Hello Evageeks! This may be a long post, so thank you for reading& please bear with me here:
I believe that the central mysteries of eva, posed from beginning to end of the series, relate to the unraveling of the motives of its women. I suppose I interpreted the significance of NGE and EoE not as a form of therapy for depressed loners, but rather as the awkward, at-times hard-to-follow attempts by men (even the creators of NGE) to understand women, as sources of desire, devotion, rejection and apprehension. Cases in point:
Rei-why does she not value her own life? Rei is the perpetual riddle of the series, a silent mystery that first compels Shinji to examine womanhood. (ep.5&6 for ref.)
Yui-why did she abandon her newborn child? Yui is only a vague, almost mystical impression on the characters of eva, but directs the actions of many of its key players. Making sense of her motives provides closure to the story arc of the evangelions.
Asuka-why does she caress the boy who strangles her? As a bundle of deep-seated contradictions, Asuka refuses to be analyzed, but yearns to be understood. She gets the final word in EoE, which only complicates the mystery of her desires and being.
What do you guys think about the purpose of NGE and EoE’s particular focus on women from the perspective of an adolescent male (Shinji)? Am I guilty of any gross fabrication or misunderstanding of eva’s messages? Do other aspects of eva ‘trumph’ the focus on women (like the portrayal of teenage angst)?
Care to share your thoughts on the women of eva &their reason for existing within NGE?
the women of eva
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- Kendrix
- Defender of Puppy Boy
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C'mon ppl, we're no longer monkeys bent on reproduction.
Please stop taling like this, people with vaginas have feelings and aren't there as secondary objects for u dudes to "unravel", and I'm sure Asuka would like you to know that she's not your side dish.
Of course there is that whole "the mystery of em chicks" aspect, because it is a comming of age story of sorts/Shinji happens to be in the middle of puberty and this is part of it, complete with musings on the subject mostly courtesy of Kaji. but the "living toger with others that have a vagina" thing is ultimately a subset of "living together with others", period.
And it's not like Shinji's birds and bees experiences are completely restricted to ladies...
*cough* Kaworu*cough*...
Romance/sex are ultimately just subplots/lesser aspects of the general story and even the connections (between Shinji and em girls) themselves. There is much more to Shinji's connection with, say, Rei, than that he'd like to get touchy-feely with her.
(And the fact that there is *little else* than lust between him and Asuka is not a good thing. It doesn't make her feel safe or supported, which is what she would want out of a relationship as much as a dude; It makes her pissed, as it will any woman remotely more realistic than bella swan. . Of course, she's not exactly helping the matter herself - but this is something this show deliberately does, the demystification of adolescence, which, as much as the Japanese tend to idealize it, is a sorry state to be in. Only lucky people have particularly romantic first kisses, and you shouldn't idealize immature, ego-ridden relationships of teenagers as "pure". Shinji himself, of course, can't exactly help being an actual teenager, and it would be not impossible, but fairly unrealistic to expect him to gain the corresponding maturity earlier than he does in the course of/at the end of the narrative; But it's a different thing for the thirty-year olds infront of the screen. )
There is just as much of "women being mystified by/not understanding men". Particularly Misato and Ritsuko.
...if anything, EVA must be praised for giving the ladies in it a lot of inner life/motivations of their own, and giving the more objectifying viewers a good kick in the nuts/reminding them that girls aren't cutesy caricatures, but 3D figures of flesh and bood that you can't control/predict or meet under "safe circumstances"... And it also doesn't bother with stupid Gender roles, which allows us to have a rather "fragile" male as a protagonist, and an ensemble of kickass competent ladies = way more interesting and realistic than cardboard stereotypes.
...That said, it's been said somewhere than the three main ladies represent Shinji's encounters with the different facets of the feminine, and because this show likes to play with archetypes/reach into our subcioncious in general, it takes up the archetypic triad of "wife/mother, maiden/child and crone/witch" or "wife/mother, maiden/child or seductress/whore". *
The most obvious reference would be the Magi.
But pay attention to how it's treated...
At first, Shinji sees Misato as "the mother", Rei as "the Maiden" and Asuka as "the seductress"... but then the image he has of them is shattered and he finds himself in this uncertain area he can't deal with (see the corresponding montage in EoE. "You're all keeping things from me!")... because human beings, as Kaji explains, are inherently 3D beings you can't fully comprehend - but this is much more about existential loniless than it is about dick meets vagoo, more about the cold, uncertain place that this world is, and how you can make the best of the freedom that offers you.
The point is really that Shinji *expects* them to turn on him, because he doesn't really think he's worth them not doing that... and that goes for most ppl in his vincinity, not just the boobie faction.
So, on the girls...
Misato, of course, literally tries to parent him, but the sexual aspect of that warm, nurturing force would be more like... having a crush on a teacher or something. But then, Shinji is confronted with the side of hers that is the seductress and not at all like a "mother" or "wife"... and freaks out.
With Asuka, well, she gets this very obvious "sexual awakening" setup, being this exotic, foreigh, incomprehensible presence that arrived after the rest of Shinji's world is already established. He meets Rei first, but Rei is not really an "girly girl" in the sense that there is the confusion - in real life, Rei would be a childhood crush/friend, the one female nerd, or a loner who never fit in with the other girls doing girl things and understasnds them no more than the subject counting her.
Asuka is all these things you notice when that hormone surge hits you. Or that is, her outer facade is. Inside, shze is very much the "Maiden" who needs help and protection - but that's more than Shinji bargained for. He absulotely can't deal with that side at best, and throws it back at her as her hypocricy at worst.
Rei is a stranger case, in that she very much IS the maiden, the classic fragile, pure heroine, the one you want to protect, the type the the hero exchanges gestures of kindness with, but that is taken from the hero by her physical frailties/ her tragic death. But then, Ritsuko calls Shinji down to the lab and the unsettling connections to Yui and Lillith, both very much the "mother" archetype and not the "maiden", and confuse the hell out of Shinji to the point that he cannot face Rei III (even if there are lots of other aspects there - namely, that he doesn't know to what extent she is the girl he knew for the past months)
In the end, Shinji decides that "he wants to see them again" (and all three girls are in that picture), because "his feelings were real" - He did love them, as much as they confused him, and he comes to accept them as multifacetted existences.
