Was Adam destined to wake up?

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Was Adam destined to wake up?

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Postby n2eva » Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:50 am

Was Adam destined to awaken eventually or would he have remained forever dormant with the Lance of Longinus if never discovered in Antarctica?

Were the Dead Sea Scrolls predicting his eventual awakening or are they just saying what would happen in case he awakens(or is awakened rather)?

I'm thinking it's the latter on both questions-a scenario of Adam being discovered accidentally and Seele immediately stepping in already knowing the truth-setting their plans in motion.

I may have have overlooked something in reading the wiki section on Secret Dead Sea Scrolls/Classified Information. Maybe it's supposed to be unclear.

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Postby Razeil100 » Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:53 am

I would assume that he would eventually awaken to take the plant from the lilim. The whole black moon/white moon turf war.

Not sure if there has been an official answer though.
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Postby Alaska Slim » Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:17 am

Classified Information: Dead Sea Scrolls wrote:The prophetic text in which the times of the Angels' appearances are recorded.


Also, big red button principle.
Last edited by Alaska Slim on Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Monk Ed » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:22 am

That segment you quoted from the CI is from the same level of information which proclaims the white giant to be Adam and not Lilith, and deeper levels implicitly contradict that characterization by describing it not as a prophecy but as a manual.
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Postby Alaska Slim » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:53 am

View Original PostMonk Ed wrote:That segment you quoted from the CI is from the same level of information which proclaims the white giant to be Adam and not Lilith, and deeper levels implicitly contradict that characterization by describing it not as a prophecy but as a manual.


Same deeper levels of SEELE:

Upon acquiring the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls, Seele turned once again to a creed that, up to that point, they had considered naught but the pipe dreams of their ancestors. By putting the miracle of divinity, in the form of prophecy, within their sights, they restored the faith. Their dogma is the Path to Adam Kadmon — that is, the approaching of a divinity both ageless and undying.


Same deeper levels of the Dead Sea Scrolls:

They are written prophecy, in so far as they remain active even in the current day according to a design of the past.

Until then, Seele had only fragmentary knowledge of the scrolls' contents and existence, but they had never imagined that the scrolls might actually exist, contain meaningful prophecies, and turn up in near-perfect condition.

Even if these terms apply in only a technical sense, the result is the same, it was going to happen.

It's also clear the red button principle applies to SEELE. They weren't about to let this chance go, and no one, as far as we know, could stop them.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:14 am

Relevant information:

SDSS wrote:The Secret Dead Sea Scrolls are a scripture written by the First Ancestral Race, a manual regarding the Seed of Life (Progenitor Entity) and the usage of the Spear of Longinus security device, possibly while applying a scheme at the time of use to a religious group's own doctrines.


They are "prophecy" in the sense of "if A then B". Once SEELE set things in motion various other things had to happen as a result, and the manual explained how that all worked. That's as far as it went, though; Adam didn't have to wake up now any more than he did at any point in the last three and a half billion years.
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Still the same. Bl

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Postby Alaska Slim » Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:33 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote: That's as far as it went, though; Adam didn't have to wake up now any more than he did at any point in the last three and a half billion years.

The question is not "Did he have to"? It's "Was it inevitable?"

These documents were doomed to be found, if they could survive several billion years of existence, they could have survived for even longer and been found eventually even if they hadn't been by chance in the 1940s.

And the truth is, the more time passed, the higher the chance they would have been discovered, as anthropological techniques and record keeping improved and information became more easily shared.

But more importantly, SEELE is an organization whom has existed for centuries, and had wanted to execute what was in the scrolls even before they were found.

Because of them, the answer is clear, Adam's awakening was going to happen, nothing could have stopped it, because humans are dicks unto themselves.


“Men heap together the mistakes of their lives, and create a monster they call Destiny.” - John Hobbes

"Destiny" here can be substituted with "Eva".
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:45 pm

View Original PostAlaska Slim wrote:The question is not "Did he have to"? It's "Was it inevitable?"


No, it's "Was it destined?" It's not the same thing. The fact that his awakening was inevitable says nothing about whether or not it was destined, nor about whether or not prophecy had anything to do with it.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
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Postby Alaska Slim » Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:49 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:No, it's "Was it destined?"

