SEELE-created Angels

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Atropos
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SEELE-created Angels

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Postby Atropos » Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:06 am

Here's another idea that was proposed in SJ's Eva threads: given that Seele was capable of creating Tabris, who counted as an Angel per the Dead Sea Scrolls (I'm not sure how one goes about fooling ancient prophecies created by alien terraforming agents, but there you go), is it possible that some of the other Angels were created by Seele? Obviously, there's less of a strategic advantage for them to do so when it's not Tabris, besides "Ikari needs to be PUT IN HIS PLACE," but honestly that's good enough reason as Seele gives for anything they do.

Some of the ones proposed in that thread were:
- Matarael: Someone had to set up the blackout for him; otherwise he would've gone down with barely even a fight.
- Iruel: Isn't actually capable of making contact with Adam; however, by seizing control of the Magi it denies NERV one of its trump cards.

Obviously there's no direct evidence in the series for this idea—well, not explicitly; I'd say it's implied in the case of Matarael. But it's an interesting idea, and Anno seems to be making it the case in Rebuild.

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:19 pm

The "creation" of Tabris was un fact very simple: create a normal Lilin body, put inside it the soul of ADAM that was ejected from its body when Second Impact went boom, and voilà! A 17th Angel ready!

As for the two others, again it's doubtful that they were created by SEELE: first by the time Iruel and Matarael attacked, SEELE didn't had yet serious suspicions that Gendo was working against them, and second and more important, Gendo knows about the SDSS, he read them too, so if SEELE created artificial Angels, there would be more than what was written on the scrolls, and Gendo and Fuyu would had commented on it.
Finally, in the off chance that their Angels manage to defeat all of NERV's Evas, either it reaches Lilith and wipe out mankind, or NERV self-destruct the base and Lilith with it, fucking up the HIP for good, too much of a risk to take just to get rid of Gendo.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:50 pm

There's pretty much no way SEELE had any involvement in creating any of the Angels besides Kaworu, and even then that's not the case in my own headcanons.

But yea the Scrolls aren't really a prophecy, SEELE's just interpretting them as such. Technically Rei should probably count as another 17th Angel or something, and the Evangelions should probably be Angels too. And don't forget Lilin.

The numbering and labeling and naming of the Angels is all done by SEELE for their scenario.
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Postby Sorrow » Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:19 pm

I thought the black out was caused so that when the power is rebooted Seele could get a digital map of Nerv headquarters? At least, I think that was the point. It wasn't intended to help any Angel or cause Nerv to be destroyed in that moment, since Seele still needed Nerv for a while longer.

I think actually, Seele needed all the Angels to be destroyed so that when they do initiate third impact, it is with someone/something that they can control, like Kaworu or an Eva. Taking down Angels was Nerv's job.
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Postby Chuckman » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:00 pm

If you pull on it too much, the Seele vs. Nerv plot starts to fall apart. It does not react well to serious scrutiny. Having a spy in the ranks is one thing, but why would they need to steal a map of a place they built? If Gendo is such a pain in the ass, just shoot him. He doesn't do anything anyway. Seele are as amazingly incompetent as Gendo is hilariously lucky.
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Postby Sorrow » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:11 pm

Having a spy in the ranks is one thing, but why would they need to steal a map of a place they built? If Gendo is such a pain in the ass, just shoot him. He doesn't do anything anyway. Seele are as amazingly incompetent as Gendo is hilariously lucky.



Because Gendo was the one who saw to the construction of the base, it was his scientist who created the Magi and it was his team who started work on Evangelions and the disposal of the Angels when they started to appear. I believe he also turned out to be an authority on the Antarctic expedition.

Gendo isn't completely disposable and Seele aren't completely in charge. Gendo has his own contacts, scientific work and accomplices. He's created his entire base and security through Seele's funds. That's more of less what Seele is to Gendo. Funds; a means to an end. He did it by his pretence to work to Seele's intentions and appears to have been successful enough for his own security to be assured by the time they do have their doubts.