That said, both of his same-age love interests stand for a lot of opposing forces he's torn between, and each of their character arcs tell different, but complementing stories about "communication".
---
This pertains less to Shinji, but we get to see Ritsuko as the "witch/keeper of wisdom/crone" figure, in its modern workaholic woman incarnation, only to find out about her inner whore in a similar fashion to the other girls; It arguably hits the audience a lot like the inner conflicts of the main three hit Shinji.
Mari is a more difficult case since Rebuild didn't push these aspects that much, and one of her defining features is that she does not have inner conflicts between the seemingly contradictory aspects of her being, but if we had to associate her to such archetypes, it can only be the witch and the maiden, esp. with the way the concept of her is discribed in the CR.
_____________________
* The male equivalent of "hunter/lord/prophet" also gets its share of attention. Gendo is an interesting subversion/twist. A bit like the spear couterpart of the steely sexuality of the career first lady in her blazer, who you might f*** with but cannot posses, who has an aura of sexual power, but doesn't have life springing from it. Gendo DID have a kid, but he doesn't act particularly fatherly.
Please stop taling like this, people with vaginas have feelings and aren't there as secondary objects for u dudes to "unravel", and I'm sure Asuka would like you to know that she's not your side dish.
Of course there is that whole "the mystery of em chicks" aspect, because it is a comming of age story of sorts/Shinji happens to be in the middle of puberty and this is part of it, complete with musings on the subject mostly courtesy of Kaji. but the "living toger with others that have a vagina" thing is ultimately a subset of "living together with others", period.
And it's not like Shinji's birds and bees experiences are completely restricted to ladies...
*cough* Kaworu*cough*...Romance/sex are ultimately just subplots/lesser aspects of the general story and even the connections (between Shinji and em girls) themselves. There is much more to Shinji's connection with, say, Rei, than that he'd like to get touchy-feely with her.
(And the fact that there is *little else* than lust between him and Asuka is not a good thing. It doesn't make her feel safe or supported, which is what she would want out of a relationship as much as a dude; It makes her pissed, as it will any woman remotely more realistic than bella swan. . Of course, she's not exactly helping the matter herself - but this is something this show deliberately does, the demystification of adolescence, which, as much as the Japanese tend to idealize it, is a sorry state to be in. Only lucky people have particularly romantic first kisses, and you shouldn't idealize immature, ego-ridden relationships of teenagers as "pure". Shinji himself, of course, can't exactly help being an actual teenager, and it would be not impossible, but fairly unrealistic to expect him to gain the corresponding maturity earlier than he does in the course of/at the end of the narrative; But it's a different thing for the thirty-year olds infront of the screen. )
There is just as much of "women being mystified by/not understanding men". Particularly Misato and Ritsuko.
...if anything, EVA must be praised for giving the ladies in it a lot of inner life/motivations of their own, and giving the more objectifying viewers a good kick in the nuts/reminding them that girls aren't cutesy caricatures, but 3D figures of flesh and bood that you can't control/predict or meet under "safe circumstances"... And it also doesn't bother with stupid Gender roles, which allows us to have a rather "fragile" male as a protagonist, and an ensemble of kickass competent ladies = way more interesting and realistic than cardboard stereotypes.
...That said, it's been said somewhere than the three main ladies represent Shinji's encounters with the different facets of the feminine, and because this show likes to play with archetypes/reach into our subcioncious in general, it takes up the archetypic triad of "wife/mother, maiden/child and crone/witch" or "wife/mother, maiden/child or seductress/whore". *
The most obvious reference would be the Magi.
But pay attention to how it's treated...
At first, Shinji sees Misato as "the mother", Rei as "the Maiden" and Asuka as "the seductress"... but then the image he has of them is shattered and he finds himself in this uncertain area he can't deal with (see the corresponding montage in EoE. "You're all keeping things from me!")... because human beings, as Kaji explains, are inherently 3D beings you can't fully comprehend - but this is much more about existential loniless than it is about dick meets vagoo, more about the cold, uncertain place that this world is, and how you can make the best of the freedom that offers you.
The point is really that Shinji *expects* them to turn on him, because he doesn't really think he's worth them not doing that... and that goes for most ppl in his vincinity, not just the boobie faction.
So, on the girls...
Misato, of course, literally tries to parent him, but the sexual aspect of that warm, nurturing force would be more like... having a crush on a teacher or something. But then, Shinji is confronted with the side of hers that is the seductress and not at all like a "mother" or "wife"... and freaks out.
With Asuka, well, she gets this very obvious "sexual awakening" setup, being this exotic, foreigh, incomprehensible presence that arrived after the rest of Shinji's world is already established. He meets Rei first, but Rei is not really an "girly girl" in the sense that there is the confusion - in real life, Rei would be a childhood crush/friend, the one female nerd, or a loner who never fit in with the other girls doing girl things and understasnds them no more than the subject counting her.
Asuka is all these things you notice when that hormone surge hits you. Or that is, her outer facade is. Inside, shze is very much the "Maiden" who needs help and protection - but that's more than Shinji bargained for. He absulotely can't deal with that side at best, and throws it back at her as her hypocricy at worst.
Rei is a stranger case, in that she very much IS the maiden, the classic fragile, pure heroine, the one you want to protect, the type the the hero exchanges gestures of kindness with, but that is taken from the hero by her physical frailties/ her tragic death. But then, Ritsuko calls Shinji down to the lab and the unsettling connections to Yui and Lillith, both very much the "mother" archetype and not the "maiden", and confuse the hell out of Shinji to the point that he cannot face Rei III (even if there are lots of other aspects there - namely, that he doesn't know to what extent she is the girl he knew for the past months)
In the end, Shinji decides that "he wants to see them again" (and all three girls are in that picture), because "his feelings were real" - He did love them, as much as they confused him, and he comes to accept them as multifacetted existences.
That said, both of his same-age love interests stand for a lot of opposing forces he's torn between, and each of their character arcs tell different, but complementing stories about "communication".
