New vs old

[NemZ]

Because when everything is going well there's nothing to talk about, obviously. But if it's a happy ending you want, might I direct you to EoTV?

[ThanatosII]

I would venture to say classic Greek and Shakespearen tradegies are darker and more grim than Eva. In those stories, most if not all characters die in the end and offer zero hope. EoE is practically a fairytale, honestly. Yui-sama saying anyone can come back alive? That's pretty absurd for a tradegy. If anything, EoE, or Eva in general, is pretty much a dark fairytale. It may not be sunshine and rainbows with a nicely tied together bow ending, but it sure did offer me lots of hope in life by the end.

[JonnyNova]

But I'm tired of tragedy. Tired of things always being 'dark and grim', and hope being a rare and depleting commodity in settings like Eva (this also extends to my opinion of things like the writings of Lovecraft, and to a lesser extent the majority of the Batman Mythos). Real life isn't always dark and grim and eternally full of despair, there's hope at the end of it all. So why do we as writers/artists/audience tend to dwell so much on the dark?

Tragedy is fun. Fun to consume, create, think about, talk about. Its a great way to bring issues deep into the mind where it is forced to deal with them.

Action hero figures out the mystery, stops the bad guy, gets the girl, and saves the world? Makes for a good summer flick but is utterly forgettable. A fragmented soul discovers the true nature of its existence and reality but chooses inexistence instead of salvation? I can't speak for everyone but that is the kind of stuff that keeps me up at night.

[Compiling_Autumn]

The Rebuild series is okay, and I'm glad to see a lot of the Angel fights re-imagined so beautifully, but it doesn't hold a candle to the OG series. Sure, there was a lot of fanservice and pandering in the old series, but it always added up to something. I'm still trying to figure out what the point of Mari's character even is.

Q was better and worse than the two preceding movies, better for showing us a fleshed-out relationship between Shinji and Kaworu (my biggest gripe with the OG series is that they didn't spend enough time developing this), worse for taking EVA in a direction that was thematically weaker than the original series, in my opinion.

[amandaknox]

The Rebuild series is okay, and I'm glad to see a lot of the Angel fights re-imagined so beautifully, but it doesn't hold a candle to the OG series. Sure, there was a lot of fanservice and pandering in the old series, but it always added up to something. I'm still trying to figure out what the point of Mari's character even is.

Q was better and worse than the two preceding movies, better for showing us a fleshed-out relationship between Shinji and Kaworu (my biggest gripe with the OG series is that they didn't spend enough time developing this), worse for taking EVA in a direction that was thematically weaker than the original series, in my opinion.

You have pretty much the same view I have. I liked that 1.0 and 2.22 had filled out a bit more with Shinji acting like a normal boy, showing him doing more in his personal life that didn't always involve a mental breakdown (balance is always good), but yeah, looks like we see the 3rd one pretty much the same way.

What did you all think of the new character? I'm not so sure about her myself.

[Eleven]

Unpopular opininion first: I didn't really like EoE. Out of all of Evangelions incarnations, it is my least favorite one. Regarding the ending, I prefer EoTV.
NTE had a Rei plot I really enjoyed, Rei being my favorite character. But with all that 3rd and 4th and what-not-impact, they lost me... I felt less attached to the characters with every Rebuild movie. Of course I am eager to see Final and still hoping (I know it's pointless, but I can't help it) to see some of Rebuild's mysteries solved.
Still, it was the original TV show, that emotionally touched me the most and so I prefer it over NTE, based on nothing but feeling.

[ThanatosII]

You have pretty much the same view I have. I liked that 1.0 and 2.22 had filled out a bit more with Shinji acting like a normal boy, showing him doing more in his personal life that didn't always involve a mental breakdown (balance is always good), but yeah, looks like we see the 3rd one pretty much the same way.

I believe that's an over exaggeration to say Shinji always had a mental breakdown with his personal life and never had 'normal' moments. The only times Shinji had a mental breakdown;
-Episode 1 where he is instructed to pilot but refuses (same in Jo)
-Episode 4 where he runs away because the pain of piloting after his 2nd Angel fight (same in Jo)
-Episode 18 after seeing Toji injured (he, however, was going to do the same thing we see in Ha where he stomps on NERV HQ; Gendo simply stopped such behavior early in episode 19)
-Some segments after 24 with both EoTV and EoE.

