Rejection vs Understanding. Asuka/Shinji theory

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Rejection vs Understanding. Asuka/Shinji theory

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Postby AlphaGamma » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:04 pm

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post it, but, after reading the Asuka-Shinji theory from the wiki ([url]http://wiki.evageeks.org/Theory_and_Analysis:Shinji_and_Asuka%27s_Relationship#Episode_16:_Asuka_Surpassed[/url]), i felt like i had to point out some issues with the analysis. It truly feels very biased and superficial, at times even illogical.
I have taken the liberty to write comments/corrections on some of the parts i consider to be most fallacious and misleading (opinions...), to see if we can start a discussion.

I'll only go through one episode. Just to give you an idea of what i mean. The parts in italic are quoted from the Theory. You can skip this and go straight to the conclusion if you want.
SPOILER: Show
Episode 09: Once Again They Must Work Together

"Asuka soon becomes Shinji's classmate. It is at once apparent that she has gained respect for Shinji, greeting him with a cheery "Guten Morgen!", while stomping disdainfully on a locker full of love letters from her other male classmates."

- The writer immediately proceeds to associate Asuka greeting Shinji in german, to her being respectful (disregarding the fact that shortly after, she calls him an idiot) and seemingly implying that her rejection of the various love letters has something to do with the boy(?). In the sequence in question the two instances are separate, with no correlation between them.

"Hikari, who already recognizes Shinji and Asuka as a couple blames Shinji"

- Why would anyone state this? Is it an attempt to mislead the reader? In the actual scene nothing suggests that this would be the case.

"On the evening before the second battle with Israfel Misato does not come home, leaving the children alone for the first time. Asuka then puts her increasing infatuation with Shinji to the test, pointing out that they are all alone. This hint goes completely over the socially inept Shinji's head. Misinterpreting his lack of response as a deliberate rejection, she angrily moves into Misato's room for the night, but not without bending forward giving him an impressive look at her cleavage.""

- First off; there is no infatuation to speak of, at this point in the series, nor would it ever make sense to refer to Asuka's feelings for Shinji (at any point) with such a definition.
After "pointing out that they are all alone" she immediately proceeds to grab her futon and bring it to Misato's room, with the clear intention to be on her own. She doesn't even give Shinji the time to come up with a "response" of any kind. There is no misinterpretation on Asuka's part here (no perceived rejection). The only misinterpretation comes from Shinji failing to understand Asuka's loneliness (which she has no conscious intention to reveal).

"She also calls the bedroom door the "Wall of Jerico", warning him to stay out. The audience realizes that the Walls of Jerico fell down; Shinji doesn't figure out this hint either."

- The "Walls of Jericho" are not down (not in Asuka's reference), they are still up and very strong; that is the point. In fact, she refers to them specifically as the "Impenetrable Walls of Jericho", threatening Shinji, to keep him from entering the room. She wants him out, not because she doesn't need his company, but because she refuses to show herself as weak.

"In a flashback in Ep. 22 we find out this leaves her alone and dejected."

- Indeed, we find out, in ep. 22, that Asuka was lonely and in need of company (Shinji's), but, in line with her personality, she couldn't accept the idea of relying on others (which, funnily enough, is also expressed in ep. 22); as such, instead of simply sleeping with Shinji, as she was supposed to do (and arguably had been doing for the whole week), she goes to Misato's room as soon as she receives confirmation that she isn't coming back, to maintain her independant facade.

"Despite this misunderstanding, the battle is a success, the Angel defeated. At this point the almost kiss comes to light, revealing that he is interested in her after all. She reacts with (feigned?) anger."

- First logical fallacy. The writer pointed out, in the previous paragraph, that Asuka had felt rejected by Shinji (strongly implying a romantic connotation to the scene) and brought up the mindrape in ep. 22 as the "proof" of the interpretation. Yet, now, he is saying that Asuka feels like Shinji is interested in her (after finding out about the kiss).
The question is: Why would Asuka even bring up the Wall of Jericho scene in the mindrape (ep.22)?
If the point is that Asuka feels romantically rejected, shouldn't she disregard the moment in question, knowing that Shinji tried to kiss her?
The answer is simple. Asuka does not feel rejected by Shinji, nor is the help she seeks meant to be only romantic. The issue she has with him is that he is unable to understand her and help her (being dense, passive), as such, even if she is aware of his interest in her, that doesn't bring her any comfort. It just frustrates her.