"Inevitable" and "destined" are synonyms, hence my word choice. Still, I'm not going to argue further over semantics.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:The fact that his awakening was inevitable says nothing about whether or not it was destined

By SEELE having foreknowledge of the scrolls existence, and a monopoly on the knowledge of its true purpose, they made it their destiny, and by extension, Adam destined to be reawakened.

If Adam's awakening had occurred merely by accident, I would agree with you, but it wasn't, it was an intentional outcome brought about by forces eons in the making.
Last edited by Alaska Slim on Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sephizim » Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:59 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:No, it's "Was it destined?" It's not the same thing. The fact that his awakening was inevitable says nothing about whether or not it was destined, nor about whether or not prophecy had anything to do with it.

This might be slightly off-topic, but the above exemplifies an interesting aspect of trying to unravel the secrets of EVA. Many people are going to read a lot into the series based on their own beliefs. Some people believe in fate and destiny, and others believe in concepts like inevitability or likelihood. I think that will determine how a lot of people deal with this issue in particular. Whether or not Adam was fated to awaken is up to your own interpretation. I mean, the Dead Sea Scrolls seem like they were written as a "in case this happens, then all of these things will/are very likely to happen." As long as the Lance did its job, though, Adam would have remained asleep. But when you say whether or not mankind finding Adam was fate or just probability, well, that's up to your personal beliefs.

Personally, given how I view the series, it does not seem like "fate" is a concept that quite fits with the show. One of the major themes is shaping the future with one's own hand. The SDSS's written scenario was probably the scenario that was most likely to happen if nobody did anything to stop it. Therefore, the awakening of Adam and all that happened afterward was caused by deliberate human actions. Whether or not these decisions were some unconscious movement of the hand of fate is less of an argument about Evangelion, and more of an argument about the nature of destiny in general.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:20 pm

View Original PostAlaska Slim wrote:"Inevitable" and "destined" are synonyms, hence my word choice. Still, I'm not going to argue further over semantics.


It's an important distinction, though (and the reason we have two words to work with instead of one). I can say, for example, that it's inevitable that someone will write a literary masterpiece in the next hundred years, but that says nothing about destiny. If I start talking about a specific individual or work that's where destiny comes in.

If I read a car manual and find that my car will stop functioning if, say, the radiator is not properly maintained, does that mean I can write the car's fate off to destiny when I fail to attend to the radiator? Not really. The manual does not prophesize the failure of my vehicle as a result of my negligence; it just tells me what will happen if I fail to maintain it. Similarly, the SDSSs do not prophesize the events of NGE in any meaningful fashion. They only tell us what will happen if we're dumb enough to revive a dormant SoL

It's not just a matter of semantics. Words mean things.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
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People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Alaska Slim » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:13 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:It's an important distinction, though (and the reason we have two words to work with instead of one). I can say, for example, that it's inevitable that someone will write a literary masterpiece in the next hundred years, but that says nothing about destiny.

Because you're speaking in generality, not of a specific person or their specific actions.

If writer "A" has a given interest in a subject, and given skills in writing, it can be said they are/were destined to write a significant novel of that subject.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:If I start talking about a specific individual or work that's where destiny comes in.

Indeed, and SEELE and their actions are both specific. I'm not saying "some organization will do something that ends the world eventually", I'm saying, specifically, SEELE is going to do this, because they have the specific interest, the specific knowledge, and the means necessary.

Their destiny, the scrolls, and Adam, are all intertwined, leaving the events that unfolded destined to occur.

Was Adam destined to awaken eventually or would he have remained forever dormant with the Lance of Longinus if never discovered in Antarctica?

It was SEELE who made the answer to this question the former.

Evangelion is a world where the Illuminati exists, and is always pulling the strings behind the scenes to bring about what they want. And they wanted 2nd impact, so it was their destiny they would make it happen.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:If I read a car manual and find that my car will stop functioning if, say, the radiator is not properly maintained, does that mean I can write the car's fate off to destiny when I fail to attend to the radiator? Not really. The manual does not prophesize the failure of my vehicle as a result of my negligence; it just tells me what will happen if I fail to maintain it.

It's more like a car restorer with a love of Mustangs finding the manual to a rare '68 Shelby Cobra, that they otherwise wouldn't have known how to put back together.

What changes it from "going to happen" to "destined to happen", is having stakes involved.