That leaves a pretty big bulk of the series where he's not breaking down. In fact, there are more moments of Shinji being willing to do the job without mental breakdown;
Episode 8 where he helps Asuka open the Angel's mouth
Episode 9 where he gets some level of putting differences aside in order to defeat the Angel in a simultaneous fashion
Episode 10 where he, without hesitation, saves Asuka from drowning followed by a relaxing but humorous day at the hot springs
Episode 11 follows through with Asuka's plan and is successful without hesitation
Episode 12 where he tells himself running away is definitely not an option, especially after realizing how similar him and Misato are; Angel defeated.
Episode 16 where he finally had confidence to take on the Angel. Of course, that works against him.
Episode 19 is pretty much the same as in Ha, excluding Near 3rd Impact, and instead of getting a pep talk from Mari, it's from Kaji. However, it's interesting to point out during a critical moment, Shinji wants Unit 01 to move because he wants to save everyone . Meanwhile in Ha, he doesn't care about anyone else or the world, he only cares about Rei.
Episode 22 where he pleas to help Asuka out. Unfortunately of course Gendo wouldn't allow a sortie.
Episode 23 where he again tries insist on helping Asuka and Rei.
Episode 24, while it was an infamously long pause, he kills Kaworu for everyone's sake and safety. All of this gives credence to his mental breakdown followed after.

NGE!Shinji is given far less credit compared to NTE!Shinji, unfortunately.

[Bagheera]

NGE and EOE are the Anime equivalent of a Greek Tragedy. Shinji Ikari is the modern day tragic hero in the mold of Oedipus. It's great and influential and excellent and informs us of some inherent truth about human nature.

Shinji less tragic than pathetic (in the classical sense of the term). Asuka is a better fit for a tragic character, since she destroys herself in response to the events around her. Each has some elements of both, but that's the way they lean as I see it.

I'm not asking Eva to stop having conflict or angst. I'm just tired of the conflict always ending with everyone (especially Shinji) being worse off for it.

But it doesn't. EoTV ended great for him, Manga ended well for him, Angelic Days ended great for him, Girlfriend of Steel 2 ended great for him, ISRP . . . I don't even know, man, but he seems to be making out pretty well . . . Shinji usually gets pretty damn good endings. EoE's the only one that isn't unambiguously happy thus far, and it's open to interpretation.

EOE has a sliver of hope at the end of it all, but its buried under so much despair, blood and angst I doubt that sliver of hope really would really do any good.

I'm betting the people who get to come back from the dead don't feel that way.

NGE!Shinji is given far less credit compared to NTE!Shinji, unfortunately.

Yeah, NGE!Shinji is actually pretty badass. People only remember EoE, but he had an awful lot of "normal life moments" in NGE, and he was usually in a surprisingly good state of mind (to the point where I found Anno's characterization of him prior to the show to be way off; he was described as a person whose opinion of himself was so low that he couldn't even bring himself to commit suicide, but he acts like a normal, if shy, 14-year-old. A clinically depressed boy he wasn't).

[Glor]

Rebuild is mostly garbage, which seems really hard to do when you have tons of money to make it awesome. Despite the horrendous budget that resulted in drawn out still-shots and camera panning, NGE has more life to it than Rebuild.

Rebuild is a lot like the new character Mari: its nice to look at, but doesn't add anything to the story. Sure, the fights are cool, and the new plot with SEELE and NERV is interesting, but there's nothing else that stands out to me in Rebuild. There's nothing for me to be invested in, other than seeing my fav anime in high-def.

1.0 was mostly copy-pasta, but the divergences from plot had me interested.

2.0, however, is another story. The movie starts, and intro Mari, who actually seems somewhat interesting at this point in the movie. She's not a completely wicked-badass pilot and its a pretty intense struggle to kill the Angel - sacrificing a half-finished Eva-unit to do so. Dayum.

But then everything quickly spirals into a never-ending vortex of mediocrity. The first movie spent the whole time building up the fight with Ramiel, emphasizing how Angels are REALLY hard to kill. This actually reflected the same feel from the original series, where you get the sense that Humanity is barely able to get these giant robots to work right, let alone fight things. But here comes new and shiny 2.0, and here comes Asuka, who kills this new and interesting looking angel with some super-saiyan sky-kick in a matter of seconds. Bam, battle over, no big deal.

What?

If this was to demonstrate Asuka's skill as a pilot, why couldn't it have been done in a manner that still presented the Angels as the big-bad-end-all threat that the first movie kept telling us they were? I guess that fight took a hit on run-time to make room for the mindless fanservice.

