I still don't get it: Eva 01 's role in the TI / HIP?

[Eleven]

Hi there!
This is my very first posting in this forum, so please be indulgent, if I am making any mistakes.
I've read a lot in the older threads, the wiki an other sites about Evangelion, but some things still don't make sense to me. Maybe they just don't, but I don't wanna miss the chance to get answers, if there are any.

What I have understood so far is, that in EoE it is revealed, that Eva01 somehow is Lillith's offspring. Although I don't understand how that happened exactly, but I see that this is a huge debate, which I don't want to start again here.

1) If you pretend, that none of the movies ever existed and you just had to get along with the info from the TV Series, you can not possibly know that, right? I remember no situation during the TV series, that reveals this truth about Eva01. Am I right, or did I muss something?

2) The 3rd impact and therefore HIP is said to be caused by the contact between an angel and Adam. So why does SEELE need Lillith? (And what does Genou need her for? I see, why he needs Rei (clone of Yui and stuff), but why Lillith?)

3) If I ignore the fact, that I don't get why they need Lillith, I still don't know, why SEELE needs an offspring of her (Eva01), when there clearly is the original in Terminal Dogma? Putting together the original body of Adam (the thing in Gendous hand, as far as I understand), which contains the fruit of life and the original Lillith (the fruit of knowledge) would be sufficient, in my understanding?
(That Gendou needs Eva01 because of Yui is not even worth mentioning, but I just want to make clear, that I got (at least *sigh*) this part of the story...)

[Gorbatschow]

1) If you pretend, that none of the movies ever existed and you just had to get along with the info from the TV Series, you can not possibly know that, right? I remember no situation during the TV series, that reveals this truth about Eva01. Am I right, or did I muss something?

The show reveals, that Eva-01 possesses Yui's soul and that she's cloned from Lilith. Actually, the show never provides any information about the nature of the 3rd impact (like GNR, Anti-ATF, etc.) it only speaks about the results of 3I and Instrumentality.

2) The 3rd impact and therefore HIP is said to be caused by the contact between an angel and Adam. So why does SEELE need Lillith? (And what does Genou need her for? I see, why he needs Rei (clone of Yui and stuff), but why Lillith?)

Impact =/= HIP and 3I =/= HIP

HIP starts when Adam and Lilith get connected and therefore the forbidden fusion happen on the highest level. If you only combine parts of the DNA of one and the actual body of the other (e.g. an Angel and Lilith's body or a human and Adam's body like in 2I) a "regular" Impact happens. Consequently Gendo needs:

- Adam's body and soul (One part of the "forbidden fusion")
- Lilith's body and soul (The other part of the "forbidden fusion")
- Rei (As a "proxy" for becoming god (he doesn't want to become one himself) and as a vessel of Lilith's soul)
- EVA-01 (see below)

3) If I ignore the fact, that I don't get why they need Lillith, I still don't know, why SEELE needs an offspring of her (Eva01), when there clearly is the original in Terminal Dogma? Putting together the original body of Adam (the thing in Gendous hand, as far as I understand), which contains the fruit of life and the original Lillith (the fruit of knowledge) would be sufficient, in my understanding?
(That Gendou needs Eva01 because of Yui is not even worth mentioning, but I just want to make clear, that I got (at least *sigh*) this part of the story...)

They need EVA-01 for two reasons:

1. The Tree of Life. The ToF creates the Anti-ATF and therefore is necessary for launching Instrumentality.

2. (This one is a bit cryptic and probably dependent on the way you "fanwank") To fuse the souls together, respectively PreInstrumentalities events

.

We don't know why exactly an offspring of Lilith is need, so I mostly go with "Well, that's just how Instrumentality works.

[AuraTwilight]

What I have understood so far is, that in EoE it is revealed, that Eva01 somehow is Lillith's offspring. Although I don't understand how that happened exactly, but I see that this is a huge debate, which I don't want to start again here.

Basically, the other Evas are clones of Adam, but Unit 01 is derived from Lilith as an experiment.

1) If you pretend, that none of the movies ever existed and you just had to get along with the info from the TV Series, you can not possibly know that, right? I remember no situation during the TV series, that reveals this truth about Eva01. Am I right, or did I muss something?

