End of Evangelion and the Audience-Author Membrane

[Chuckman]

[url]http://blip.tv/foldablehuman/s3e2-end-of-evangelion-and-the-audience-author-membrane-6540094[/url]

The first half or so of this piece is mostly information that's well known to the audience here, but when he goes into the meaning of the film he hits on some pretty interesting points that run counter to a lot of the interpretations I've seen (including mine).

There's a pretty elegant explanation here of why Shinji's emergence from the LCL in EoE was a failure and is not thematically or textually the same as the ending of the series itself, establishing EoE as an alternate "bad end" ending to the finale episodes show. It's pretty persuasive.

The followup video:

[url]http://blip.tv/foldablehuman/s3e2-1-end-of-eva-follow-up-6558464[/url]

Covers the differences in the dub, and since I've only ever watched the dub, (I was elected to lead, not to read) it explains how a more sympathetic reading like mine arises. I really do need to watch the original dub.

His interpretation of concurrency makes a lot of sense, too- what happens to the secondary characters is in line with the original intent for the series, what happens to Shinji is not, and was changed to make a statement towards the audience.

There's an interesting point about the two endings representing different possibilities which fall into a dualist moral system.

[Mr. Tines]

Hmm. He gets the interpretation of EoE vs EoTV about right, even if he doesn't into German.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

The most fascinating aspect of this is the conclusion of Weak Concurrency, but from the complete opposite viewpoint of the standard interpretation. The Folding Human basically argues that Shinji accepts himself and reality in EoTV, but essentially rejects himself and reality in EoE.

I'm not in agreement with the conclusion that Shinji's journey through EoE is a complete failure. One More Final is misleading in this sense. Beforehand with Rei and Kaworu, we have an entire sequence where Shinji explicitly states that he understands that the world is painful, but wishes to return and see others anyway. He has chosen to face life, rather than give into a false existence in complementation.

To interpret One More Final as a refutation of this requires interpreting One More Final as being exclusively such a refutation, and denying any other symbolic meaning in the scene. Specifically, it involves ignoring Asuka's caress and Shinji reaction to it. But since this thread should not devolve into yet another opinion and analysis thread on One More Final, it is enough to say that people disagree on this point, and see elements of optimism in this scene.

[Bagheera]

Disappointing. He stopped right as I figured he was on to something, and I wish he'd unpacked his central thesis for another hour or so. As criticism and analysis of the movie goes this is easily one of the best I've yet encountered. Guy knows his stuff. I don't think the idea of concurrency is relevant to his point, though; he's talking about how the two endings reflect the creation process and the relationship between author and viewer; the niceties of plot are an entirely separate, and largely unrelated, issue.

Also, it's not One More Final. OMF is the entire episode, the end sequence is just the last part of OMF. Better to call it EoEoE or something similar.

[The Dragon Mask]

I was instructed necro-ing was better than making new threads, and this isn't even old so I'm glad I found it. I watched the video and the follow up in question and I'd like to add that despite many worthwhile points, he basically ignores everything in the movie that comes after instrumentality's beginning. I've had a lot of time to think about EoE as I have just finished my second cut of a merging of both the TV and Movie ending, and him failing to realize the meaning behind Shinji's words during the final talk before Instrumentality ends is pretty indicative of his misinterpretation of EoE as a whole.

He presented the scene where Shinji rejects instrumentality out of context, with Shinji calling Lilith and Adam's sentimental message "We are the words I love you", saying "But that's just a pretext, it can't possibly be true". Failing to mention that Shinji decides that despite life being rough he wants to live as a person and allows people to recover from Instrumentality is a big deal for me, and makes clear his belief that EoE was just trolling.

Yes, EoE was criticizing Otaku culture, but to believe that the movie was meant only as a big F*** You to fans is viewing it from a very narrow perspective. Shinji is the audience analogue yes, but he is also the author avatar for Hideaki Anno himself. The movie's darkest moments were to call out Otaku's but Anno didn't leave it at that. In the end Shinji came to terms with himself, just the same as he did in EoTV, he just had more obvious reason to hate his own guts. To plunge Shinji into such low depths, then allow redemption through the rejection of a false existence inside Instrumentality is proof that EoE is not meant as so much a "bad" ending, but an elaboration on what events lead to the Instrumentality in EoTV.