---
This pertains less to Shinji, but we get to see Ritsuko as the "witch/keeper of wisdom/crone" figure, in its modern workaholic woman incarnation, only to find out about her inner whore in a similar fashion to the other girls; It arguably hits the audience a lot like the inner conflicts of the main three hit Shinji.
Mari is a more difficult case since Rebuild didn't push these aspects that much, and one of her defining features is that she does not have inner conflicts between the seemingly contradictory aspects of her being, but if we had to associate her to such archetypes, it can only be the witch and the maiden, esp. with the way the concept of her is discribed in the CR.
_____________________
* The male equivalent of "hunter/lord/prophet" also gets its share of attention. Gendo is an interesting subversion/twist. A bit like the spear couterpart of the steely sexuality of the career first lady in her blazer, who you might f*** with but cannot posses, who has an aura of sexual power, but doesn't have life springing from it. Gendo DID have a kid, but he doesn't act particularly fatherly.
I wanted to try harvesting the rice
I wanted to hold Tsubame more
I wanted to stay together forever with the boy I like
I wanted to hold Tsubame more
I wanted to stay together forever with the boy I like
- peripateia
- Adam
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Jan 28, 2008
@kendrix
Thanks for the enthusiastic reply! It's rather what I was hoping to get, although I must clarify that this 'theory' of mine is only an interpretation of eva's perplexing story, not the projection of my personal views regarding women (i.e I am not Shinji, and I am more interested in what Anno&co. intended to relate to the viewer than any particular character's personality quirks).
I say women dominate the mysteries of NGE, in the sense that their actions perplex the protagonist (Shinji) and provide the central plot points (for example, Rei&lilith, souls/purpose of evas, teenage angst/intimacy) that comprise the bulk of eva's story about Shinji's 'coming-of-age' journey.
This thought is by no means a law-as you rightfully pointed out, Misato and Ritsuko are perplexed by their interaction with their respective lovers. It would certainly seem that NGE isn't only about clueless men chasing after mystical women. Ritsuko can't understand women either-not even her mother, who as Casper denies her final wish. Misato can't understand her attraction to Kaji, a stand-in for her father. Even Asuka can't come to terms with her own feelings for her peers, for herself. I accept your point regarding the fallacy of 'mystifying' the women of NGE into caricatures of purity and debasement.
Still: Yui becomes divine, Rei merges with Lilith whereas Gendo and Keel remain mortal. Even the last Macchiavelli, Gendo, has the ultimate goal of reuniting with a woman. I stand by the reverence that NGE shows for women as life givers (even though the portrayal may be a hackneyed caricature of womanhood) and the pursuit of women by men.
But the dominant perspective of eva is Shinji's: his is a mixture of all the confusion and insecurities of male adolescence. He is surrounded by women at the time of eva. I especially appreciated your views of what the women in his life represent. I took your argument to mean that the theme of communication between separate beings is more important than the differences between men and women in eva. I would agree with that-but as I examine Shinji's relationships with his peers, I find only that he is perfectly capable of communicating with his male counterparts. With Kensuke and Toji he speaks the language of boyhood innocence. Kaji retains that language in his advice (incidentally, he implicitly suggests that Shinji ought to give up on understanding women-it's impossible, he says).
What?! Bu-but what about Gendo? EoE shows us that Gendo is quite similar to Shinji-he avoids his son and his peers entirely for fear of hurting others &being hurt. He can speak to people, to Shinji; he chooses not to; he faces the consequences.
Kaworu is the antithesis-He can and he does speak to Shinji. One understands the other perfectly. Uh...but for the fact that one has the soul of an ancient progenitor of bizarre monsters, the two would have been fine friends. Provided that Kaworu's sacrifice confuses and depresses Shinji, but Shinji mourns his friend precisely because he was the only 'other' who thoroughly penetrated his 'hedgehog's shell'. Did Kaworu have to be a boy to do it? I have no clue. Rei, Kaworu's female counterpart, certainly didn't do very well in that regard.
But neither Gendo nor Kaworu end up on the beach in EoE. Especially in 'One More Final', I find that the communication problem is between Shinji and Asuka-they still seem to speak two different languages at this point, even after instrumentality. This is not to say they won't try to communicate, but the results are guaranteed to bring pain-and comfort, somehow. What becomes most meaningful by the end of EoE is the painful, inevitable interaction between the two-not as new Adam and Eve caricatures, but as a process of maturation between two strangers; separate souls made great through love and adversity, perhaps.
Again, I hope only to provoke further discussion of eva, not a firestorm of gender stereotypes/feminism/sexism debates. Certainly I make a distinction between the story of eva and our own personal conceptions of man and woman (I like eva partly because it's far removed from 'real life'-it'll be a sad day when I admit I 'learned' something from eva). Thanks for reading, I encourage people to disagree and argue their point!
Thanks for the enthusiastic reply! It's rather what I was hoping to get, although I must clarify that this 'theory' of mine is only an interpretation of eva's perplexing story, not the projection of my personal views regarding women (i.e I am not Shinji, and I am more interested in what Anno&co. intended to relate to the viewer than any particular character's personality quirks).
I say women dominate the mysteries of NGE, in the sense that their actions perplex the protagonist (Shinji) and provide the central plot points (for example, Rei&lilith, souls/purpose of evas, teenage angst/intimacy) that comprise the bulk of eva's story about Shinji's 'coming-of-age' journey.
This thought is by no means a law-as you rightfully pointed out, Misato and Ritsuko are perplexed by their interaction with their respective lovers. It would certainly seem that NGE isn't only about clueless men chasing after mystical women. Ritsuko can't understand women either-not even her mother, who as Casper denies her final wish. Misato can't understand her attraction to Kaji, a stand-in for her father. Even Asuka can't come to terms with her own feelings for her peers, for herself. I accept your point regarding the fallacy of 'mystifying' the women of NGE into caricatures of purity and debasement.
Still: Yui becomes divine, Rei merges with Lilith whereas Gendo and Keel remain mortal. Even the last Macchiavelli, Gendo, has the ultimate goal of reuniting with a woman. I stand by the reverence that NGE shows for women as life givers (even though the portrayal may be a hackneyed caricature of womanhood) and the pursuit of women by men.