It's KINDA implied. But this doesn't really matter since the series was always sort of meant to incorporate an event like the movies and we only got the end of he anime we did do to Real Life Writing the Plot (budget concerns).

2) The 3rd impact and therefore HIP is said to be caused by the contact between an angel and Adam. So why does SEELE need Lillith? (And what does Genou need her for? I see, why he needs Rei (clone of Yui and stuff), but why Lillith?)

An Impact is any sort of event involving contact with Adam or Lilith. HIP is simply one specific scenario that SEELE wants.

If Adam and Lilith are fused together, it will create a being that is nearly omnipotent, stronger than the sum of its parts. SEELE wants to use such a being to fuse all of humanity into a single lifeform they would consider God. Rei contains Lilith's soul, so Gendo's plan was effectively to get on her good-side, fuse with her using Adam, and take control of the Adam/Lilith fused being for his OWN agenda, which is to reunite with Yui.

3) If I ignore the fact, that I don't get why they need Lillith, I still don't know, why SEELE needs an offspring of her (Eva01), when there clearly is the original in Terminal Dogma? Putting together the original body of Adam (the thing in Gendous hand, as far as I understand), which contains the fruit of life and the original Lillith (the fruit of knowledge) would be sufficient, in my understanding?
(That Gendou needs Eva01 because of Yui is not even worth mentioning, but I just want to make clear, that I got (at least *sigh*) this part of the story...)

They refer to Unit 01 as a spare...as in, if Lilith is unusable. Such as if Gendo has control of it. Unit 01 is more important to Gendo, though, because yea, Yui.

Bear in mind that the scenario that took place in the film didn't exactly follow the plans of SEELE or Gendo. Rei rebelling against the latter and taking control of the Adam/Lilith godbeing in order to be Shinji's personal genie really messed up everything for everyone's plans (Though SEELE almost got what they wanted anyway).

[Eleven]

Wow, thanks for anwering so quickly!
So let's see, how far I can follow you through this.

The show reveals, that Eva-01 possesses Yui's soul and that she's cloned from Lilith.

It does? Where exactly? Can you tell me the episode/the scene/ or at least the character saying that? I must have totally missed it. All I remember is the statement of SEELE at the beginning of EoE.

They need EVA-01 for two reasons:

1. The Tree of Life. The ToF creates the Anti-ATF and therefore is necessary for launching Instrumentality.

2. (This one is a bit cryptic and probably dependent on the way you "fanwank") To fuse the souls together, respectively PreInstrumentalities events

What is meant by ToF? Was it just a typing error and means Tree of Life? (ToL)

I thought, the Anti-ATF was created by Lillith and Adam by their symbiosis? As far as I can remember, there also was an Anti-ATF at SI (a weaker one, though) and there was nor Tree of Life. (And no Lillith, by the way. So Adam can create an Anti-ATF alone? Or at least by fusing with a human DNA?)
With the events on SI on mind, the Tree of Life thing does not make sense to me, unless there is more I don't know or forgot about.

To fuse the souls together? Hm, doesn't GNR (the big Adam+Lillith thing) collect the souls in her black "egg"?

By the way, these are all things, that take place in EoE. During the series, EVA01 seems even more useless to me, as we see none of all that happen and no one (in the series itself) gives a good explanation why SEELE wants EVA01.

Consequently Gendo needs:

- Adam's body and soul (One part of the "forbidden fusion")
- Lilith's body and soul (The other part of the "forbidden fusion")
- Rei (As a "proxy" for becoming god (he doesn't want to become one himself) and as a vessel of Lilith's soul)
- EVA-01 (see below)

Why doesn't he want to become one himself? What's the disadavanteg for him?

They refer to Unit 01 as a spare...as in, if Lilith is unusable. Such as if Gendo has control of it. Unit 01 is more important to Gendo, though, because yea, Yui.

That sounds logical to me. So they need either Lillith OR Eva01.

Rei contains Lilith's soul, so Gendo's plan was effectively to get on her good-side, fuse with her using Adam, and take control of the Adam/Lilith fused being for his OWN agenda, which is to reunite with Yui.

