"Masculine Protest"?

[Gob Hobblin]

Actually, I just thought of something else based on your last statement, Bagheera: that if you encountered Shinji and Rei, you would treat them that way and say, "Why not? They deserve it."

This is a bullying mentality, because I use the same frigging justification if I bully someone. Generally, my line of thinking is "This person is an ignorant racist/misogynist/whatever, they deserve me hounding them." If, however, they are clearly incapable of defending themselves (and a lot of the times, they are), then that makes me a bully: I'm figuratively pounding on someone who is weaker than me because they deserve it.

That doesn't change the fact I've become a bully. And I'm not using that as a metaphor, I literally do this and am trying hard to stop. My wife pointed it out to me, and I became extremely angry and defensive about it. Which generally means I was in the wrong and didn't want to BE wrong.

Asuka can justify her behavior all she wants, but in the end she is victimizing someone who cannot or will not stand up for themselves.

[Bagheera]

When you meet someone for the first time, you initially apply a "label" on them that determines your level of thinking about them for a good portion of your time with them.

When Shinji first met Asuka, what was the first thing she said to him? "Not much to look at.", which is still an insult.

Maybe "bully" wouldn't be the first label that came to Shinji's mind after that encounter, but it definitely was a negative connotation.

My point is that we're the ones applying labels here, so we're the ones who have to justify them. And I don't think calling Shinji "idiot" or Rei "Wonder Girl" qualifies, personally, but mileage obviously varies on that point.

And as to narcissists vs. histrionics, the lack of self-love is why the histrionic type even exists in the first place. Asuka is a perfect fit for that, so calling her a narcissist is a reach.

Actually, I just thought of something else based on your last statement, Bagheera: that if you encountered Shinji and Rei, you would treat them that way and say, "Why not? They deserve it."

Not so much. It's more "OMFG, WTF is your problem?" Shinji's in "lol whatevs" territory, but Rei is a serious liability to anyone with a military mindset (as I'm sure you can attest). If I'm expected to rely on this person in life or death situations and she says that I'm gonna wig out. I'd be surprised if anyone in a similar position didn't react in like fashion.

[Gob Hobblin]

It's neither here or there: in fact, she can be both, and we may be arguing over nothing. Histronics can have comorbidity with a wide range of mental disorders, including depression, bipolar disorder, and narcissism.

Remember, mental disorders are rarely one or the other: a person is never 'just' a narcissist. And while it's not the whole picture with me labeling Asuka a narcissist, it's not wrong, either. She is a narcissist: she is also a histrionic. Or she's one, or the other, or neither and simply a collection of other issues that combine to make the appearance of a histrionic or narcissist.



That being said, she is most likely a histrionic with narcissism.

As for your statement, you would probably do it once and be done with it. Asuka does it all the time. If I had these three in my unit, I would focus more on Asuka than the other two because she is engaging in behavior that is actively disrupting unit cohesion. Shinji and Rei have their own problems, but Asuka is the one behaving in malignant fashion: the ones in our unit who behave like her tend to be the ones with the most counseling statements (and that's not a good thing). I do NOT act like Asuka when in uniform: recognizing those aspects of myself are key to being a good Soldier and a good officer by not allowing them to interfere with my duty.

As for Rei...I would actually be okay with someone like her under my command. She is decisive, follows orders, and places the mission first. She is the ideal private. That doesn't mean I wouldn't counsel her excessively (her behavior is to a degree self-destructive, and her lack of ambition would also be a hindrance...someone as skilled as her NEEDS ambition to promote, and better affect a wider range of people with her skills).

[KingXanaduu]

My point is that we're the ones applying labels here, so we're the ones who have to justify them. And I don't think calling Shinji "idiot" or Rei "Wonder Girl" qualifies, personally, but mileage obviously varies on that point.

In a sense, you've answered your own question. Just as we shouldn't label Asuka as a "bully and/or bitch", we also shouldn't apply labels such as "idiot and/or baka" to Shinji or "Wonder girl and/or Doll" to Rei either. But, Asuka still did label them, CONSTANTLY, and it still hurt them in the end.

Not so much. It's more "OMFG, WTF is your problem?" Shinji's in "lol whatevs" territory, but Rei is a serious liability to anyone with a military mindset (as I'm sure you can attest).

And how exactly is Shinji in the "lol whatevs" category? He's more of a "......" brooder.

[Kendrix]

Actually, I just thought of something else based on your last statement, Bagheera: that if you encountered Shinji and Rei, you would treat them that way and say, "Why not? They deserve it."

