Masturbating on top of a comatose body

[Lavinius]

I would like to explain my behavior in this thread, before leaving the subject. To be honest, I really think that I shouldn't have to. My questioning was aimed at finding the exact point at and way in which it is believed Shinji's masturbation crossed the line from ethical to unethical. Because a hypocritical belief is a hypocritical belief, no matter how common it is, and I thought that you would have enough maturity to justify your beliefs rather than merely asserting them and dismissing any questioning. That said, I am sorry for my sometimes trollish and pretentious words, and I would like to reassure you that I do find Shinji's behavior very disgusting. Catharsis.

[Bagheera]

As bizarre as it sounds, choking her (in the context of this symbolic framework -I don't mean that choking women is good unless they're into it (no really don't start arguing about this) under any circumstances) is preferable to masturbation. He's no longer keeping himself bottled up (contact only with himself) but his anger lets him reach past his fear and make contact with her. In return, she accepts him even though he hurts her.

True. It amounts to "well, yes, you're strangling me and all, but at least you're paying attention to me, the person, rather than treating me as some sort of object! Progress!" (beat) "Well, fuck, you're still a disgusting little twerp. FML."

[kuribo-04]

(in the context of this symbolic framework -I don't mean that choking women is good unless they're into it (no really don't start arguing about this) under any circumstances

Yeah, it´s better to avoid confussion.

I don't know why it's seen as so bleak either. From a certain point of view, End of Evangelion is a poetic, triumphant love story.

From a certain point of view.

I agree with this. I´m not the only one...

[Felipe]

I get what you're saying Bryan, but I think the conclusion you should reach is "if there are no consequences, it isn't rape" instead of "if there are no consequences, then rape doesn't matter".

Now, I guess we're all having some confusion with the terms of the discussion. When I talk about immoral, I make a clear distincion from "objectionable".

For example: calling someone names for no reason is objectionable and a terrible thing to do, but it's not immoral, because emotional harm has no bearing on wheter something is right or wrong, counterintuitive as it may be. Gendo's parentig style is surely despicable, but it isn't immoral and it certainly shouldn't be illegal.

Finally, let's all just calm down? Why can't we discuss this issue? I have read at least three times someone saying "if you don't get it, I can't continue adressing the issue" in this thread, for fuck's sake.



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EDIT: oops, guess I arrived a bit too late for the discussion. Teaches me to read the entire thing before posting.

On the subject of Asuka forgiving him, doesn't it seem like she would not only forgive him for doing what he did but actually being glad that he did it, with Her being so narcisistic and wanting him to open himself sexually and all? She did say 'I'll even stand here and watch, but only if you're entirely mine", after all.

[Bagheera]

For example: calling someone names for no reason is objectionable and a terrible thing to do, but it's not immoral, because emotional harm has no bearing on wheter something is right or wrong, counterintuitive as it may be. Gendo's parentig style is surely despicable, but it isn't immoral and it certainly shouldn't be illegal.

None of that makes any sense, as emotional harm has a great deal to do with whether or not something's wrong. Indeed, it's the very metric we use to measure such things!

On the subject of Asuka forgiving him, doesn't it seem like she would not only forgive him for doing what he did but actually being glad that he did it, with Her being so narcisistic and wanting him to open himself sexually and all? She did say 'I'll even stand here and watch, but only if you're entirely mine", after all.

No, because Asuka is more histrionic than narcissistic. That is to say, she seeks praise and affirmation because she actually despises herself rather than because she's self-obsessed. If she were a narcissist she would accept the fact that Shinji's pleasuring himself while thinking of her was only natural, but since she's a histrionic she views it as a denial of her worth -- he can only handle her when she's asleep/unconscious because she's rotten and horrible otherwise. It's very, very important that he engage with her, since that would mean he accepts her as a person. That's why Chuckman's on the right track when he says Shinji's strangling her was probably a step up in her eyes -- at least that way he was paying attention to her and interacting with her rather than his idea of her.

Asuka's defining trait is her self-hatred. She does have some traits associated with narcissism, but labeling her one is a superficial reading of her character and ultimately misleading.

[NemZ]

If Shinji had been able to save Asuka from the Mass Production Evangelions then he probably would have, or at least would have tried.

Would he? Because I recall a hell of a lot of being dragged around and decidedly NOT trying to do his part, even after he is made aware that Asuka is awake and fighting against overwhelming odds. The Bakalite wouldn't have been a problem if he'd gone to the cages when the alarm was sounded as he was expected to. And he KNOWS that unit 01 is aware and can move on it's own yet he doesn't seem to make any effort to convince mom that this isn't a good time to do nothing.

The poor kid was completely insane. The outcome was inevitable really.