Seele can't just have Gendo disposed of, Nerv is his headquarters, and they think (or did for many years) that we was their man in charge. So they don't have anyone there who isn't one of Gendo's, as they think Gendo's men are their men. They later start to doubt this and hence go about the blackout in order to gain information for when they may feel the need to put Gendo and his people in place. Who would dispose of him when they finally start to question his motives? Their most likely candidate is Kaji, but I doubt Gendo would drop his guard around him, as he implies he knows his intentions are not solely towards himself and Kaji himself has implied he would be okay so long as he is useful to GENDO and not Seele. Gendo isn't so easily gotten rid of. He's clearly quite cunning.

Not to mention when they did finally make a move on Gendo, they sent an entire army after they failed to hack the Nerv super computer to end the resolution "peacefully". That is testament enough that when push comes to shove, Gendo is in control of the place and they don't have anyone close enough to him to dispose of him. They had to send a large force to storm the castle.
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Postby Monk Ed » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:36 pm

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:The numbering and labeling and naming of the Angels is all done by SEELE for their scenario.

The numbering, at least, might actually have come from the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Episode 23 wrote:?? (OFF):
At last, we have defeated up through the 16th Angel.

TEXT:
The 5th Angel
Ramiel
The 6th Angel
Gaghiel
The 7th Angel
Israfel
The 8th Angel
Sandalphon

?? (OFF):
That leaves only one Angel described in Seele's Dead Sea Scrolls.

At the very least, according to Seele Tabris was described in the scrolls.
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Postby Atropos » Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:19 pm

View Original PostSorrow wrote:It wasn't intended to help any Angel or cause Nerv to be destroyed in that moment, since Seele still needed Nerv for a while longer.

I don't think Seele was trying to destroy Nerv; it's just a power play. And, in any case, the arrival of the Angel prevented Nerv from ascertaining the true cause of the blackout, so the interpretation still works with that angle.

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Re: SEELE-created Angels

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Postby Bagheera » Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:47 am

View Original PostAtropos wrote:Here's another idea that was proposed in SJ's Eva threads: given that Seele was capable of creating Tabris, who counted as an Angel per the Dead Sea Scrolls (I'm not sure how one goes about fooling ancient prophecies created by alien terraforming agents, but there you go), is it possible that some of the other Angels were created by Seele? Obviously, there's less of a strategic advantage for them to do so when it's not Tabris, besides "Ikari needs to be PUT IN HIS PLACE," but honestly that's good enough reason as Seele gives for anything they do.


They created Tabris' body, same as Nerv created Rei. That's just run of the mill genetic engineering. As for the DSS, it's better to think of them as a manual rather than prophecies per se; once you grok the basics of how Seeds work it's just math to figure out the rest.

- Matarael: Someone had to set up the blackout for him; otherwise he would've gone down with barely even a fight.


It's heavily implied at various points that this was Kaji's doing.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:26 pm

I would disagree in the case of Matarael, but Iruel is a different story.

I think it's actually quite likely that SEELE were involved in the Iruel incident. Note that during the episode Gendo makes a very important point of covering up the Angel's presence. Later in #14, he is actually called up on this by the committee -- who appear well informed -- before Keel dismisses the incident.
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Postby ElMariachi » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:29 am

^
It's probable that SEELE were simply informed by Kaji, remember that during the entire series he was playing both sides against each other to uncover the truth and maybe put them down, the more chaotic the relation between Gendo and SEELE, the better for Kaji.
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Kensuke is a military otaku who, at one point, is shown creepily taking pictures of girls to sell. He would clearly fit right in as an animator at Studio Gainax. -- Compiling_Autumn
EoTV is a therapist, EoE is a drill instructor. -- Chuckman
Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Re: SEELE-created Angels

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:41 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It's heavily implied at various points that this was Kaji's doing.

Kaji was in the elevator the whole time. If it was his doing it would either have to have been set with a timer, or the result of a fairly sizable delayed reaction.

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Postby Bagheera » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:43 am

I'd go with the timer, personally. Alibis and all that.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Meerkat » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:52 pm

^ Maybe Kaji just wanted som "elevator time" with Misato? Maybe that was the reason for the whole blackout and an angel just happened to attack simultaneously? o.O


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