To summarize:
- The writer seems to write under the assumption that Asuka is actively and consciously seeking Shinji's romantic attention (not even help/company in general), as opposed to being very conflicted about it. (Though she definitely likes to be "looked at")
- He/she identifies the source of her conflict in "Asuka feeling rejected", instead of "Asuka struggling to accept the thought of relying on/opening up to Shinji".
- He/she doesn't seem to realize that Asuka is aware of Shinji's inability to understand her, and that is what she takes issue with (especially in ep. 22).
- He/she disregards the importance being the best pilot has for Asuka, stating that her anger after losing to Shinji (ep.16) was in truth related to their kiss (ignoring the obvious foreshadowing of ep.12).
- He/she seems to deliberately understate the importance of Kaji for Asuka (despite the numerous scenes related to them added in the dc), to artificially increase Shinji's. Whereas, in the story, it is Shinji who fails to prove himself a "worthy" replacement for her ex-guardian.
- He/she seems to consider Asuka somewhat limited mentally, when it comes to understanding others. In the series she is shown to be, at times, a surprisingly good judge of character. She may not be empathic but she is perceptive.

So, combining some of the points together, the right(?) conclusion concerning Asuka's relationship with Shinji is:
Asuka is aware of Shinji's interest in her. She knows about his inability to understand her on his own. She is in need of help from Shinji. She can only receive Shinji's help if he is able to understand her. She refuses to explain herself to him. (as such)She remains alone and helpless.

In a more normal way:
Asuka does not feel rejected by Shinji, nor is the love she seeks from him meant to be only romantic. The issue she has with him is that he is unable to understand her and help her (he is dense, passive), as such, even if she is aware of his interest in her, that doesn't bring her any comfort. It just frustrates her (ep.22 arael).

Third time:
It is never about Asuka feeling rejected by Shinji (that's Kaji), it is always about her not feeling understood. (no, it's not the same thing)
Asuka to Hikari (ep. 18): "Actually, he's the most dense of them all. And he's an idiot to boot. He doesn't know how to relate to people."
Asuka to Shinji (EoE): "So, here I come. You don't understand anything! Don't come near me."
"You don't understand. Idiot! Do you think you really understand what I'm thinking? Do you think you can help me? This is your egotistic nature! You don't understand."

The "here i come" is referencing the kiss (ep. 15), further clarifying the correct interpretation of the scene (and by extension their relationship).
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Sorry for the length (as usual) and please let me know what's your opinion on the subject.
P.S. I wouldn't mind helping out with the wiki, in general, if possible.

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Postby NemZ » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:02 pm

I still prefer the original version of the show where this wasn't even an issue to start with, but your interpretation makes sense to me, sure.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:09 pm

The writer


The wiki is an effort of several people working on the same page at any given time, not just 1 writer. That article's extremely old by now, either way. Though, some of those assumptions you mentioned come straight from the Platinum (Renewal) booklet commentary on DC 22':

[url]http://www.evamonkey.com/platinum-booklets/episode-commentaries-21-26.php [/url]

Note that in the struggle in her inner space, a scene where she is hanging her head in dejection with the sliding door closed has been newly inserted after the scene from Episode Nine, "Moment and Heart Together," where she shuts the sliding door. And likewise, after the kiss scene from Episode Fifteen, "Lies and Silence," there is a new scene showing her looking frustrated after rinsing her mouth. And from Asuka's dialogue that overlaps these scenes, it becomes clear that she has been looking for help and love from Shinji.


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Postby BC Baron » Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:24 pm

Makes me wonder whether Asuka would've been in favor of simply initiating Instrumentality all along, had the concept ever been fully explained to her. Near as I can tell, it's just about the only way supposedly clueless people like Shinji could accurately read her mind and completely understand her without the inconvenience of actually taking part in potentially awkward conversations about her past.

I'm pretty sure Shinji made at least a couple of attempts to learn more about her. At one point he asks her why she pilots Eva and, in the episode where Asuka's stepmother calls, he was trying to find out a little more about her relationship with her parents. He might have even been willing to discuss some of his own parental issues if Asuka had not shut down the discussion immediately.