But the dominant perspective of eva is Shinji's: his is a mixture of all the confusion and insecurities of male adolescence. He is surrounded by women at the time of eva. I especially appreciated your views of what the women in his life represent. I took your argument to mean that the theme of communication between separate beings is more important than the differences between men and women in eva. I would agree with that-but as I examine Shinji's relationships with his peers, I find only that he is perfectly capable of communicating with his male counterparts. With Kensuke and Toji he speaks the language of boyhood innocence. Kaji retains that language in his advice (incidentally, he implicitly suggests that Shinji ought to give up on understanding women-it's impossible, he says).
What?! Bu-but what about Gendo? EoE shows us that Gendo is quite similar to Shinji-he avoids his son and his peers entirely for fear of hurting others &being hurt. He can speak to people, to Shinji; he chooses not to; he faces the consequences.
Kaworu is the antithesis-He can and he does speak to Shinji. One understands the other perfectly. Uh...but for the fact that one has the soul of an ancient progenitor of bizarre monsters, the two would have been fine friends. Provided that Kaworu's sacrifice confuses and depresses Shinji, but Shinji mourns his friend precisely because he was the only 'other' who thoroughly penetrated his 'hedgehog's shell'. Did Kaworu have to be a boy to do it? I have no clue. Rei, Kaworu's female counterpart, certainly didn't do very well in that regard.
But neither Gendo nor Kaworu end up on the beach in EoE. Especially in 'One More Final', I find that the communication problem is between Shinji and Asuka-they still seem to speak two different languages at this point, even after instrumentality. This is not to say they won't try to communicate, but the results are guaranteed to bring pain-and comfort, somehow. What becomes most meaningful by the end of EoE is the painful, inevitable interaction between the two-not as new Adam and Eve caricatures, but as a process of maturation between two strangers; separate souls made great through love and adversity, perhaps.
Again, I hope only to provoke further discussion of eva, not a firestorm of gender stereotypes/feminism/sexism debates. Certainly I make a distinction between the story of eva and our own personal conceptions of man and woman (I like eva partly because it's far removed from 'real life'-it'll be a sad day when I admit I 'learned' something from eva). Thanks for reading, I encourage people to disagree and argue their point!
- kuribo-04
- Evangelion
- Age: 27
- Posts: 3232
- Joined: Feb 03, 2013
- Location: Spain or Germany
- Gender: Male
- Contact:
Why is it sad to learn something from Eva?
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
~('.'~) (~'.')~ Dancin Kirby
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
~('.'~) (~'.')~ Dancin Kirby
EVA is revolutionary and progressive, when it comes to female casting. Tv shows in the West don't get close to the female quota of this anime (gaming is far worse...). And really even when they do, it's one of those by women for women shows which thoroughly cheat you (they don't give you the truth, only what you want to hear).
You might say that women run Nerv and its story, but its perspective and deep soul is still that of a boy. And poor Shinji barely owns the prerequisites for it, as the poor guy is almost genderless in appearance and mannerisms... kind of an evolution of the already-very-universalist gunbuster heroes.
I guess you could write off men, in NERV, as the holders of mysteries and ultimate deciders in a world where humanity is almost entirely female.
You might say that women run Nerv and its story, but its perspective and deep soul is still that of a boy. And poor Shinji barely owns the prerequisites for it, as the poor guy is almost genderless in appearance and mannerisms... kind of an evolution of the already-very-universalist gunbuster heroes.
I guess you could write off men, in NERV, as the holders of mysteries and ultimate deciders in a world where humanity is almost entirely female.
SOUND ONLY
- peripateia
- Adam
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Jan 28, 2008
@kuribo
good question! I hope I haven't learned from eva: it's after all, only a fantasy (as Anno uses EoE to state). The urge to 'learn' from Shinji's pains may be present, but I resist it. Real people give me life lessons; Shinji, Asuka and company give me (high quality) entertainment; Anno gives me an indirect perspective on loneliness. That was off-topic, but a good question nonetheless!
@xdiesp
I don't argue that eva's portrayal of womanhood is something new or original in anime or TV. In fact I'd argue that it's often rather cliched, as previous posts have outlined in caricatures. But I take it that you agree with this theory of women as the mysterious 'other' being sought-I'm dissatisfied with that! I hope you can give me a counter-argument that I can bite into!
@kendrix
I looked up 'shadow archetype' on google but I have trouble understanding: do you mean to say that Kaworu is (or provokes) the manifestation of Shinji's repressed, sub-conscious desires?
I haven't even gotten to the implications of this 'eva=boy seeking women' theory yet, but I hope to hear more counter-arguments (otherwise I'll have to assume that everyone agrees with me)
good question! I hope I haven't learned from eva: it's after all, only a fantasy (as Anno uses EoE to state). The urge to 'learn' from Shinji's pains may be present, but I resist it. Real people give me life lessons; Shinji, Asuka and company give me (high quality) entertainment; Anno gives me an indirect perspective on loneliness. That was off-topic, but a good question nonetheless!
@xdiesp
I don't argue that eva's portrayal of womanhood is something new or original in anime or TV. In fact I'd argue that it's often rather cliched, as previous posts have outlined in caricatures. But I take it that you agree with this theory of women as the mysterious 'other' being sought-I'm dissatisfied with that! I hope you can give me a counter-argument that I can bite into!
@kendrix
I looked up 'shadow archetype' on google but I have trouble understanding: do you mean to say that Kaworu is (or provokes) the manifestation of Shinji's repressed, sub-conscious desires?
I haven't even gotten to the implications of this 'eva=boy seeking women' theory yet, but I hope to hear more counter-arguments (otherwise I'll have to assume that everyone agrees with me)
- gchristnsn
- Sachiel
- Posts: 223
- Joined: Mar 28, 2012
Re: the women of eva
peripateia wrote:Rei-why does she not value her own life?
She probably knows that she could be easily replaced, in addition, she possesses soul of a complete being as Kaworu (who also does not value his life), there are not so many differences between existence and nonexistence for such beings. Her problem is in that she had no mother and no personality at first, but to the end she gains a sort of one through the interaction with other people.