I don't care how crazy he is, when he decides the whole can world just die he's gone over the moral event horizon. And why did he do this? Because Asuka (rightly) tells him to go fuck himself when he has the nerve to ask her for help after offering her none when she needed, and even then only because he felt she was the least scary of his options.

I can safely say, if I had been in his shoes, I would have strangled her too.

She was absolutely in the right there, though. And again, crazy or not he's still a despicable little shit. Insanity may offer an explanation for such acts but it does not excuse them. Asuka would be fully justified in returning the favor, perhaps with the guts to see it to the end.

On another note, at least remember that he only jerks off.

Just as he doesn't have it in him to actually kill himself, he also doesn't have the drive to actually rape her. It's not for lack of desire, just lack of conviction; even in his failures he finds ways to fail harder.

Also, while EoE undoubtedly IS canon, EoTV is strongly my preferred end to the story. I agree with you on that at least. I actually don't have anything against that Shinji at all.

[Dream]

Just as he doesn't have it in him to actually kill himself, he also doesn't have the drive to actually rape her. It's not for lack of desire, just lack of conviction; even in his failures he finds ways to fail harder.

Sorry, but i just can't think that Shinji intended or wanted to rape Asuka in the hospital. It just doesn't fit with everything Shinji is, EoE included. It's worth noting that he never really feels happy about it, in fact he doesn't feel anything but pain and shame on the matter. If he intended to rape someone he wouldn't be feeling that way, and while it's true that even in this situation he's remarkably self-absorved, one can't discount the fact he did keep Asuka as a person in mind (as much as he is capable of, at least).

[Bagheera]

Also, while EoE undoubtedly IS canon, EoTV is strongly my preferred end to the story. I agree with you on that at least. I actually don't have anything against that Shinji at all.

It still baffles me that you consider NGE!Shinji and EoE!Shinji different people. I mean, we see elements of the latter all over the place in the series, and nothing that happens in EoE is all that out of character given what he's been through at that point. It's just Shinji being Shinji.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

Sorry, but i just can't think that Shinji intended or wanted to rape Asuka in the hospital. It just doesn't fit with everything Shinji is, EoE included. It's worth noting that he never really feels happy about it, in fact he doesn't feel anything but pain and shame on the matter. If he intended to rape someone he wouldn't be feeling that way, and while it's true that even in this situation he's remarkably self-absorved, one can't discount the fact he did keep Asuka as a person in mind (as much as he is capable of, at least).

It's like the wanking over her is his "I'm going to rape you, but only go partway with it" moment. This is just an idea that floated through my head last year.

[Lavinius]

Just as he doesn't have it in him to actually kill himself, he also doesn't have the drive to actually rape her. It's not for lack of desire, just lack of conviction; even in his failures he finds ways to fail harder.

Good God man, Shinji would not have raped Asuka. What is the foundation of this grave accusation?

I don't care how crazy he is, when he decides the whole can world just die he's gone over the moral event horizon. And why did he do this? Because Asuka (rightly) tells him to go fuck himself...

And nothing to do with how he was being crucified with space magic to destroy his Ego, the rational part of him, which would have given him a choice whether to actualize his feelings? I do not believe that he was 'insane' in the sense of losing resposibility for his actions before then. But since he is having his soul literally broken and torn apart, I would let him off on what it does then.

[user-02]

Wow, I step away from this thread for work and come back to find it...well, in much the same state, only a few pages longer.

Bryan, I understand what you're saying, and I think what you're looking for is a non-recursive, non-tautological explanation for why the act was immoral. So here it is: the act was immoral because it took place without Asuka's consent. That's the heart of it. Asuka was made to do something (viz., appear nude to Shinji for his sexual gratification) without her knowledge or her say in the matter. That, in and of itself, makes the act immoral. The sexual nature of the act amplifies the degree of immorality, as does the fact that Asuka was unconscious when it happened.

Compelling someone to do something against her will is immoral. If we accept that premise, then we can think of unconsciousness and sexuality as mathematical / logical multipliers to the immorality, with the product yielding the degree of immorality. It's worse because she couldn't say no or fight back. It's also worse because it was a sexual act.

Now, I don't think this answer will satisfy you, in as much as you seem to take a relativistic opinion of immorality, i.e., Asuka needs to have observed or experienced the act in order to have been harmed by it. But this isn't true. Asuka's dignity was violated, regardless of whether she was aware of it.

I'll leave it up to you to decide whether you still find this act to have been immoral. But if you don't, then essentially, you are arguing for a purely subjective view of reality, such that Shinji doesn't actually exist w/r/t Asuka when Asuka is not conscious, or, to use NL's point, the tree doesn't make a sound when no one's around to hear it. The only flaw with that logic is that Shinji was around to hear the tree, so to speak. There was an observer, ergo, a frame of reference, ergo, an act.

