[CI] Details of the Human Instrumentality Project: D

[NemZ]

So the complimented soul of all humanity can't deal with it, but somehow she expects to be fine just wandering off into the galaxy with the vague notion that 'anywhere can be a heaven' and all that crap.

What makes her so special (or is she just nuts already...), and what prevents her from bringing that solo survival coping mechanism into the mix if it happens as planned?

[gchristnsn]

So the complimented soul of all humanity can't deal with it, but somehow she expects to be fine just wandering off into the galaxy with the vague notion that 'anywhere can be a heaven' and all that crap.

I don't think so. She knows that she will suffer.

What makes her so special (or is she just nuts already...), and what prevents her from bringing that solo survival coping mechanism into the mix if it happens as planned?

She doesn't want Shinji and the rest of Humanity to suffer in eternal solitude. So, she sacrifices herself by betraying her son and husband. She may think that there is no road back after this betrayal and chooses exile. All would be well with Shinji, because he found a way to not to be alone. This also may be necessary to make Unit 01 unavailable for anyone.

[Shinoyami65]

Yui does state that the person in Eva will be very lonely, but that Eva itself will continue to exist for eternity. So she knows she will be alone for eternity, but continues to remain in Eva as a testimony of humanity's existence and progress.

Of course, there are some theories around that Yui/Eva-01 has advanced to Seed of Life status, and that by taking the Lance of Longinus and heading into the void she is planning to become the goddess of another planet (as well as the possibility that she planned all of the events of NGE to facilitate her ascension to Godhood), but there is very little to support that notion in the show.

[gchristnsn]

^ She also states at the ep. 21 that all what she's doing is for the sake of Shinji. So, it's obvious, that she is altruistic actually because she wants to leave Humanity as-is.


[edit]

Since no one is interested in further discussion, I assume that all is clear now about the section D.
You may have better ideas about what to do with wiki, because the canonicity warning was definitely better idea than my one.
It's probably worth to consult a bearer of the language on the last sentence, because the last part is most likely under the context of the whole section (i.e. Nerv's elite is meant), and the first part may imply usage of Seele's man-made god (MPEs) or Seele's views on Gendo's man-made god (Unit-01). So, I assume that I'm done what is possible in this thread.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Sorry to bring the discussion back on topic, but I still have major problems with Section D. To wit.

Misato:
Having reached its limit as a colony of flawed and separate entities,
Humankind is to be artificially evolved into a perfect single being.
The Instrumentality Project...

---

SEELE 09:
We have no intention of giving up our human forms simply to enter the Ark called Eva.
SEELE 12:
It is merely a rite of passage... To bring about the rebirth in those who are imprisoned.
SEELE 05(?):
The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth.
SEELE 04(?):
A sacrament to unite God, humans, and all other life forms in death.

---

SEELE ALL:
Return the Eva series to its rightful form.
Evangelize humankind and restore us to our true form.
With indiscriminate death and prayers, we return to our original state.
KEEL:
And let all souls find peace.
Now, let the sacrament begin!

---

KEEL:
The beginning and the end are as one.
Good... Everything is as it should be...

---

Rei:
This is the sea of LCL... The primordial soup of life.
A world without AT Fields... without your own shape.
An ambiguous world where it is impossible to tell where you end and other people start.
A fragile world where you exist everywhere, and thus exist nowhere.
Shinji: Have I died?
Rei:
No, everything has just been joined into one.
This is the world you have been hoping for... your world.

I still find all of this impossible to reconcile with the statement

Seele's intention for this man-made god is to guide the elite (themselves) to state near that of God's.

Could people focus for a moment on this the apparently fundamental contradiction between this HIP statement and what is said in the show?

[gchristnsn]

@ObsessiveMathsFreak

You would easily reconcile all this quotation from the show with CI if you assume that Seele's goal is only the section C. Section D describes Gendo's plan, and Nerv's elite (Gendo) is mentioned in the phrase you can't reconcile. If you accept this, everything fully reconciles with everything, and the contradiction originates from the not completely correct translation of the very subtle last sentence, the last part of which (you may note, that the Japanese sentence is separated by comma) is under context of the whole section D (Nerv is meant under "people" at the whole section D, as the steps of the plan suggest), so Nerv elite is meant. I talk the last half of the thread about this. I may only guess how to translate it correctly, so I can't help with this.