She needs to make Shinji to taste solitude (she also manipulates Gendo's love for her). The early separation from the mother (when he saw his mother vanishing, remember also the scene at the sandbox in EoE) will do that. In Shinji's case this resulted in the wall between himself and the world (he believes that he is pitiful and hates himself, so he also believes that the other world hates him).
In Asuka's case the separation from the mother resulted in the belief that she can only account only to herself. Because of that she have the complex of superiority and believes that she is perfect. This also creates the wall between her and the world, she thinks that other people are unworthy of her.
These opposite poles form an acute case of hedgehog's dilemma between Shinji and Asuka (Asuka rejects Shinji's demand for care because she finds it pitiful), but at the same this aids the communication (of some dominant/submissive type) between them, and Shinji chooses Asuka as the object of his lust eventually. It's hard to explain "one more final" from EoE, but Shinji's actions there may be the continuation of the outbreak of his lust and demand for care [which can not be satisfied because of Asuka's rejection] from the psychoanalysis by the lance. Asuka's move may symbolize that the dilemma is over now and she admits Shinji's demand for care and is able to provide it.
There is also cases of Misato (who fears men because of fear to the father) and suppresses her love, Ritsuko who fears men because she had no father (and loves Gendo, but he just manipulates her), and Naoko who is actual workaholic and loves Gendo, but Gendo does not need her (she may prevent his reunion with Yui) and sends Rei to rid of her (Ritsuko is more loyal and could be used in place of Naoko).
As you see, parent-child relations also take one of the central parts here along with romantic ones which assume unrequited love in each case.
A short guide to NGE
- Simpler explanations are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones. - Occam's razor
- Since we can never know anything for sure, it is simply not worth searching for certainty; but it is well worth searching for truth; and we do this chiefly by searching for mistakes, so that we have to correct them. - Karl Popper
- Simpler explanations are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones. - Occam's razor
- Since we can never know anything for sure, it is simply not worth searching for certainty; but it is well worth searching for truth; and we do this chiefly by searching for mistakes, so that we have to correct them. - Karl Popper
- Shinoyami65
- Seed of Life
- Age: 26
- Posts: 3926
- Joined: Jul 26, 2012
- Location: Vinculum Gate
- Gender: Male
Re: the women of eva
Those are some exceptionally good points, except for:
The Lance can't psychoanalyse anyone, and most of the characters never have any trippy introspective scenes with it since they never spend much time with it.
Psychoanalysis by the lance.
The Lance can't psychoanalyse anyone, and most of the characters never have any trippy introspective scenes with it since they never spend much time with it.
E̱͡v͈̙e͔̰̳͙r̞͍y͏̱̲̭͎̪ṱ͙̣̗̱͠h̰̰i͙n̶̮̟̳͍͍̫͓g̩ ̠͈en̶̖̹̪d̸̙̦͙̜͕͍̞s̸̰.̳̙̺̟̻̀
I always thought I might be bad
Now I know that it's true
Because I think you're so good
And I'm nothing like you
I always thought I might be bad
Now I know that it's true
Because I think you're so good
And I'm nothing like you
- gchristnsn
- Sachiel
- Posts: 223
- Joined: Mar 28, 2012
Re: the women of eva
But I think that it can. Probably just because there are no angels anymore, someone should do this
.A short guide to NGE
- Simpler explanations are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones. - Occam's razor
- Since we can never know anything for sure, it is simply not worth searching for certainty; but it is well worth searching for truth; and we do this chiefly by searching for mistakes, so that we have to correct them. - Karl Popper
- Simpler explanations are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones. - Occam's razor
- Since we can never know anything for sure, it is simply not worth searching for certainty; but it is well worth searching for truth; and we do this chiefly by searching for mistakes, so that we have to correct them. - Karl Popper
- UrsusArctos
- The Beginning and The End
- Posts: 10501
- Joined: Jun 28, 2007
Having communication issues with girls is pretty normal for adolescence, especially in a country and a culture where boy-girl interactions are frowned upon. You don't get to see them as human, and you don't get to treat them as human as well. That being said, Shinji's interactions with Misato are pretty much like living with a bratty elder sister. It's only when things completely go to hell that his interactions with Misato really go below the synch ratio, so as to speak.
Asuka and Rei are full of their own issues - Rei is horribly repressed and Asuka is hiding terrible emotional trauma. Screwed up interactions with those two? Par for the course. Hikari and Ritsuko? Shinji deals with them in a "professional" context most of the time.
Towards the end, Shinji doesn't even interact with Toji and Kensuke. So much for male on male interaction.
There's one thing I'm going to hand Anno : he's acknowledged that human relationships - both between and within the sexes -are complex and so rife with issues that they can't be simplified or solved just like that. Things will go wrong. And the women in this show are shown as full human beings, with their own feelings, problems and ability to act on them, which is light-years ahead of what the vast majority of animation or live-action movies/TV serie either in Japan or the United States show. (Misato shares protagonist billing with Shinji as well)
Asuka and Rei are full of their own issues - Rei is horribly repressed and Asuka is hiding terrible emotional trauma. Screwed up interactions with those two? Par for the course. Hikari and Ritsuko? Shinji deals with them in a "professional" context most of the time.
Towards the end, Shinji doesn't even interact with Toji and Kensuke. So much for male on male interaction.
There's one thing I'm going to hand Anno : he's acknowledged that human relationships - both between and within the sexes -are complex and so rife with issues that they can't be simplified or solved just like that. Things will go wrong. And the women in this show are shown as full human beings, with their own feelings, problems and ability to act on them, which is light-years ahead of what the vast majority of animation or live-action movies/TV serie either in Japan or the United States show. (Misato shares protagonist billing with Shinji as well)
(Was Board Staff from Dec 31, 2007 - Oct 17, 2015 and Oct 20, 2020 - Aug 1, 2021)
Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX
You're either really bad at interpreting jokes or really good at pretending you are and I have no idea which.-Monk Ed
WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!(<-link to lunacy)...Taste me, if you can bear it. (Warning: Language NSFW)
The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster
Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX
You're either really bad at interpreting jokes or really good at pretending you are and I have no idea which.-Monk Ed
WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!(<-link to lunacy)...Taste me, if you can bear it. (Warning: Language NSFW)
The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster
- peripateia
- Adam
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@UrsusArctos
I agree that Shinji's relationship with his male peers was stressed in the beginning of NGE. (ex. Gendo, Toji, Kensuke) But the emphasis on male-male interaction eventually gives way to Shinji's encounter/fascination with the women in his life, namely Rei, Misato, Asuka, Yui.