What I found most odd, is how Folding Human almost implied that existence in Instrumentality was better than the chance Shinji offered humanity. By proclaiming that Shinji did not restore AT Fields to allow people their identity (and remember, he's not forcing anyone to go one way or the other), but so other's can suffer and experience fear just like himself. That's straight BS. In the end, he has some interesting opinions on the relationships of the characters, but the video comes off as uninformed at times, with too much devotion given to the downfall of Shinji in the movie, and not the redemption just on the other side of the movie. It's almost like he just watched to the point of instrumentality and skipped ahead, seeing bits and pieces of the final moments before stopping on the final scene.

As ObsessiveMathsFreak said, it's as if he ignored important parts of the movie for the sake of proving his point. I see a decidedly bittersweet ending in EoE, not a hopeless one. It's just too bad he doesn't seem to realize that Anno was just making the same point as in EoTV, but much subtler, as the trauma of the rest of the movie may drown it out for some.

My work on the re-cut is progressing smoothly, but I'm not ready to release it. Would putting a torrent be against the rules, if so how could I make it widely available for those who are curious?

[lastcody]

I feel like some of the ideas he brought up are some what sound, however I feel he is so fixated on that his interpretation is just. That he is ignorant of things in the broader scope of the series that counteract his overall argument.

I feel his interpretation of Shinji being 100% the idolization of the fanbase in EoE just for Anno to jab at them. is a little bit off the mark.

Shinji is a "character". He is a person who can be acknowledge as himself, he has established traits and events in his life that builds him into the person he is. Which in turn can be put into a broader scope to identify the "type" of person he is.

Saying that Shinji is the "type" of person that ultimately are like the fanbase that deny the original ending would be more on the mark. Shinji has always been who he is from the very beginning, saying that the choices made in EoE are solely based on Anno showing people who were backlashing at him and Gainax after EoTV, was merely coincidental.

In the end the "fanbase" that backlashed after EoTV in turn were people who were like Shinji and these type of people are a lot of time "Otaku". The type of person who can't find their own self worth and are overly fanatical and pour passion into something that is not their own and use to support their meaning to exist. Sometimes running away from their problems.

I feel EoTv and EoE are two separate things that convey the same message, One (EoE) being a more direct and relentless conveyance of the message. and one (EoTv) being not as much spoon fed to the viewer

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Thanks for a pair of such insightful posts. EoE and Shinji's role in it is indeed a lot deeper than simply being an otaku criticism, or an attack on the audience.

My own view is that both EoE and EoTV are allegories for Shinji's suicide. The message of the series is "don't run away", and for this to have any significance at all in the endings, Shinji must reject complementation and return to an albeit painful real world. It's not a pretty ending, but it is built around a tiny kernel of hope. Rejecting that means rejecting the overall message of Evangelion.

[Blue Monday]

Also, it's not One More Final.

Like "Rebuild", that ship has long sailed unfortunately.

[Bagheera]

Like "Rebuild", that ship has long sailed unfortunately.

Smaller audience, so I still have hope. I mean, I've gotten people around here to stop saying "begs the question", so who knows?

[NemZ]

The only thing I really take issue with is his assertion that in EoE Shinji decides to go back so that others can suffer more fear. He isn't doing it out of spite; that's an unfairly mean-spirited view of the little shit, and misses that Anno isn't done with him. No, he simply accepts that as a fair price for the chance to go back and live in a world before it all went terribly wrong (the idylic 'never was' moment represented by that keepsake photo that was never actually taken) which is what I think he THOUGHT he was getting, only to be dumped back into the world as it actually is and forced to face up to the results of his genocidal tantrum. He thought he was being given a second chance, only to find out that he's very much mired in an 'earn your good ending' universe that doesn't much like him.

[Space Sweeper]

I like how he pronounces 'SEELE'. Makes me want to rescore the Instrumentality initiation scene with Kiss From A Rose.