Badabam, I'm confused again.
If in HIP all human beings are fused into one - Gendou will be reunited with Yui anyway. Or does he want to reunite with Yui exclusively and shut everyone else out? But if so, why does he need all components of the HIP and doesn't just go ahead and stick his Adam-Hand into Eva01? Or simply re-enacts the experiment, that made Yui (and later Shinji) disapper on Eva01? What exactly does Lillith do for him?
To be honest, I was never able to distinguish the different Scenario's of Yui+Genou-Fuyutski in the beginning / Gendou after Yui's "death" and SEELE...

[Sephizim]

I thought, the Anti-ATF was created by Lillith and Adam by their symbiosis? As far as I can remember, there also was an Anti-ATF at SI (a weaker one, though) and there was nor Tree of Life. (And no Lillith, by the way. So Adam can create an Anti-ATF alone? Or at least by fusing with a human DNA?)
With the events on SI on mind, the Tree of Life thing does not make sense to me, unless there is more I don't know or forgot about.

Once again, 3I and HIP are not different words for the same thing. Third Impact is any catastrophic event that would occur from Adam/Lilith fusion after Second Impact. The Human Instrumentality Project is Seele's attempt to engineer 3I in a specific way that ends in their favor. The Tree of Life is essential for HIP (most likely because, with a human at the center of the ToL, it means that humanity and its fate is the epicenter of this event), but it is not essential for 3I, as it was not for 2I. The Anti-ATF may or may not be an essential part of an Impact, but that is debatable. The fusion of Adam and Lilith in 2I was likely the contact between Adam and a single Lilin (child of Lilith), much like how contact between Lilith and an Angel (child of Adam) would create an Impact. Just not one on the scale of the one we see in EoE.

[Gorbatschow]

It does? Where exactly? Can you tell me the episode/the scene/ or at least the character saying that? I must have totally missed it. All I remember s the statement of SEELE at the beginning of EoE.

I'm currently at my cellphone and not able to look it up. I'm going to edit it in tomorrow. The wiki will probably provide the answer, but If I'm not entirely wrong it was Rituko in Episode ~22 (Rei-Quarium)

What is meant by ToF? Was it just a typing error and means Tree of Life? (ToL)

Less of a typing and more of a thinking error. I meant ToL.

I thought, the Anti-ATF was created by Lillith and Adam by their symbiosis? As far as I can remember, there also was an Anti-ATF at SI (a weaker one, though) and there was nor Tree of Life. (And no Lillith, by the way. So Adam can create an Anti-ATF alone? Or at least by fusing with a human DNA?)
With the events on SI on mind, the Tree of Life thing does not make sense to me, unless there is more I don't know or forgot about.

As I interpret it, the ToL generates the Anti-ATF, after GNR / the symbiosrs rose in order to initiate Instrumentality. The ToL is GNR's tool. I'm not sure what you're referring to by SI.

To fuse the souls together? Hm, doesn't GNR (the big Adam+Lillith thing) collect the souls in her black "egg"?

By the way, these are all things, that take place in EoE. During the series, EVA01 seems even more useless to me, as we see none of all that happen and no one (in the series itself) gives a good explanation why SEELE wants EVA01.

The souls fuse together in the egg and complete each other, that's the concept of Instrumentality. Eva-01 is pre-3I just used as a regular a Eva, but is needed during the, not fully explained, procedure of Instrumentality.

If you're referring to the results and the nature of Instrumentality, it's talked about what happens during and after the fusing through the show rather often (souls becoming one, etc.) ,but it's never talked about how excactly it happens. (The forbidden fusion, although is implied)

Why doesn't he want to become one himself? What's the disadavanteg for him?

Everything he does has the goal to meet Yui again (That's why planned on betraying SEELE ) and if he becomes God, he won't be able to be part of Instrumentality and is damned to be "only" the ruler over it.

To sum it up: IMO they need EVA-01 to provide the rising Adam/Lilith-God the tool to create the ToL, which is needed to create the Anti-ATF, which is needed to collect and later fuse the souls.

Also what Sephizim said is rather important.You could sum it up this way:

-Combination of traces of Lilith's DNA and Adam's body causes a small impact.