[edit]

Since I have strange feeling that I'm ignored by anyone with this idea, I'll explain how to verify it.
It's possible to easily verify that the section C completely reconciles with ObsessiveMathsFreak's EoE quote.

But the section D should be put against Gendo's plan:

"While the Angels were being engaged in battle, people were also making and advancing the plan for the path that leads to divinity." - Nerv's (Gendo's) secret plan of complementation inside Unit-01 is described here (Nerv is the people who fight angels). [ok]

"The first step is the completion of Eva — the body of a god and throne of a soul — via the installation of an S² Engine." - the accident with 01, when the unit devoured Angel's S2 Engine. Seele fear and don't need this. [ok]

"The interfusion of souls follows." - Gendo's reunion with Yui and probably Shinji because he is also in the unit. Seele's MPEs may be used for this, as Gendo states at the meeting with Seele. [ok]

"Afterward, our final natural enemy, the Spear of Longinus security device, is annihilated. Thus, that which is nearly divine, or perhaps a god in and of itself, is brought to completion, and, with the Spear gone, cannot be destroyed by anyone." - The lance is the best friend of Seele. [edit: Gendo tries to throw the lance to the Moon, and here the already thrown lance may be described.] [ok]

The last sentence now. No problems if it's interpreted the both ways and Nerv's "elite" is supposed here:

"Using Seele's man-made god, the elite (themselves) intended to obtain state near that of God's"
"According to Seele, this man-made god was intended to guide the elite (themselves) to state near that of God's"

As we see, nothing prevents to put Nerv under the context, and this is the only way to interpret it without contradictions with the show, because we know that Gendo intended to complement in the FAR-like 01 and Seele didn't intended to use 01 and feared its advancement to a FAR-like being. The problem only with the translation of the last sentence.

[K40s]

What I get is that Seele wanted to fuse all the souls of both angels and lilin but they didn't want to just put them in an ark again, what would basically be getting rid of Adam, Lilith and all their children and put both sets of souls together in a single new ark/seed instead of two (adam and lilith), they wanted to be reborn in their true form, maybe thay wanted to get complimented and reborn into a FAR individual? and rule not only over lilin but angels as well all in the form of FAR individuals.

[gchristnsn]

What I get is that Seele wanted to fuse all the souls of both angels and lilin...

I guess, you mean "A sacrament to unite God, humans, and all other life forms in death.", but this is a yet another subtle quote which translation is questionable. It actually may mean "For the sake of God, humans, and all other..." or I encountered interpretation that humans and other lifeforms should meet with God, which reconciles with Yui's concept about departure to Heaven.

but they didn't want to just put them in an ark again, what would basically be getting rid of Adam, Lilith and all their children and put both sets of souls together in a single new ark/seed instead of two (adam and lilith), they wanted to be reborn in their true form, maybe thay wanted to get complimented and reborn into a FAR individual? and rule not only over lilin but angels as well all in the form of FAR individuals.

As it was explained, they could not target a FAR-like being because this is Gendo's plan and they oppose it and don't need 01. They clearly say that humanity should retain its form.

[Shinoyami65]

I guess, you mean "A sacrament to unite God, humans, and all other life forms in death.", but this is a yet another subtle quote which translation is questionable. It actually may mean "For the sake of God, humans, and all other..." or I encountered interpretation that humans and other lifeforms should meet with God, which reconciles with Yui's concept about departure to Heaven.

Do you mean when Yui says that any place can become Heaven if one believes in oneself? That's talking about Shinji coping in the post-3I world, not an actual metaphysical transportation to Heaven.

The only real beings that can be considered "God" in NGE are the Seeds of Life (Adam and Lilith), the awakened Eva-01 with both Fruits and the FAR. There isn't some sort of higher god or power directing the events, nor do any parties express a desire to actually try to find "Heaven".

