism as well, they are extremely broad concepts, but I see no better theory so its what I have to go on until some one comes up with a better explanation. The breakdowns of Shinji, Asuka, and Misato are the only things that I see tying the three episodes together, though it could be argued Misato doesn't really have a breakdown either. This loses the trio aspect of things, though I could have missed something. If Asuka doesn't attempt suicide in ep24, it destroys any suicide connection between her and Shinji, and without Misato in the symbolism the idea of literal character death being a theme also goes out the window since Shinji doesn't really die in AIR. I also feel skeptical the titlecards are solely about Asuka because she is not the main character of the series.

I know in an interview Sadamoto mentioned that Anno originally intended for a female lead resembling Asuka, but Sadamoto pushed for a male lead since the genre was mecha. So I guess maybe it was about her since she resembled the lead Anno originally wanted, I still feel skeptical they would devote this symbolism to a character besides Shinji, and if not Shinji there would have to be very good reason for it not to be Misato or Rei, either.

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Postby unz » Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:13 am

My guess was, having white background was something of a shocker signpost with some black on them as a promise of dramatic turns so you don't really need to look at every other episode - just 15 to 24 (with occasional life stuff too).
So for example yui is found somewhat alive into 01 in the following eps iIrc/ adam turns out to be lilith later/ kaworu dies and it's never all or nothing but a mix of emotions.
I agree the color code has issues though and the reading of death as main theme is not consistent - death is not all there it is and the connections between the 2 eps are weak. Specifically I don't know what the colours stand for in eva; I just keep looking at personalities or white eva series or toji coming out of eva03 or the marble angel etc like some foreshadowing so for example adam as a threat/adam being lilith isn't a stretch but some turn you can see from miles away.
Didn't tie things up tho

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:47 am

The whole ceremonial aesthetic that Asuka's placed around herself in Ep 24 seems more deliberate and emotional than anything else, and the censorship used in the OA scene isn't standard for your run-of-the-mill, nudity censorship. Eva has always shown bit more skin when it's a simply nude censorship, even in the more dramatic or emotional scenes, even in non-fanservicy scenes. Compare the censorship in OA 24 to Rei in the tube. There's something more than the body being censored in Asuka's OA 24 tub scene, and I do remember Anno have certain restrictions placed upon him by the networks about the portrayal of bodily harms towards children.

In this light, the DC version of the episode is the real proof that Asuka may have been wrist-slitting or something. If nudity was all there was to censor in the OA version, we should have at least seen some nipples or something in the uncensored version. But all we see is a lightly covered Asuka surrounded by red stuff. Since the nudity wasn't really heightened by the lack of censorship, then the censorship must have been aimed at something other than Asuka's nudity. And the only other substance that requires censorship seems to be in the tub with Asuka.

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Postby MoroNoKimi » Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:55 pm

View Original PostMoap wrote:Rewatching episode 24 today, I paid attention to the water and it doesn't seem like blood, so I don't think she tried to slice her wrists. More likely she wandered the city, starving herself (Hence the sunken look on her), perhaps she was just laying in a tub because the dirty water resembled LCL, you start to hallucinate pretty hard when you starve yourself or are extremely sleep deprived. Shinjis attempted suicide is clearer, I believe its the opening scene of EoE when we hear a splash, then see a soaked Shinji. Shinji can't swim, if he jumped into a lake it almost certainly was a suicide attempt.

You're also right, these three episodes do form another trio. I feel its important to acknowledge that Shinji, Misato, and Asuka are the central characters of the show, (Rei as well of course, though she does not have a breakdown like the others, she also is only sort of human, and receives three episodes about her character development outside of these).

I doubt the life and death symbolism as well, they are extremely broad concepts, but I see no better theory so its what I have to go on until some one comes up with a better explanation. The breakdowns of Shinji, Asuka, and Misato are the only things that I see tying the three episodes together, though it could be argued Misato doesn't really have a breakdown either. This loses the trio aspect of things, though I could have missed something. If Asuka doesn't attempt suicide in ep24, it destroys any suicide connection between her and Shinji, and without Misato in the symbolism the idea of literal character death being a theme also goes out the window since Shinji doesn't really die in AIR. I also feel skeptical the titlecards are solely about Asuka because she is not the main character of the series.

I know in an interview Sadamoto mentioned that Anno originally intended for a female lead resembling Asuka, but Sadamoto pushed for a male lead since the genre was mecha. So I guess maybe it was about her since she resembled the lead Anno originally wanted, I still feel skeptical they would devote this symbolism to a character besides Shinji, and if not Shinji there would have to be very good reason for it not to be Misato or Rei, either.

Aha, you see then! I think you're certainly right that she wandered around for a long time and not eating, but that sort of listless incidental starvation does not, to me, constitute an active suicide attempt. It's the kind of thing that happens because you don't care all that much, and isn't the same thing as making an active choice to do something to end your life. But of course, that doesn't contradict what you said here!
No, see, I don't think that's it either. The sound effect for the splash is identical to the sound effect used for when Kaworu's head falls into the LCL--it's representing that Shinji is fixating on that and replaying it over and over again in his head, the guilt is eating away at him. ALTHOUGH, I concede that that fact does not necessarily contradict the possibility of him attempting to drown himself.
(But, I'm going to drop the suicide thing here, because that's really tertiary to the symbolism of the title cards, and is a debate I don't feel like having with everyone anyway.)
The idea that all of this is about Asuka strikes me as a bit ridiculous. As you say, it's hard to believe that something this big a deal would be devoted just to her. Realistically, though the other characters are of course important, they are all ultimately secondary to Shinji and his story.
Not to mention that episode 24 in particular is centered on Shinji above all else, given that killing Kaworu is the final thing that really breaks him.
And for that matter, there are other episodes that should be included in this if the title cards were meant to be about Asuka. There's just too many gaps in the idea.

View Original Postunz wrote:My guess was, having white background was something of a shocker signpost with some black on them as a promise of dramatic turns so you don't really need to look at every other episode - just 15 to 24 (with occasional life stuff too).
So for example yui is found somewhat alive into 01 in the following eps iIrc/ adam turns out to be lilith later/ kaworu dies and it's never all or nothing but a mix of emotions.
I agree the color code has issues though and the reading of death as main theme is not consistent - death is not all there it is and the connections between the 2 eps are weak. Specifically I don't know what the colours stand for in eva; I just keep looking at personalities or white eva series or toji coming out of eva03 or the marble angel etc like some foreshadowing so for example adam as a threat/adam being lilith isn't a stretch but some turn you can see from miles away.
Didn't tie things up tho

You know, I think that might be the best answer so far, certainly it's one of the cleanest with no irregularities. Episode 16 is the inevitable point of downward spiral (the "point of no return" in story structure terms) but episode 15 could be marked as the last point BEFORE the point of no return.
And for episode 24 it's the marker of the beginning of the end--it even says so in the episode title, haha.
Yeah I agree the idea that the white itself is of symbolic significance is rather tenuous. Color symbolism is really only effective when it's used consistently and throughout a work (for perhaps an odd example, look at the usage of color and color palettes in the DreamWorks movie The Prince of Egypt, it's extremely well used) and since that isn't the case with Eva it's safe to assume that the color in itself is a bit of a red herring.

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Postby unz » Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:52 pm

Got me thinking more about clothes and plugsuits though -nte is better designed I guess tying a lot of stuff together- so you have things like kaworu playing Shinji's dopple and talking of life and death and yeah that makes the colors purely emotional signposting. Like taking a punch in the gut for any achievement, everything turning into lies, lack of support as far the 3 characters go.
Red herring, yeah, I'd like to call it a layer of fat.


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