[NemZ]

It still baffles me that you consider NGE!Shinji and EoE!Shinji different people.

It's the same guy taken to very different ends, hence they stop being the same person.

Good God man, Shinji would not have raped Asuka. What is the foundation of this grave accusation?

He obviously wanted her, and clearly was okay with transgressing some person and social boundaries with jerking off in her hospital room. It's also not the first time he's considered taking sexual advantage of her in her sleep. It's really not that far a stretch, but it is further than Shinji has the conviction to go, at least this time.

And nothing to do with how he was being crucified with space magic to destroy his Ego, the rational part of him, which would have given him a choice whether to actualize his feelings?

I think the point of that was just to get him to accept being tanged again. He seemed to be entirely aware and conscious of his actions after that. He makes that choice specifically because Asuka rightfully tells him off... he can't have his way so game over; it's the equivalent of a spoiled little brat tossing a chessboard rather than admit he lost, except in this case the pieces are everyone on the planet.

[Bagheera]

It's the same guy taken to very different ends, hence they stop being the same person.

See, I don't agree. Thriving seeds of both ends were there long before we got to the end, so all we're seeing in the ends are facets of the same guy.

He obviously wanted her, and clearly was okay with transgressing some person and social boundaries with jerking off in her hospital room. It's also not the first time he's considered taking sexual advantage of her in her sleep. It's really not that far a stretch, but it is further than Shinji has the conviction to go, at least this time.

That's one of those facets I mentioned above. The groundwork for this aspect of what we see in EoE was laid down as early as episode 9, and the "everyone can just die" bit even earlier (episode 4, maybe). Why fuss about the particulars afterward?

[Bryan]

I get what you're saying Bryan, but I think the conclusion you should reach is "if there are no consequences, it isn't rape"

It kinda is though. Rape has a pretty clear definition of sex without consent. The same thing with sexual assault. They're definitely ugly words that seem to scare away anyone who sees them.

emotional harm has no bearing on wheter something is right or wrong, counterintuitive as it may be. Gendo's parentig style is surely despicable, but it isn't immoral and it certainly shouldn't be illegal.

I don't really know what you're trying to say here. I think people definitely have a right to be protected from harm and denying it is immoral. Though, you could consider it moral to harm if it protects from a greater harm. Nothing is absolutely good or evil.

[CJD]

It's really not that far a stretch

I think the stretch from "Jacking off to her comatose body" and "Raping" is actually a pretty far stretch... I mean, unless you're going to argue that Shinji was a sexual predator at heart, and this was just how it started before he escalated into full scale rape. I haven't been reading this thread so I don't know if anyone's made that claim, but I think that'd be an inaccurate assessment. Not trying to defend his actions in the hospital or anything, but he's a horny pervert, not a sexual predator.

[Bryan]

Wow, I step away from this thread for work and come back to find it...well, in much the same state, only a few pages longer.

Bryan, I understand what you're saying, and I think what you're looking for is a non-recursive, non-tautological explanation for why the act was immoral. So here it is: the act was immoral because it took place without Asuka's consent. That's the heart of it. Asuka was made to do something (viz., appear nude to Shinji for his sexual gratification) without her knowledge or her say in the matter. That, in and of itself, makes the act immoral. The sexual nature of the act amplifies the degree of immorality, as does the fact that Asuka was unconscious when it happened.

Compelling someone to do something against her will is immoral. If we accept that premise, then we can think of unconsciousness and sexuality as mathematical / logical multipliers to the immorality, with the product yielding the degree of immorality. It's worse because she couldn't say no or fight back. It's also worse because it was a sexual act.

Now, I don't think this answer will satisfy you, in as much as you seem to take a relativistic opinion of immorality, i.e., Asuka needs to have observed or experienced the act in order to have been harmed by it. But this isn't true. Asuka's dignity was violated, regardless of whether she was aware of it.

I'll leave it up to you to decide whether you still find this act to have been immoral. But if you don't, then essentially, you are arguing for a purely subjective view of reality, such that Shinji doesn't actually exist w/r/t Asuka when Asuka is not conscious, or, to use NL's point, the tree doesn't make a sound when no one's around to hear it. The only flaw with that logic is that Shinji was around to hear the tree, so to speak. There was an observer, ergo, a frame of reference, ergo, an act.

This is well-written and you understand a lot. Just to restate so everyone is clear, I obviously find what Shinji did to be immoral. As you probably know, I agree with a lot you're saying, pretty much all of it in regards to Shinji. There's one thing I would really like to know from you. I think the key point we disagree on is that Asuka's dignity was violated. How do you define dignity? My definition is basically having self-worth, self-esteem, self-respect and self-whatever else good. It's as relativistic of a thing as there is. Nobody can take away your dignity, but yourself. Certainly, people can have an effect on you, but not while you're unconscious and never have any way of knowing anyone even did anything to you. Yeah, my view is relativistic, but with a term like dignity is it really possible not to be? I don't think so.