I dunno. Maybe I'm talking out of my ass here, but it seems rather unfair to criticize a fourteen year-old boy for his lack of insight into the feminine mystique when said female is unwilling to open up about anything.
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Postby AlphaGamma » Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:02 am

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:The wiki is an effort of several people working on the same page at any given time, not just 1 writer. That article's extremely old by now, either way. Though, some of those assumptions you mentioned come straight from the Platinum (Renewal) booklet commentary on DC 22':

Oh ye, i agree with the Booklets there (well, the bold part). No question. I was just questioning Asuka's perception of Shinji (not what she needs from him in general). Which is a pretty big deal, even if it doesn't change the story much.
View Original PostNemZ wrote:If you want to work on the wiki you should say so HERE.

Will do, sorry.
BC Baron wrote:Makes me wonder whether Asuka would've been in favor of simply initiating Instrumentality all along, had the concept ever been fully explained to her. Near as I can tell, it's just about the only way supposedly clueless people like Shinji could accurately read her mind and completely understand her without the inconvenience of actually taking part in potentially awkward conversations about her past.

I'm pretty sure Shinji made at least a couple of attempts to learn more about her. At one point he asks her why she pilots Eva and, in the episode where Asuka's stepmother calls, he was trying to find out a little more about her relationship with her parents. He might have even been willing to discuss some of his own parental issues if Asuka had not shut down the discussion immediately.

I dunno. Maybe I'm talking out of my ass here, but it seems rather unfair to criticize a fourteen year-old boy for his lack of insight into the feminine mystique when said female is unwilling to open up about anything.

She would "kill" everyone just to be understood, risking not to be able to come back. Pretty extreme, lol. But, then again, she is extreme.

Yes, he tries awkwardly to understand her and u can tell, that in a way, she is looking to open up, but Shinji is too weak-willed a boy to push through and insist. In a couple of instances Shinji downright tries to "comfort" her (end of ep.22 and implied at the start of ep.24, right before lashing out at her after getting pushed around), but for the same reasons as before he fails the get through to her and is easily scared off.

Asuka is very unfair and unreasonable. There is nothing left for her but to feel frustrated and hopeless, when even a guy who cares about her fails to get through to her.
Though there is something to be said about the value of forcing a change upon oneself, in order to be closer to someone. Shinji (mostly) fails in that regard too. Obviously, it isn't easy for him to suddenly "grow some balls" or "man up" (as Asuka "kindly" reminds him every opportunity she gets). In that sense it is not too unreasonable for Asuka to be displeased.
He is interested, he should change himself for her (ok, it is a bit unreasonable, but that is likely how she feels). Don't forget that Asuka (for once) wouldn't be a hypocrite, because she does try pretty hard to "change" herself in order to be closer to Kaji (mainly for selfish reasons, but that's the nature of non-motherly love in Eva most of the time).

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Postby Bagheera » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:20 am

View Original PostBC Baron wrote:Makes me wonder whether Asuka would've been in favor of simply initiating Instrumentality all along, had the concept ever been fully explained to her. Near as I can tell, it's just about the only way supposedly clueless people like Shinji could accurately read her mind and completely understand her without the inconvenience of actually taking part in potentially awkward conversations about her past.


In principle I think this might be a valid point but after the mindrape I seriously doubt it.

I dunno. Maybe I'm talking out of my ass here, but it seems rather unfair to criticize a fourteen year-old boy for his lack of insight into the feminine mystique when said female is unwilling to open up about anything.


Is it really about criticizing him? If he doesn't understand he doesn't. They why of it doesn't change anything (i.e. yes, it's her fault he doesn't understand (well, partially; he is rather dense), but no one ever said her methodology was flawless).

View Original PostAlphaGamma wrote:Asuka is very unfair and unreasonable. There is nothing left for her but to feel frustrated and hopeless, when even a guy who cares about her fails to get through to her.


Yup.

Though there is something to be said about the value of forcing a change upon oneself, in order to be closer to someone. Shinji (mostly) fails in that regard too. Obviously, it isn't easy for him to suddenly "grow some balls" or "man up" (as Asuka "kindly" reminds him every opportunity she gets). In that sense it is not too unreasonable for Asuka to be displeased.
He is interested, he should change himself for her (ok, it is a bit unreasonable, but that is likely how she feels). Don't forget that Asuka (for once) wouldn't be a hypocrite, because she does try pretty hard to "change" herself in order to be closer to Kaji (mainly for selfish reasons, but that's the nature of non-motherly love in Eva most of the time).