EoE's hell train sequence is filled with the women who provoke, scare and (comfort?) Shinji's tortured ego. Gendo, Toji, Kensuke, Kaji are absent in HIP (well, Kaji doesn't speak to Shinji).
By the end, only two women (three if you count 'ghost Rei') communicate with Shinji, post 3rd Impact. Maybe Shinji doesn't feel like talking to anyone else, maybe other males don't feel like talking to him?
As an aside, I found NGE&EoE's references to the menstrual cycle to be quite surprising. Perhaps Anno depicted yet another aspect of womanhood to defy the genre of 90's mecha anime? The eva universe certainly seems to closely examine the human condition of its women. As for depictions of masculine sexuality, Shinji's puberty is rather uneventful until the hospital scene, which leads me to believe that it's his repressed sexuality which has quietly lurked behind the scenes from his first encounter with Rei (ep.5) to his 'climax' in EoE.
What does this "eva=boy seeking women" theory mean? As a coming-of-age story, 'boy seeking women' seems to be the natural process of maturation all Children go through to become an adult. But as a genre-defying statement against anime convention, the journey of the boy who seeks women is fraught with peril, rejection, uncertainty and error: the beach scene of EoE encapsulates, I say, the insanity (even cruelty?) of male-female contact in eva.
I'm being extremely male-centric here, in discounting the perspectives of the women in NGE. But supposing that eva's story is Shinji's story, I stand by this interpretation (and hope people will argue back!)
Also, some food for thought, anyone? Here is an excerpt from Anno's 'roundtable' discussion in Anime Expo '96 (article from Evageeks Wiki, which I highly recommend for an illuminating read):
On Anno's hobbies and interests:
"My hobby is scuba diving, and besides science fiction, I like to read romance novels written by women. Since I'm a male, I don't really know the emotions of women. And because I want to understand their feelings, and create more realistic female characters, this is something I have to pursue."
[/quote]
I agree that Shinji's relationship with his male peers was stressed in the beginning of NGE. (ex. Gendo, Toji, Kensuke) But the emphasis on male-male interaction eventually gives way to Shinji's encounter/fascination with the women in his life, namely Rei, Misato, Asuka, Yui.
EoE's hell train sequence is filled with the women who provoke, scare and (comfort?) Shinji's tortured ego. Gendo, Toji, Kensuke, Kaji are absent in HIP (well, Kaji doesn't speak to Shinji).
By the end, only two women (three if you count 'ghost Rei') communicate with Shinji, post 3rd Impact. Maybe Shinji doesn't feel like talking to anyone else, maybe other males don't feel like talking to him?
As an aside, I found NGE&EoE's references to the menstrual cycle to be quite surprising. Perhaps Anno depicted yet another aspect of womanhood to defy the genre of 90's mecha anime? The eva universe certainly seems to closely examine the human condition of its women. As for depictions of masculine sexuality, Shinji's puberty is rather uneventful until the hospital scene, which leads me to believe that it's his repressed sexuality which has quietly lurked behind the scenes from his first encounter with Rei (ep.5) to his 'climax' in EoE.
What does this "eva=boy seeking women" theory mean? As a coming-of-age story, 'boy seeking women' seems to be the natural process of maturation all Children go through to become an adult. But as a genre-defying statement against anime convention, the journey of the boy who seeks women is fraught with peril, rejection, uncertainty and error: the beach scene of EoE encapsulates, I say, the insanity (even cruelty?) of male-female contact in eva.
I'm being extremely male-centric here, in discounting the perspectives of the women in NGE. But supposing that eva's story is Shinji's story, I stand by this interpretation (and hope people will argue back!)
Also, some food for thought, anyone? Here is an excerpt from Anno's 'roundtable' discussion in Anime Expo '96 (article from Evageeks Wiki, which I highly recommend for an illuminating read):
On Anno's hobbies and interests:
"My hobby is scuba diving, and besides science fiction, I like to read romance novels written by women. Since I'm a male, I don't really know the emotions of women. And because I want to understand their feelings, and create more realistic female characters, this is something I have to pursue."
[/quote]
- Kendrix
- Defender of Puppy Boy
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What does this "eva=boy seeking women" theory mean? As a coming-of-age story, 'boy seeking women' seems to be the natural process of maturation all Children go through to become an adult. But as a genre-defying statement against anime convention, the journey of the boy who seeks women is fraught with peril, rejection, uncertainty and error: the beach scene of EoE encapsulates, I say, the insanity (even cruelty?) of male-female contact in eva.
But Shinji isn't the only one who undergoes some maturation; We get similar scenes on most of the teenaged cast, which, in Touji's and Hikari's less-pathologic cases, simply means that the once annoying ridden, cootie-ridden beings become ppl whose opinions you care about, and both Asuka and Misato (whose Maturation we don't see in real time, but get referecens to) have their own bags of issues with the opposite sex, more so than Shinji, i might say - Asuka gets along with Hikari just fine, she has some problems with boys specifically (and states that she hates them...)=
Shinji just has some problems with people that extend to people with boobs and vaginas like any other people, which, with his "little brain" giving him the contradictory command to seek them out, tends to create problems, esp. since many people view intimate and/or romantic relationships as a source or gauge for self-worth... "self-worth" being the main problem here.
Also remember that they're 14 year olds... from a show written in the 90ies.
It's quite common for those not to come beyond holding hands and little gestures/conversations at that age.
Also, if you want to analyze that, I wouldn't start in ep 5, but ep 4, where it's implied that he watches that couple do the nasty in that cinema, with an expression that could be interpreted as a lot of things... which I'd call anger/envy at not having anyone to cuddle with...
On Anno's hobbies and interests:
"My hobby is scuba diving, and besides science fiction, I like to read romance novels written by women. Since I'm a male, I don't really know the emotions of women. And because I want to understand their feelings, and create more realistic female characters, this is something I have to pursue."
That explains a lot.