The battle with Sahaquiel steered 2.0 back on track, but then the movie went on to delve into Rei's dinner party sub-plot, and an elevator ride where Asuka resolves all of her issues by talking it out in five minutes. Mari eclipses Kaji as a factor in Shinji's life, and its at this point we realize that there really is nothing more to Mari's character other than fanservice and throwing around keywords to make you say "WHAT DOES IT MEAN?" (Especially guilty of this in 3.0)

... I felt less attached to the characters with every Rebuild movie. Of course I am eager to see Final and still hoping (I know it's pointless, but I can't help it) to see some of Rebuild's mysteries solved.
Still, it was the original TV show, that emotionally touched me the most and so I prefer it over NTE, based on nothing but feeling.

Bingo. Evoking emotion is what a good story is supposed to do. The Rebuilds just feel so... disconnected.

After having to suffer through the bland nothing that was 2.0, 3.0 was like a gem. Yeah, the plot is waaaay out there and it still has dumb elements like the WUNDER and ridiculous Eva-morphing in general, and excluding Shinji, the excuse to not age the children was extremely lame. At the same time, it had more character than the second movie, and felt closer to the original series in that regard. That is to say, even if it was forced on me through Shinji's perspective, I was emotionally invested in the characters and the struggle in 3.0.

I've lost any hope of the fourth movie doing much to redeem the Rebuilds. Maybe if it offers something more blatantly hopeful for Shinji and friends. Not saying that EoE did not offer a hopeful ending, but I had to watch it a couple of times and then sift through all of the penetration and symbolism to find the hope.

[ThanatosII]

To be fair, Q ended on a pretty happy note (Evangelion happy). Asuka was all "I'm gonna kill you Shinji!" for much of the movie, but by the end, she is determined to snap Shinji out of his self-defeated expression. Cue all three, Asuka, Shinji, and Rei, walking together.

[Mr. Tines]

Unpopular opininion first: I didn't really like EoE. Out of all of Evangelions incarnations, it is my least favorite one. Regarding the ending, I prefer EoTV.

I'm not sure that EoE is a movie to like, rather than one to admire -- it does what it does exceptionally well, and its emotional content is honest to the point of brutality; but it's not exactly comfortable viewing. That it's such an unflinching exposition to an open ending is what has given the original its sticking power; I don't think that just EoTV by itself, triumphant as it is, would have been anywhere near as controversial.

[Rei IV]

^
A criticism I hear about the recent theatrical movies is how many folks were content with the original NGE. I wonder.... how many folks were satisfied with the just original 26 episode package and felt EoE wasn't necessary.

[Compiling_Autumn]

^
A criticism I hear about the recent theatrical movies is how many folks were content with the original NGE. I wonder.... how many folks were satisfied with the just original 26 episode package and felt EoE wasn't necessary.

I could be missing the point of your question, but I'd argue that part of what drives that criticism is that EoE was (to me and many other people) a very satisfying and conclusive ending to the EVA franchise.

[ThanatosII]

I wonder.... how many folks were satisfied with the just original 26 episode package and felt EoE wasn't necessary.

With my first time experience, given my depressive outlook with life at the time, I really felt satisfied with EoTV. I really had no idea what had happened story wise (somehow Human Instrumentality Project slipped past my radar of being an important plot detail for example), but I genuinely felt Shinji and I went through a long journey, a journey where my lost and confused self vanished once Shinji had his epiphany. I didn't even find out about EoE's existence (knew there were newer movies) until about two days after completing NGE. So in some respect, I walked away from it rather satisfied.

Of course EoE changed everything though. It made me go head over heels to figure out the story bits I was oblivious of at the time.

[Reichu]

A criticism I hear about the recent theatrical movies is how many folks were content with the original NGE. I wonder.... how many folks were satisfied with the just original 26 episode package and felt EoE wasn't necessary.

EoTV was intolerable my first time through; I could only get anything out of it after EoE scratched my more immediate itches. Honestly, if EoE didn't exist, I would have probably just shrugged NGE off as a potentially great anime ruined by a crappy ending and moved the fuck on with my life.

Some folks feel enlightened by the end of 26, but it just rings false to me. Yes, congratulations, you love yourself. All your troubles are surely over! Now take that shit-eating grin and attempt to live the rest of your life without feeling an ounce of self-doubt or -loathing ever again. Because, don't worry, you will.

[Bagheera]

I could be missing the point of your question, but I'd argue that part of what drives that criticism is that EoE was (to me and many other people) a very satisfying and conclusive ending to the EVA franchise.

I watched EoTV and was very confused, but then did some internet research and then said "oh, I see!" and was left satisfied. EoE came later and was an entirely different thing.