Anyways, I believe Valkyrie von Thanatos sums up a similar viewpoint to mine on the integrity of Fold's argument. Fold, though he has some well thought out insight into the production folklore (as he refers to it as being), he also ignores the conclusions Shinji comes to within Instrumentality (and its ending), falsely convicting him of doing it merely to spite the rest of humanity. Amongst this, he mixes imagery and dialogue that villainizes Shinji as a spiteful, aimless, sexist pig further than his fallible image clearly presents him as. Yes there is a critique of Otaku 'culture' in EoE, but it is molecular in comparison to the larger picture.

Anno's own disenchantment with the Otaku fanbase can only be so prevalent in the film, and though scenes like Shinji masturbating to a comatose Asuka reflects upon the fanbase, it reflects more upon their broken relationship, along with Shinji's inability to show affection to her (or even profound emotion) in any conscious state between the two of them. The masturbation scene directly reflects upon him about to kiss her as she's asleep in Episode 9, and Fold 'forgets' (quotation marks required?) these relationship beats in order to sell a much more nihilistic and bleak finale instead of one that is bittersweet; a feeling I've always gathered from each viewing after my first.

Also brushed over is the perspective that EoE serves as merely a much more artistically fulfilling version of the series with a thematically aligned outcome, yet through a much more visual, and therefore, darker representation. A giant 'eff you' to fans it most certainly does not seem to be. If not for End of Evangelion, I feel the series would not have the same following and long-lasting (seemingly infinite) level of intrigue that it holds to this day, as it presents the longevity of analysis on both a storytelling and metaphysical level.

I needn't touch upon my thoughts on what both Shinji's strangling of Asuka and her facial caress mean in the end, but I will say, the respectfully differ from Mr. Fold's in major capacity. That said, I was constantly engaged and open through the runtime of his argument and analysis.

[user-02]

^^

Well said.

The giant-middle-finger theory has never really satisfied me -- foremost, because of how massive (and massively self-defeating) an exercise is producing an entirely new ending to the series for the sole (or even primary) purpose of antagonizing the fanbase. This would be roughly equivalent to a popular band's releasing an intentionally shitty album, just to spite its audience. The production costs and timing of making a shitty album are the same as those involved in making a good album. As a fuck-you strategy, it just makes no sense. Eva isn't a webcomic, for instance, where an author controls every aspect of production, the marginal production costs are minimal, the production timing is self-paced, and the author can easily crank out a fuck-you piece at will. Producing a TV episode or feature-length film is a costly undertaking, involving dozens and dozens of staff.

The biting-critique-of-Otaku-culture theory is a somewhat more plausible version of the same thing, though even here, the critique is part of the subtext; it is not the whole. In general, I am leery of any analyses that are overly reductive (e.g., "X is solely about Y," or "X is purely about Y," and so on).

[The Dragon Mask]

He thought he was being given a second chance, only to find out that he's very much mired in an 'earn your good ending' universe that doesn't much like him.

Interesting idea, I never saw it that way. That might explain why he seems so shocked by the state of the world in the final minutes. One theory for his seeming chocking of Asuka posits that he remembered starting Instrumentality by the same act, and was attempting to undo it. I personally think this doesn't quite seem right, but if Shinji was not sure if he was in the "real" world at that moment, it might have been a last ditch effort. I could lay down my thoughts on all these theories, but I'm sure no one wants this thread to get off track. Maybe I should post here or here...

Edit: Thanks for the replies guys, really interesting responses! I'm glad this thread got bumped!

[Chuckman]

The choke scene is the most meta element of the film.

EoE is like a Rubik's cube that's had some of the stickers moved. You almost solve it, but those last few squares refuse to line up even though you know they should. Ultimately it's a coda placed on the ending's supposedly uplifting theme of overcoming your depression. Just because you've overcome your depression doesn't mean all your problems are going to go poof now.

When it comes to the "deliberate fuck you" aspect, it's entirely possible to produces a work of art that harshly challenges the audience without it being low in quality. In fact, EoE's staying power and the years of discussion it's generated are proof of its cinematic quality. It's amazingly well put together, even if it's challenging to watch.

[xdiesp]

It is important not to mix up the ermeneutical and historical method.

[BlackX32]

What bothers me is the way he twisted and manipulated the information the viewer got to make his point(s) seem valid without a possible excuse. Some of what he says has good reasons and I did enjoy specific parts, but his 'forgetfulness' keeps me from considering all of it truly valid. It reminds of of the giant talk about perspective and perception in EoTV.