For example, he seemed to know which part/day of the period sucks the most: the second one. The distinct way in which a woman would percieve the whole father complex thing (It's no big "inherent differences" thing, just that the father would be the "opposite sex parent" and thus have this function as "designated safe test dummy" for how the desired sex (Not sure if there's any research into how this works in non-heterosexuals; There aren't that many, and it usually first becomes apparent during puberty) percieves you and how you percieve them, which showed up to a degree with most of the mayor female characters whom we know a backstory for; mostly Misato, but also Asuka )
Generally, EVa has a lot of "sensitive" writing compared to, well, an unfortunate lot of other stuff written by men about women. Masashi Kishimoto really *tries*, but at times, I just wanna shake my head...
But this is really just him trying to be a good writer/understanding human being, not necessarily much more than this and a justification for nonstandart taste in hobbies which might be considered un-manly by some;
It's fairly clear who Shinji, being your typical "sensitive" guy and having less than macho-hobbies, is based on, and sure puts the recent revelation of Shinji's interest in what a certain blue-haired girl likes to read (even if they're probably not romance novels) in a whole different light XD
...obviously, this also explains how Asuka (swimming) and Rei(both swimming and reading) ended up with these hobbies.
I wanted to try harvesting the rice
I wanted to hold Tsubame more
I wanted to stay together forever with the boy I like
I wanted to hold Tsubame more
I wanted to stay together forever with the boy I like
- peripateia
- Adam
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Jan 28, 2008
@kendrix
thanks for the insights! And I have to agree completely with your sentiment that eva is quite sensitive to the human condition despite the bizarre, esoteric and downright confusing elements of the plot (i.e. anything that has to do with the bible and instrumentality).
This theory of "eva=boy seeking women" is my attempt to block out those elements of the series that are trivial, or distracting, or irrelevant to the important messages that are worth pondering/analyzing. (for example, in my view even the evangelions and their battles with the angels seem like a godzilla-esque cliche.)
of course this narrow interpretation of eva's "theme" is completely biased in favor of my personal tastes in film and storytelling. I happen to enjoy stories about human relationships and quirky coming-of-age tales. Anno also creates compelling human drama and conflict (and suspense) without having to resort to melodramatic devices (although he doesn't shy away from them either: dead mother's soul in giant robot reeks of melodrama).
Case in point: the outcome of a simple 10-second kiss in ep.15, arguably, erodes Asuka's psyche and leads her to insanity...even giant space monsters and occult world organizations have little sway over human hearts next to the power of...teenage angst! (I know, I'm stretching it-but still, eva's relationships are far more fascinating to me than eva's mecha or sci-fi elements, and far more worthy of analysis)
Bit off topic, but does anyone remember the title card that flashes briefly before EoE's episode 26?
"I wish to express my heartfelt gratitude to the cast, staff, friends, and the five women who helped bring this picture to its completion. Thank you very much. Hideaki Anno."
Does anyone know who these five women were? My first guess would be the main voice actresses, but who knows-I think I read somewhere that Anno had a childhood friend named Ritsuko...
thanks for the insights! And I have to agree completely with your sentiment that eva is quite sensitive to the human condition despite the bizarre, esoteric and downright confusing elements of the plot (i.e. anything that has to do with the bible and instrumentality).
This theory of "eva=boy seeking women" is my attempt to block out those elements of the series that are trivial, or distracting, or irrelevant to the important messages that are worth pondering/analyzing. (for example, in my view even the evangelions and their battles with the angels seem like a godzilla-esque cliche.)
of course this narrow interpretation of eva's "theme" is completely biased in favor of my personal tastes in film and storytelling. I happen to enjoy stories about human relationships and quirky coming-of-age tales. Anno also creates compelling human drama and conflict (and suspense) without having to resort to melodramatic devices (although he doesn't shy away from them either: dead mother's soul in giant robot reeks of melodrama).
Case in point: the outcome of a simple 10-second kiss in ep.15, arguably, erodes Asuka's psyche and leads her to insanity...even giant space monsters and occult world organizations have little sway over human hearts next to the power of...teenage angst! (I know, I'm stretching it-but still, eva's relationships are far more fascinating to me than eva's mecha or sci-fi elements, and far more worthy of analysis)
Bit off topic, but does anyone remember the title card that flashes briefly before EoE's episode 26?
"I wish to express my heartfelt gratitude to the cast, staff, friends, and the five women who helped bring this picture to its completion. Thank you very much. Hideaki Anno."
Does anyone know who these five women were? My first guess would be the main voice actresses, but who knows-I think I read somewhere that Anno had a childhood friend named Ritsuko...
- kuribo-04
- Evangelion
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good question! I hope I haven't learned from eva: it's after all, only a fantasy (as Anno uses EoE to state). The urge to 'learn' from Shinji's pains may be present, but I resist it. Real people give me life lessons; Shinji, Asuka and company give me (high quality) entertainment; Anno gives me an indirect perspective on loneliness. That was off-topic, but a good question nonetheless!
First, I don't think the possibility that you can't learn from Eva makes it a lesser work, and you seem to agree on that. So, can we learn from Eva? I'd say yes. Maybe you didn´t learn because you don't need to learn anymore (at least about the aspects the show talks about, and the characters learn on a very "basic" level anyways, although for Anno, keeping in mind his situation, it was probably very much), or because you prefer learning from real people (like you pointed out).
I think that I have learned from it. Is it more important to learn from real people? Of course, but I don't think that means you can't learn from fiction (and Eva and Anno showed me/confirmed that you need to learn from real people, so that already means that I have learned something from it...I think
). Maybe I could learn from it (I'm pretty sure that I did) because I'm still a teenager (I don't know how old you are), maybe because I'm kind of weird. But in the end I don't think it is bad to learn from a series. Should I be ashamed because I needed Eva to learn some things? Maybe. I don't identify at all with the otakus Anno wants to teach something, but maybe I have some traits in common with them. But I prefer to always watch learning as something positive, and for me Eva is a series that can teach, confirm some things you may already think and definitfely help.Also, I would like to be a filmmaker someday (I know that is a pretty crazy idea) and I would like to help people in some way through my work (not that I know if I would be capable of doing it), and Eva was an inspiration for that. You're kind of ruining my dream
(I'm not being serious).Thanks for labeling my question as interesting!