I tend to agree here as well. Understanding the problem doesn't mean you can magically fix it, and being frustrated and disappointed when someone else who at least has an inkling of the issue won't/can't push through and force your hand is understandable. To put it another way, it's less "he should have done this" than it is "if he had done this he could have fix things for both of us, but he couldn't do it and I couldn't either so I hate us both."
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Postby Mr. Jive » Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:25 pm

Hikari, who already recognizes Shinji and Asuka as a couple blames Shinji"

Really? If hikari knew this, why did she try to set Asuka up on a date in a later ep? Don't that make hikari look bad and Asuka look worst for cheating? Don't they know how bad this make both girls look? Don't they know how foolish this make themselves look? Just goes to show you these fans will go to any lows just to get other people to think there something romantic going on here. Just want to ignore the fact Shinji had a batter relationship whit Rei until he fond out she was from planet mars. Want to ignore the fact once kaworu pop up he ignore the plight of both girls so he can take nude baths whit him while blushing about it. Why must they tune everything into some lame ass romantic moment? Even in the manga version they think when Shinji visit Asuka in the hospital they try to make it look like he was confessing his feeling for her. Ignoring the fact he just admit his feelings for kaworu to mistao after he was force to kill him. The big difference is Asuka jump up and strangle him, it took 3 people to pull her off of him. Love is differently in the air. Other websites are just as bad. Eva complex want people to think instrumentality choose Asuka over Rei and mistao to be at Shinji side while once again ignoring Shinji is LGBT. EC want people to think the two have reach a understanding? So Shinji strangling his roommate is prof he understands her now? Really EC??? Asuka came back on her own cause she a warriors that refuse go out like a helpess rape victim. And just what kind of understanding are we talking about here? That they should go their own way cause they can't stand one another? Or is this some sort of Disney movie ending understanding? It sad fans refuse to accept Shinji is a scumbag that never develop or understood anyone or anything due to his own ignorance. Even his own friend (kensuke) pointed out what a ignorant fool he is in tv version of EOE. And that from the nicest guy in eva. You can't be a hateful, ignorant fool who never understood the people around him or ignore the pain you cause those that are close to you, and expect things to turn out well.
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Postby Arcadia's legacy » Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:36 pm

View Original PostMr. Jive wrote:Just want to ignore the fact Shinji had a batter relationship whit Rei until he fond out she was from planet mars.


Umm, what?

Can someone please explain what Jives is trying to convey?

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Postby pwhodges » Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:39 pm

s/batter/better/
Mars I can't help with (in this context)...

View Original PostMr. Jive wrote:Shinji is LGBT.

A community might be LBGT, but a person is usually only one of them. You meant gay, I presume.

EC want people to think the two have reach a understanding? So Shinji strangling his roommate is prof he understands her now? Really EC???

There's no point in criticising another website here, you know.

In any case, how about you start to answer some of the comments on your views in this forum?
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Re: Rejection vs Understanding. Asuka/Shinji theory

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Postby zlink64 » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:12 pm

View Original PostAlphaGamma wrote:To summarize:
- The writer seems to write under the assumption that Asuka is actively and consciously seeking Shinji's romantic attention (not even help/company in general), as opposed to being very conflicted about it. (Though she definitely likes to be "looked at")


I think a lot of what you say make sense and I like it but I'm not sure I understand why you think Asuka isn't actively and consciously seeking Shinji's romatic attention. Like her doing that does not directly contradict everything you've noticed. Like both can be true during the show. Unless you think otherwise?

View Original PostAlphaGamma wrote:In a more normal way:
Asuka does not feel rejected by Shinji, nor is the love she seeks from him meant to be only romantic. The issue she has with him is that he is unable to understand her and help her (he is dense, passive), as such, even if she is aware of his interest in her, that doesn't bring her any comfort. It just frustrates her (ep.22 arael).


What are your thoughts on how Rei effects their relationship? I'm asking because their are moments in the show where Shinji kinda just chooses Rei over Asuka and I got the impression that part of why Asuka dislikes Rei so much is because she is jealous of the attention Shinji gives her. I always thought Asuka did in fact feel rejected by Shinji because of Rei. Like there is a scene where Asuka is just Staring at Rei and Shinji from a train track in DC. I got the sense that Asuka was extremely Jealous/Hatorade filled in that scene.
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