And as I said, the scrolls being "prophetic" only by technicality, doesn't change the destiny involved for Adam and SEELE.
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Postby arkiel » Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:40 pm

No, it was not inevitable. Why?

Well, Adam is located in one of the most inhospitable places on the planet, Antarctica. This restricted its discovery until modern times.

Humans discovered Adam late in the 20th century (exactly when? Dunno).

Humans harnessed the atom and became capable of extinguishing all life on the planet in the 1960s -- about four decades before Adam was located to be the object of ill-advised contact experiments.

Mankind gained the ability to destroy itself by its own hand before it located the creepy alien god at the top of the world. If the Cuban Missile crisis had gone the other way, Adam would not have been bothered. This cycle could repeat itself for as long as the Earth remains capable of sustaining life.

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Postby n2eva » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:03 pm

I think I should clarify that in my original question I didn't intend to mean "destined" as in the cosmic or universal fate sense. I meant it as was Adam going to wake up from underneath the ice somehow without any human tampering or would he have remained dormant if never discovered.

I'm going to go ahead go with the consensus and stick with how I-at least I think-correctly interpreted it.

No, Adam would not have awakened if never discovered and no, the DSS were not saying he would awaken-just what would happen in case he did.

I agree that had humanity gone extinct for some other reason he would stay forever buried and asleep. Being that he was accidentally discovered Seele intitiated their prophecy/manual based plan(what the DSS indicated would happen in case he was wakened).

Everyone's input interesting and much appreciated.
Last edited by n2eva on Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:13 pm

View Original Postn2eva wrote:I think I should clarify that in my original question I didn't intend to mean "destined" as in the cosmic or universal fate sense. I meant it as was Adam going to wake up from underneath the ice somehow without any human tampering or would he have remained dormant if never discovered.


Given the nature of the Lance Adam's revival sans human interference would be extremely unlikely.
For my post-3I fic, go here.
The law doesn't protect people. People protect the law. -- Akane Tsunemori, Psycho-Pass
People's deaths are to be mourned. The ability to save people should be celebrated. Life itself should be exalted. -- Volken Macmani, Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
Yes, I know. You thought it would be something about Asuka. You're such idiots.

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Postby Alaska Slim » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:45 pm

View Original Postarkiel wrote:If the Cuban Missile crisis had gone the other way, Adam would not have been bothered.

You could argue SEELE made sure that didn't happen.

Again, Evangelion is a world where the Illuminati exists, no major event occurs without their input or management (unless caused by someone who is apart of, and understands them, e.g. Gendo).

Further, the Cuban Missile Crisis would not have been the end of the world, even if things did go sideways.

SPOILER: Show
Only the short range missiles were prepared, and they would have left most of the United States (and more importantly, our own missile fields, which could still wipe the Soviets off the face of the map) intact.

President Kennedy knew that, and called the Soviet's bluff, and even went so far as to take down our operational missiles in Turkey to sweeten the deal for them.
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Postby arkiel » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:30 pm

Mankind possessed the ability to destroy itself prior to Second Impact.

SEELE, and the Dead Sea Scrolls themselves, are likely not a part of the cosmic question of whether Lilith-based life would have inevitably initiated Second Impact.

SEELE preventing M.A.D. doctrine from going into effect is entirely speculative. Looking at the show timeline in a historical context gives rise to empirical observations, which is what my thing was.

If we're going your route, why not explain every mystery in the series with "Quantum!Rei did it?"

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Postby Trajan » Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:09 pm

It was neither destined nor inevitable. Seele chose to interpret the Dead Sea Scrolls, Seele chose to wake up Adam, and Seele chose to try and implement 3I. One of the main themes of the series is choice and chalking up things to destiny spits in the face of that.
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Postby Allemann » Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:20 pm

View Original PostTrajan wrote:It was neither destined nor inevitable. Seele chose to interpret the Dead Sea Scrolls, Seele chose to wake up Adam, and Seele chose to try and implement 3I. One of the main themes of the series is choice and chalking up things to destiny spits in the face of that.


That would be true if we didn't see how Rei appears to Shinji in Ep.1. This betrays that time in Eva is a static block where all instances of time and events in them are simultaneously realized. What we see is a deterministic train of events with no genuine possibility of altering its path.

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Postby Xard » Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:23 pm

Or alternatively Rei just doesn't give a shit about time. You're giving too much thought for that, Allemann


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