And the five women Anno is talking about were probably Shinji's, Rei's, Asuka's, Misato's and Ritsuko's voice actresses. Or maybe Maya's instead of Ritsuko's? But I'd say voice actresses, yes. There are no more women in Gainax I think.
@Kendrix The script doesn't confirm if Shinji was feeling envy, but I agree that it was probably that. It states that later he feels angry/shocked, something that I think is also Shinji being Shinji (Anno).
And...ehm...I didn't know that the second day is the worst, but, yes, Anno seemed to know and he included that, so, yeah, he rules. (Just what you'd expect from da Masta.)
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
~('.'~) (~'.')~ Dancin Kirby
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
~('.'~) (~'.')~ Dancin Kirby
Enough about Shinji views on females. I like to know what the other male characters view the females of the series. Gendo see woman as being useful to his needs until he has no more use for them and kill them. Then there his creepy relationship whit Rei number2. Toji has crush on Misato but don't see a cute girl already like him. Cares about his sister so much that he attack Shinji for hurting her then feel bad about it,lose a leg by doing something he hates to make sure she get the treatment she deserve. He act more like a father to her then a brother. Then there kensuke who also has a crush on Misato while overlooking Asuka and Rei who are in his age range. Could be he seem them as being weak while Misato is strong? Does he see hikari as a annoying sister he never had nor wanted? While he's a nice guy he seem to prefer being a loner and not wanting to duel whit the problem called women.
Surely there more to what is going on around here?
Surely there more to what is going on around here?
- AuraTwilight
- Angel
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I'm pretty sure Kensuke and Toji are just 14 year olds with a crush on a hot older woman. Not everyone in the Eva-verse has a severe psychological dysfunction.
J_Faulkner, be warned that some of your statements could be construed as ad hominem attacks. -- Priceless, eternal irony
Anno has perfected the side boob --Gendo'sPapa
Anno has perfected the side boob --Gendo'sPapa
- Gob Hobblin
- First Ancestor
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I would actually argue that Toji is the MOST normal of the 'male' archetypes we see in Eva, in the sense that he is the closest to seeing what a balanced, decent boy in real life would do. Boys with sisters (especially younger ones) can get hyper-protective of them, boys find themselves going all goofy when presented with an attractive, older woman, and boys can completely miss the fact that a girl their own age is sitting there (RIGHT HERE, DUMBASS!) doing her best to convey interest while he is off in the woods or something. And I agree with Kendrix: we get the first hint of Hikari's interest when Toji is injured, and this may be because she is seeing him in a different way (oh, he's not a brainless beefcake jock, he actually CARES about people). The attraction could have been simmering, or it developed right there. Who knows?
Kensuke strikes me as that kid who is so wrapped up in one little facet of his world (the military) that it impedes his ability to connect to others (especially girls). I have had friends like that (I HAVE friends like that), and they either grow out of it or recede deeper into it. That being said, he is a teenage boy: Misato is a gorgeous lady. There doesn’t need to be much deeper than him seeing something completely unattainable and going, ‘That’s what I want!’ If you want to go deeper and analyze it, Kensuke probably doubts his ability to go out with or connect with any girl his own age, so he doesn’t try. He’s certainly not going to make the attempt to go after Misato, so this is a safe attraction that he feels more comfortable vocalizing.
As for Gendo with Rei…I have trouble looking at this. At first, I subscribed that there was something very unhealthy about the relationship between the two, but I had to reassess it several times. I actually think what they have is a father-daughter dynamic going (and no, it is still not healthy), especially considering he wanted to name his daughter Rei. It adds an interesting element to the role a father plays in the lives of his children: will a father gravitate more towards a daughter and indulge her more, while ignoring or being more rough with a son? That’s kind of a cliche, but it’s a hard one to ignore (and it feels like one that tends to propagate itself in reality). So, one has to wonder: still part of Gendo’s overall plan (get that paternal connection with Lilith), or if it was less complicated than that (Rei, you are the daughter Yui and me never could have).
Kensuke strikes me as that kid who is so wrapped up in one little facet of his world (the military) that it impedes his ability to connect to others (especially girls). I have had friends like that (I HAVE friends like that), and they either grow out of it or recede deeper into it. That being said, he is a teenage boy: Misato is a gorgeous lady. There doesn’t need to be much deeper than him seeing something completely unattainable and going, ‘That’s what I want!’ If you want to go deeper and analyze it, Kensuke probably doubts his ability to go out with or connect with any girl his own age, so he doesn’t try. He’s certainly not going to make the attempt to go after Misato, so this is a safe attraction that he feels more comfortable vocalizing.
As for Gendo with Rei…I have trouble looking at this. At first, I subscribed that there was something very unhealthy about the relationship between the two, but I had to reassess it several times. I actually think what they have is a father-daughter dynamic going (and no, it is still not healthy), especially considering he wanted to name his daughter Rei. It adds an interesting element to the role a father plays in the lives of his children: will a father gravitate more towards a daughter and indulge her more, while ignoring or being more rough with a son? That’s kind of a cliche, but it’s a hard one to ignore (and it feels like one that tends to propagate itself in reality). So, one has to wonder: still part of Gendo’s overall plan (get that paternal connection with Lilith), or if it was less complicated than that (Rei, you are the daughter Yui and me never could have).
Though, Gob still might look good in a cocktail dress.
-Sorrow
Rei wanted to know what waffles tasted like.
-Literary Eagle
We have to remember what's important in life: friends, waffles, and work. Or waffles, friends, and work. But work has to come in third.
-Leslie Knope
Come read EVA Sessions! This place has it, too! There'll be pizza! Not really! There are other things, too! Not EVA Sessions! Did I mention the pizza!?
-Sorrow
Rei wanted to know what waffles tasted like.
-Literary Eagle
We have to remember what's important in life: friends, waffles, and work. Or waffles, friends, and work. But work has to come in third.
-Leslie Knope
Come read EVA Sessions! This place has it, too! There'll be pizza! Not really! There are other things, too! Not EVA Sessions! Did I mention the pizza!?
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