-Combination of traces of Adam's DNA and Lilith's body causes a small impact.

-Combination of Adam and Lilith causes a huge impact and creates a God.

-The God can do the stuff that happens in EoE.

[Mr. Tines]

It does? Where exactly? Can you tell me the episode/the scene/ or at least the character saying that? I must have totally missed it. All I remember is the statement of SEELE at the beginning of EoE.

It's only shown in the Reiquarium image montage in the pre-Renewal (where Platinum = Renewal) "Director's Cut" release of episode 23



or, unobscured, in various supplemental sources.

[pwhodges]

The image links in that thread are broken - a legacy of the server move, perhaps? The Reiquarium images summary page is here: [url]http://wiki.evageeks.org/Analysis_of_the_Episode_23'_Reiquarium_Images[/url] (making that a proper link breaks the forum software as well).

[Eleven]

Once again, 3I and HIP are not different words for the same thing. Third Impact is any catastrophic event that would occur from Adam/Lilith fusion after Second Impact. The Human Instrumentality Project is Seele's attempt to engineer 3I in a specific way that ends in their favor.

That it clear to me. I was referring to what gorbatschow wrote here:

The ToF creates the Anti-ATF and therefore is necessary for launching Instrumentality.

Gorbatschow sais here, that the tree of life was needed to create an ATF. All I was saying was, that an ATF (independent from Instrumentality) does not need a tree of life.
Was I able to explain myself now? As I said, my english is not as good as I wished it was...

The Tree of Life is essential for HIP (most likely because, with a human at the center of the ToL, it means that humanity and its fate is the epicenter of this event), but it is not essential for 3I, as it was not for 2I.

The Anti-ATF may or may not be an essential part of an Impact, but that is debatable.

Really debatable? Isn't the Anti-ATF what causes the human body to dissolve and what neutralizes the ATF? In my understanding, neutralizing the ATFs between people means neutralizing the borderline between "you" and "me". And isn't that exactly what instrumentality does? Fuesing all humans to one single being without borders?

If I may quote Gorbatschow again:

the Anti-ATF, which is needed to collect and later fuse the souls

As for the rest, I am too tired right now.
Just two things:

By "SI" I meant Second Impact.

What "Instrumentality" means is more or less clear to me.

Thanks for the Screenshot from the Rei-quarium. So there is no one in the series actually saying "we cloned EVA01 from Lillith". That's all I wanted to know.
[/quote]

[thewayneiac]

The show reveals, that Eva-01 possesses Yui's soul and that she's cloned from Lilith.

It does? Where exactly? Can you tell me the episode/the scene/ or at least the character saying that? I must have totally missed it. All I remember is the statement of SEELE at the beginning of EoE.

It occurs to me that there may be some confusion here. I think Gorbatschow was trying to say that Unit-01 was cloned from Lilith, not that Yui was cloned from Lilith, if that's how you were interpreting his comment. The Evas are sometimes referred to as "she" here because of their female souls.

[Sephizim]

Gorbatschow sais here, that the tree of life was needed to create an ATF. All I was saying was, that an ATF (independent from Instrumentality) does not need a tree of life.

I think what was meant that an Anti-ATF that isn't created by Lilith or Adam requires the ToL. Either that, or the ToL is needed to create an Anti-ATF on a global scale, powerful enough to tear down all ATFs.

Really debatable? Isn't the Anti-ATF what causes the human body to dissolve and what neutralizes the ATF? In my understanding, neutralizing the ATFs between people means neutralizing the borderline between "you" and "me". And isn't that exactly what instrumentality does? Fuesing all humans to one single being without borders?

An Anti-ATF is certainly necessary for Instrumentality, yes, but it may or may not be for a minor Impact, like Second Impact.

So there is no one in the series actually saying "we cloned EVA01 from Lillith". That's all I wanted to know.

Also, at the beginning of EoE, Keel describes Unit-01 as the offspring of Lilith (or something to that effect, I can't recall at the moment).

[Gorbatschow]

Regarding the ToL and Anti-ATF-confusion:

We don't know whether or not an Anti-ATF requires the ToL, but what we do know is, that Instrumentality requiriere the ToL and an Anti-ATF.