[gchristnsn]

Do you mean when Yui says that any place can become Heaven if one believes in oneself? That's talking about Shinji coping in the post-3I world, not an actual metaphysical transportation to Heaven.

The only real beings that can be considered "God" in NGE are the Seeds of Life (Adam and Lilith), the awakened Eva-01 with both Fruits and the FAR. There isn't some sort of higher god or power directing the events, nor do any parties express a desire to actually try to find "Heaven".

If you follow the thread, I explained that Seele believe that they depart to heven being complemented into Adam Kadmon, because they are a RELIGIOUS SOCIETY, Yui doesn't believe this and tries to prevent the complementation to a being in the real world (which obviously would really happen), which would result in eternal solitude for this being. Her words is indirect evidence of Seele's religious nature.

[Monk Ed]

gchristnsn, if you think that part of the CI is being misinterpreted as conflicting with the show for the reasons you've stated, then what about the so-called Seele's Happy End from the same game? Do you see a resolution to the apparent conflict between that ending and Seele's stated goal in the show?

[gchristnsn]

As you know, there are even places in NGE itself which allow free use of context (Kaworu's words, for example). As it was explained, you saw that souls of entire Humanity were entering and exiting the egg in the show, and there were no traces of Seele's presence in Unit-01. Because Keel states that everything has gone well, there are no reasons to think that the souls of entire Humanity including Seele departed somewhere else. Because Seele opposes Gendo's plan and fears 01 advanced to a god, their plan wasn't to complement inside 01. This means that the complementation inside the egg is the sole remaining possibility.
My best guess - CI reconciles both the show and the game because of the free context, but any facts from the game itself should not be used to interpret the show.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Section D describes Gendo's plan, and Nerv's elite (Gendo) is mentioned in the phrase you can't reconcile.

I now understand the point you are trying to make with regard to section D; those quotes clarified things.

But the glaring hole in this interpretation -- which otherwise makes a lot of sense -- is that the CI states guiding the elite is Seele's intention, not Nerv's or Gendo's.

The last sentence now. No problems if it's interpreted the both ways and Nerv's "elite" is supposed here:

"Using Seele's man-made god, the elite (themselves) intended to obtain state near that of God's"
"According to Seele, this man-made god was intended to guide the elite (themselves) to state near that of God's"

Perhaps, but I don't see any reason to alter the current translation without sufficient evidence. While Reichu's Japanese may not be at an expert level, she is know to be extremely particular when it comes to the translation of NGE minutiae and lore. If either of the translations you proposed were more correct, I tend to think she would have chosen them instead.

That said, your interpretation about section D describing Gendo's plan did give me pause for thought. An important similarity between Gendo's plans for Third Impact(which end up being foiled by Rei) and Seele's original plans(which were foiled by Gendo throwing away the Spear of Longinus) is that both plans involved Lilith.

Gendo was going to use Lilith and Rei to reunite with Yui. We know he's not simply looking to reunite with her in general Complementation, because he's joined himself with the Adam embryo. Gendo is aiming for a privileged position in complementation. Taken this way, Gendo's plan is certainly about guiding the elite (himself) to a higher state.

Perhaps Seele's original plan for complementation, using Lilith, would also have taken place along such lines. Somehow, using Lilith would allow for a finer degree of control over complementation. Seele's backup plan of using Eva-01 may have lacked this option, the loss of the spear forcing them to choose a more egalitarian complementation.

But this begs the question of why Seele simply didn't invest resources in re-obtaining the spear from the moon -- a more than feasible operation. If Lilith allows a more preferable form of complementation, why rush to a more inferior version? Even before Gendo puts his plan into operation, Seele are already proposing using Eva-01. What's the rush?

I think the answer lies with Keel, and his all too personal motivation. We know that Keel is old, so old in fact that the majority of his body is replaced and on extended life support. I think Keel is desperate to stay alive long enough to gain immortality in Complementation. He can't wait to see the Spear returned form the moon, and would rather an indiscriminate form of complementation from the more hierarchical one proposed in HIP. The evidence for this comes from a conversation between Fuyutsuki and Gendo in Episode #15.