[Jäeger]

EoTV was intolerable my first time through; I could only get anything out of it after EoE scratched my more immediate itches. Honestly, if EoE didn't exist, I would have probably just shrugged NGE off as a potentially great anime ruined by a crappy ending and moved the fuck on with my life.

Some folks feel enlightened by the end of 26, but it just rings false to me. Yes, congratulations, you love yourself. All your troubles are surely over! Now take that shit-eating grin and attempt to live the rest of your life without feeling an ounce of self-doubt or -loathing ever again. Because, don't worry, you will.

First time I watched EoTV I enjoyed it......as an experiment. As a proper ending, it was disappointing, because....for me it had no sense. All the loose ties were still there. I enjoyed the psychoanalisis, but it didn´t answer anything about the story. Mixed feelings here. EoE was another story : "OMG OMG now we're dealing with the real shit"

Rebuild, well....I enjoy the movies as a good Mecha show, but it's a very different product than NGE. Being an independent product, it depends too much on NGE to understand the characters and I complain a lot about that, because it feels bland storywriting to me . And each movie....1.11 is just a remake and 2.22........yeah, it has a lot of epic moments, but it's pretty obvious that they had no idea what to do with the characters and the story from the beginning. They had to fit new characters, one of them exclusive, in less than 2 hours and build up an story. The result : A mess . When you improvise (despite you know you are gonna film 4 movies and the time constraint it implies) , it's what happens. 2.0 CRC is the best prove, and whoever doesn't like my opinion about being improvised, I don't care. It yells "I want to keep the original arc and characters, but I want to do different things, What to do, what to do??. I'll scrap two characters to favour "poka poka" and lets compensate with over the top visual effects".

3.33, despite its flaws, It's the better build movie by far, but we have to wait FINAL to make a proper judgment. yeah, some things feel weird, and it's too shinjicentric, but at at least there is coherence as an independent movie.

But Yeah, they are enjoyable movies, but for me pretty inferior to NGE. It's like they were in made with one thought in mind "lets gonna do what we did bad because we were poor and turn the volume up to eleven", but at the same time they forgot what they did the best and what made Eva different than anything we had ever seen before. Sometimes it feels closer to Gurren Lagann than EVA. Of course, I understand those who didn't enjoy NGE like NTE.

[Reichu]

First time I watched EoTV I enjoyed it......as an experiment. As a proper ending, it was disappointing, because....for me it had no sense. All the loose ties were still there. [snip]

I wish I could have been patient enough back then to at least try to enjoy EoTV on its own ... merits. Alas, I was too distracted by the "Adam is really Lilith!" and "everyone has an A.T. Field" and other revelations, and had been waiting with baited breath to see Seele's mysterious plans transpire. According to popular belief, wanting catharsis of the plot more than I want to see the characters sit on folding chairs and talk about their problems for 40 minutes makes me everything that Anno hates. If I am worthy of being loathed on account of thinking that plot and characterization probably shouldn't be mutually exclusive, then all the auteurs of the world can go right ahead.

Sometimes it feels closer to Gurren Lagann than EVA. Of course, I understand those who didn't enjoy NGE like NTE.

Aside from the 2.0 finale, I don't get much of TTGL vibe from ENT. Furthermore, most of those "people who don't like NGE but like ENT" stop liking it around the third installment.

[ThanatosII]

I believe the only surface level of TTGL vibes was how Ha's finale, and by some extension, Jo's finale, felt like a "ROW ROW, FIGHT DA POWER" fist pumping action with tons of explosions, badassery, and a sense of just how bigger than life the action was conveyed. Granted, never was much of a fan of TTGL (action being a focus just isn't my thing), but I can see the connection being made. Q isn't much different, imo, it's just that some people were more distracted by the confusing character development in the same way they see Shinji's yogurt for one time and then proceed to throw away the whole film as trash, even though it provided very well executed action.

[Sorrow]

I watched EoTV and was very confused, but then did some internet research and then said "oh, I see!" and was left satisfied. EoE came later and was an entirely different thing.

I found out about EoE a day after I had finished EoTV. I was confused as to why the style had shifted so drastically from episode 24 to 25, but I understood well enough that it was delving into the psyche of Shinji, at least. I more-or-less concluded that Shinji, having no Angels left to fight, and having been driven to despair over the Kaworu incident, was trying to understand his place in the world, and everyone else within his own.

That was my understanding, until I saw EoE the next day. I somewhat envy those who saw EoE without any context from the show - must have been quite an experience.