Also Instrumentality requires 3I (in order to create a god that is able to fuse the souls), but 3I doesn't necessarily cause Instrumentality.

[Bagheera]

We don't know whether or not an Anti-ATF requires the ToL, but what we do know is, that Instrumentality requiriere the ToL and an Anti-ATF.

No, incorrect. We do know that the anti-ATF does not require the ToL because we see Adam creating one in 21. It is also likely that the ToL has little, if anything to do with Instrumentality. Creating such does not appear to have been a part of Seele's plans, and they were ready and willing to proceed with the HIP even without the Lance (which is required to create the ToL). Instead the ToL appears to be related to Yui's apotheosis, which is confusing since that event takes place in tandem with both 3I and Instrumentality. But it's actually a separate event only tangentially related to the other two.

[Gorbatschow]

No, incorrect. We do know that the anti-ATF does not require the ToL because we see Adam creating one in 21.

Forgot that. Thanks for correction.

[AuraTwilight]

Badabam, I'm confused again.
If in HIP all human beings are fused into one - Gendou will be reunited with Yui anyway. Or does he want to reunite with Yui exclusively and shut everyone else out? But if so, why does he need all components of the HIP and doesn't just go ahead and stick his Adam-Hand into Eva01? Or simply re-enacts the experiment, that made Yui (and later Shinji) disapper on Eva01? What exactly does Lillith do for him?
To be honest, I was never able to distinguish the different Scenario's of Yui+Genou-Fuyutski in the beginning / Gendou after Yui's "death" and SEELE...

Gendo doesn't want to become a singular being with Yui; he wants to be able to be with her again as a pair, like they had in the past. He also has no interest in uniting with other people.

SEELE refer to Gendo's plans as using Unit 01 as an 'ark', and like in Noah's, you're supposed to get off the Ark someday. The implication is he would've subverted the process by having everyone go inside it, then make everyone leave, INCLUDING Yui. Or maybe he would stay inside with Yui but kick everyone out.

Point is Gendo seems to need to disembody everyone atleast temporarily to get what he wants, because Yui's like, REALLY stuck in there. She is as wedged in there as it gets, like woah.

[NemZ]

He thinks she's stuck in there and everything he's done has been a grand scheme to rescue her, but that's only because nobody bothered to tell him she was doing this on purpose.

Poor Gendo.

[Eleven]

It occurs to me that there may be some confusion here. I think Gorbatschow was trying to say that Unit-01 was cloned from Lilith, not that Yui was cloned from Lilith, if that's how you were interpreting his comment. The Evas are sometimes referred to as "she" here because of their female souls.

Thanks for trying to help, but that wasn't how I interpreted it. I got that part.

No, incorrect. We do know that the anti-ATF does not require the ToL because we see Adam creating one in 21.

Exactly what I wrote earlier. I am glad I was right about this.

It is also likely that the ToL has little, if anything to do with Instrumentality. Creating such does not appear to have been a part of Seele's plans, and they were ready and willing to proceed with the HIP even without the Lance (which is required to create the ToL).

Why did the Lance return anyway? What caused this? Is that stated anywhere in the movie, or do we have to speculate about it?


I think, I pretty much got the info I was looking for. At least I have gotten some convincing ideas now. Thank you guys!
I hope it's okay, if I keep posting further questions (like the lance) in this thread, or am I supposed to open new ones for each question?

[Bagheera]

Why did the Lance return anyway? What caused this? Is that stated anywhere in the movie, or do we have to speculate about it?

The Lance returned when Yui activated her S2 engine. The inference is that she was close enough to becoming a "god", or rather a SoL, that the Lance reverted to its primary directive and aimed to incapacitate/subdue her. Somehow, Yui managed to keep it at bay: she clearly submitted utterly to it, and perhaps this was enough to convince it she wasn't out for a power grab. But whatever the particulars it played along with her schemes, apparently worked with GNR to invest Yui with Lilith's power, and accompanied her on her journey away from Earth.

I hope it's okay, if I keep posting further questions (like the lance) in this thread, or am I supposed to open new ones for each question?

Use the search function at the top of the page to see if there's already a topic discussing your question. If there is it would be better to post there than create a new one or continue posting here.