[wkimg]15 C005.jpg[/wkimg]

Fuyutsuki:
I received a complaint from Chairman Kiel about the delay.
It came directly to me. He was pretty upset.
He even hinted at dismissing you.

Gendo:
Adam is proceeding well, and the Eva Project has begun work
on the dummy plugs. What do the old men of Seele have to complain about?

Fuyutsuki:
The all-important Human Instrumentality Project is behind schedule.

Keel is upset about the HIP delays. Very upset. The only reason I can think of is his increasingly advanced age. Keel can no longer afford to wait for developments or debate. He will soon die unless he is "saved" by a complementation of one form or another.

This fact would actually explain a lot of the "inevitability" of Third Impact, and, when coupled with an "elite" version of Complementation would move Seele from simply being a fanatical religious group towards something that resembles a more straightforward ultimate power grab organisation. Ultimately their own selfishness and fear of death (Seele are universally described as "Old Men") drive them to fast-tracking an inferior complementation in their own interests, but they may originally have had a more unequal version in mind.

[gchristnsn]

Perhaps, but I don't see any reason to alter the current translation without sufficient evidence.

My interpretations of the sentence should not be considered credible either, and it's worth to consult Reichu on this, but I think that the last part of the sentence is under the context of the whole section. This is the attention point I want to raise.

About the rest. This point may be true. But there is a yet another point which also may be true.

- Keel wants to dismiss Gendo to ruin his plan.
- The tight schedule may be related to the state of the chamber of Guf which is crucial for the appearance of the messiah in Kabbalah (after the chamber is empty, contact of Adam and human or Lilith does not produce an impact, and a messiah could be created). Although Keel's health also may be the reason.
- Seele didn't retrieve the spear from the Moon because the government had begun the assault on Nerv, and no time is left (Seele acts under the conspiracy).

I consider it more probable because Misato says that HIP regards the whole humanity [edit: and there is no need to build twelve harpies to complement inside Lilith or Unit 01], Keel says that all is going well, and there are no reasons in the show to think that it was intended only for the elite (it does not use unfounded assumptions).

[edit]

Conclusion: there is a way to interpret the show and CI without contradictions and assumption that Seele intended to use HIP only for themselves. And this is probably the simplest possible interpretation of the topic. What to do with this? You decide.

[Monk Ed]

I just took a look again at the Japanese for the line that gchristnsn is relying on. For reference, it's:
ゼーレはこの人の作りし神によって、優良な者（自分達）を神に近いところへ導くつもりであった。

Which Reichu translated as:
"Seele's intention for this man-made god is to guide the elite (themselves) to state near that of God's."

But which gchristnsn has proposed could be interpreted instead as:
"Using Seele's man-made god, the elite (themselves) intended to obtain state near that of God's."

I'm no expert, but I've taken enough Japanese to know that gchristnsn's proposal just doesn't work. There is no ambiguity about this sentence. Look at the particle after "ゼーレ" (Seele). It's the particle wa, the subject indicator. It is not the particle no, the possessive. This is not the only piece of evidence (nor would it be sufficient on its own because of other potential constructions of the Japanese language, none of which are present here), but it's the best one I can explain. This sentence is absolutely talking about Seele's intentions for the man-made god.

Personally, I don't see why the resistance to the notion that Seele simply caved and decided to use Unit 01 in the end after all. First of all, religious types go against their own doctrine all the time when it's personally advantageous or "for the greater good", but secondly, it's arguably not even blasphemous anyway, because they said to Fuyutsuki only that they had no intention of creating a god; that doesn't mean that they can't use the god that someone else created , and even then only after the intended original has been rendered unusable to them. If we're already taking so much latitude in interpretation in other areas, why not this one? It's not even hard. It's practically intuitive. (It's certainly what I naturally figured while watching the show.)

(v v v Actually the most important part v v v)

Lastly -- and this actually comports with much of gchristnsn's suppositions too -- what if the full complementation of humankind is indeed what Seele would have if they could have exactly what they wanted, but they'd still be content with a complementation that included only themselves, and that's what occurs in Seele's Happy End whereas what occurs in EoE proper is even better? Maybe Seele's Happy End represents merely the bare-bones basics of what they were okay with, and the only reason why it's just them being guided into Eva-01 is because that's the best they could do under the circumstances.