THIS.

ANY shoolyard asshole would say they were provoked or had social pressure.
I mean, I don't know enough about Bagheera to make an assumption about what he means by that, wether he would just not see a problem with it or actually go and see treating people like this as the only acceptable way, but... yeah. Gob Hobblin in right.

In the end, you can define "what irks you" however you want.
Most extreme/obvious example: "You depicttion of this ancient politician I revere as a prophet irks me. I will now kill your ass because I see it as the only acceptable reaction. It's their own fault for acting that way."
That doesn't mean that there aren't things that should irk you/be dispised, but what you put in that cathegory will reflect on you for better or for worse.

Even if someine IS "provoking" that doesn't mean there aren't any limits to what you're allowed to do to them, or that you're excused from basic human decency.

How can you look at ANY person who's just going about their day or even trying to be nice to you, and think, "They deserve to be made to feel awful?"
They were just merely existing around her, even being nice in Shinji's and Misato's case, surely not showing any overt animosity in Rei's, and she goes and belittles, insults and in Shinji's case even hits them at her whim, and mostly to make herself feel more superior.

If you can look at episodes 12 or 11, and not see the bullying, we might as well be speaking different languages at each other.

Just let me tell you one thing: Being bullied HURTS. Even just the slide little remarks. It's the consistence of it.

[Bagheera]

Gob: Honestly, the only way I can see Asuka as a narcissist is by ignoring half the traits that make her a histrionic. There's overlap, yes, but most people have some amount of narcissism going for them (it's even healthy up to a point). But looking at the two disorders histrionic is a much better fit for what we see described in the show.

[Gob Hobblin]

As I said, narcissism and histrionic behavior have comorbidity: you can have both. Or, narcissism and another issue that combines to look like histrionic behavior. I've already said a lot on that, though, so I won't repeat myself.

[Bagheera]

As I said, narcissism and histrionic behavior have comorbidity: you can have both. Or, narcissism and another issue that combines to look like histrionic behavior. I've already said a lot on that, though, so I won't repeat myself.

I take your point, but I think you have it backwards: Asuka tests positive for every single trait on the histrionic checklist, and I think that combined with her pride issues produces results that occasionally look like narcissism. But given her self-loathing, the fact she extends privileged status to others (albeit grudgingly), and the fact that she very explicitly does not buy what she's selling I can't see true narcissism at work in her character.

[Chuckman]

Asuka would fit in with a horde of viking berserkers charging through the surf to butcher their enemies. Except she's a little short.

[Gob Hobblin]

It's one of the ways I think she has a 'masculine' style of shielding (or at least an over-engineered 'masculine' ego, in this sense the traditional 'masculine' idea of being forward and aggressive). I understand why Asuka is the way she is, and I don't think she's evil for being ugly. It's not because the people around her deserve to be treated that way, but because she has warped tools for trying to build herself and defend herself.

Asuka suffers from severe self-loathing, and she's angry. All the time. There was a period (actually, I was fourteen when I went through that...probably should have watched Evangelion when I was fourteen) when I was ANGRY ALL THE TIME, and I know I went through strong up and down periods of self-loathing. You are ugly to people, and you don't know why. You have a compulsive need to be.

I think I covered a lot of that in the stuff I said on Asuka being a bully, though. To me, it makes her a more sympathetic character, just because I feel I can empathize with some of those drives, and understand how much harder it makes things for her (when they could be easier).

[Doublegee]

Where are you living that women have the advantage over men?

The entire Anglosphere and most of Europe and Russia come to mind. I hear that sexism is still a problem in Italy.

I mean, here in the States, there is wage disparity

Not when you compare apples to apples. Women just tend to gravitate toward lower-paid jobs while men become the engineers and lawyers. Within each profession, they get paid almost perfectly the same (women actually get paid a little more but the difference is within the margins of statistical error).

continued arguments over the rights women have to their own reproduction...

Contraception is legal literally everywhere in the world and nobody is suggesting that this should change. You must be thinking about arguments over something else.

hell, I can give you a list of everything in the MILITARY that demonstrates the sheer disparity women there suffer (being in the military myself, I can attest to a lot of that).

Please tell me when the Selective Service Act was amended to include women. Wikipedia doesn't have any information on the matter.

[Monk Ed]

I left that tangent where it was because I thought it had died on its own. I even considered deleting it, or at least graveyarding it, lest it bait further off-topic discussion. Now it seems I've made a mistake and I should have done that. Let's please keep this topic about NGE and especially Asuka.