I absolutely am arguing for a purely subjective view of reality. That's how I view reality. However, the whole tree thing is simply not how my idea works. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, it makes a sound. I'm just saying if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, it might as well have not fallen or made a sound and nobody's life would be one iota different. Is that idea really so insane? Or is it that when I use the word rape instead of tree, the idea suddenly becomes impossible to understand?

[user-02]

How do you define dignity? My definition is basically having self-worth, self-esteem, self-respect and self-whatever else good. It's as relativistic of a thing as there is. Nobody can take away your dignity, but yourself. Certainly, people can have an effect on you, but not while you're unconscious and never have any way of knowing anyone even did anything to you. Yeah, my view is relativistic, but with a term like dignity is it really possible not to be? I don't think so.

If you believe the act was immoral, then my main point is made. I can certainly indulge a semantics discussion over how we define "dignity," and from there, how we can qualify what harm, if any, was actually visited upon Asuka. But beyond a point, I am not sure what end we can reach from it.

Where you and I differ in our definition of dignity is that I think it has an external component. Asuka has been (to an extent up for probably endless debate) dehumanized by Shinji. She has been rendered an object in his eyes, even if momentarily. And so we don't need Asuka's frame of reference to define the assault on her dignity here, because by "dignity," I mean how she is regarded every bit as much as I mean how she regards herself.

Shinji took something from her. It's no different from having taken a physical possession of hers, except that what he took is intangible.

[Bryan]

If you believe the act was immoral, then my main point is made. I can certainly indulge a semantics discussion over how we define "dignity," and from there, how we can qualify what harm, if any, was actually visited upon Asuka. But beyond a point, I am not sure what end we can reach from it.

Where you and I differ in our definition of dignity is that I think it has an external component. Asuka has been (to an extent up for probably endless debate) dehumanized by Shinji. She has been rendered an object in his eyes, even if momentarily. And so we don't need Asuka's frame of reference to define the assault on her dignity here, because by "dignity," I mean how she is regarded every bit as much as I mean how she regards herself.

Shinji took something from her. It's no different from having taken a physical possession of hers, except that what he took is intangible.

What is a person? We have a physical body, intellectual ideas and emotions. That's about all I can think of. How we are regarded by others definitely affects how we feel, i.e, our emotions, but we don't have those while we're unconscious. Asuka was regarded as an object in his eyes, but it was just momentarily. What matters is it was while she was unconscious and therefore had no way of knowing. If we were comparing this to the theft of a physical possession, then it's as if he stole it but put it back before she knew it was gone. It's still immoral in regards to Shinji, but by making it so there was absolutely no detriment to Asuka, he has rectified anything immoral that could've happened to her. Put another way, it did happen to be Asuka who was objectified, but if it had been someone else it would be equally immoral and equally irrelevant to Asuka.

[NemZ]

See, I don't agree. Thriving seeds of both ends were there long before we got to the end, so all we're seeing in the ends are facets of the same guy.

Yeah, but that only works in retrospect. If anything it's just further evidence of prior scenes being retconned (via interpretation, not direct change) through adding more information.

For example, his attempting to sneak a kiss in her sleep is fairly innocent, especially since it's not even really his fault she ended up in that vulnerable state. The hospital scene however pushes it way further and also establishes a pattern where before there was none. In retrospect it works but from the earlier scene it is unreasonable to expect that leap.

Or the 'they can all just die' moment... in retrospect it sorta works with his charecterization, but prior to EoE there was no indication at all that Shinji was willing to intentionally harm others. It seemed far, far more likely he'd kill himself before taking it out on others.

[Lorkhan]

Good golly holly, this thread is something else.

What is a person? We have a physical body, intellectual ideas and emotions. That's about all I can think of.

Kay?

How we are regarded by others definitely affects how we feel, i.e, our emotions, but we don't have those while we're unconscious.

Come again? Where exactly do they go? A person is still capable of reflection despite them not participating in certain actions. Being unaware doesn't change that.

Asuka was regarded as an object in his eyes, but it was just momentarily. What matters is it was while she was unconscious and therefore had no way of knowing. If we were comparing this to the theft of a physical possession, then it's as if he stole it but put it back before she knew it was gone.

What? You mean, like, her dignity? That's still out the window, no matter if no one's around to witness it. The damage is done, even if she was caught unawares.

It's still immoral in regards to Shinji, but by making it so there was absolutely no detriment to Asuka, he has rectified anything immoral that could've happened to her.

Explain to me how Shinji made the situation all better. By not going further on what is already a pretty creepy act? Surely you're not serious.