This completely reconciles the language of part D. It allows them to say that they want to complement all humankind, and even mean it, while still it could be described that what they "really" want is complementation for themselves. We could just as easily describe Seele's intentions as "They want salvation (complementation) for all humankind... but really they'd be happy just as long as they get it for themselves."

It even comports with the themes of the show! Saying you're doing something for all mankind when really you're just doing it for yourself? Hello Misato, Gendo, and every other adult character in the show.

[gchristnsn]

@Monk Ed

Actually this is a very good point being combined with Keel's health. In general, this may mean that Seele cared only for themselves, but the process implied the complementation of the whole humanity.

[edit]

Summarized at the wiki.

[Monk Ed]

I ... was not expecting to resolve this so quickly.

[Lavinius]

It even comports with the themes of the show! Saying you're doing something for all mankind when really you're just doing it for yourself? Hello Misato, Gendo, and every other adult character in the show.

Except Yui. Yui is unabashedly doing it only for herself.
And she emerges triumphant.

[K40s]

Except Yui. Yui is unabashedly doing it only for herself.
And she emerges triumphant.

Not really, isn't she supposed to become a testament that mankind existed? so she apparently sacrifices herself to become said testament but in reality she does it for herself, she either wanted to become a goddess or use exile on the eva as her own personal hell/punishment for what she had to do to stop seele: abandoning her husband and son.

[Bagheera]

I just took a look again at the Japanese for the line that gchristnsn is relying on. For reference, it's:
ゼーレはこの人の作りし神によって、優良な者（自分達）を神に近いところへ導くつもりであった。

Which Reichu translated as:
"Seele's intention for this man-made god is to guide the elite (themselves) to state near that of God's."

But which gchristnsn has proposed could be interpreted instead as:
"Using Seele's man-made god, the elite (themselves) intended to obtain state near that of God's."

FWIW I checked with Symbv on the matter and he had this to say:

I would translate it a bit differently but that is more semantic differences - I do not have any major objection over the translation above - perhaps except the "elite' part.

And what do you understand as Seele's stated motives in the show? By the way, 自分達 is indeed "themselves" but it can have a broader scope, like "their own group" "their own kind" or "people including them". And I would say translating 優良な者 as "elite" may be narrowing its scope too much. 優良な者 can be just "good quality people" or fine/excellent people. However, one thing is clear -- Seele definitely sees themselves as eligible to be guided/led/shifted to a state near that of God's. As for others it is hard to say from that statement.

He later elaborated:

Well, I always think that they are more than just zealous idealists. Their motive may be idealist (or not) and meant the best for all humanity, but they also think that they are above other people (which is why they think little of others and keep pushing their plan and impose it upon others anyway) and thus when the humanity is complemented and becomes near-God, they sure consider themselves to be part of it. The two intentions can co-exist. This is my understanding of that statement anyway.

No I don't think I'd agree with that translation because 優良な者 can mean elites or good quality people or excellent persons but it won't mean "perfected individuals". By the way, the word inside the parenthesis just means "themselves" but whether there is a subtext of "including" is not explicit. From the surface I would say that the statement indeed points to some elitist and self-promoting inclination on the side of Seele, though I won't say it is beyond debate that some inclusion outside of themselves is not hinted as well.

and finally:

Yeah, I believe translation should not overreach and overinterpret what the text is saying, although the choice of the words should reflect any cultural difference, which is why I would prefer not to use "elites" which seems to have a narrower scope than the Japanese words convey (even though the translation is technically correct) but I won't use "perfected individuals" or add "including" which sounds like an interpretation instead of translation.

So, it seems to me that there's room to argue that Seele's goal even in part D was more inclusive than we we've been led to believe, and thus that the apparent contradiction is not really there in the Japanese version of the text. Parts C and D can thus both refer to Seele's plans without issue when viewed in this manner.

As I've argued elsewhere it is dangerous to argue too strongly for any one interpretation of the facts at hand given that we are relying on translations and missing a great deal of the communicated intent in the process. The facts may not be what we think they are.