Souls, Contact Experiments and Evas, oh my!

[TheBlueTree]

shoot, dubble post sorry

[Oblivious]

Whoops, my mistake. Will edit now.

[rb_182_]

Yes I just checked and it was definately Shamshel whom they had that part of in episode 5 and Ritsuko said it was a 98% DNA match to our human DNA

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Firstly- let's assume that the Evas did have souls of their own- after all, I don't see why they shouldn't. They were grown articifically, but if we were to assume that all of NERV/Gehirns meddling in them came after they were more or less fully grown and didn't interfere with the early stages, I don't see why they should be any different from any other lifeform.

Amoung some of the other things discussed in this thead, was the likelihood of the Eva's not having any souls of their own. The basic argument here, is that although Nerv can transfer souls, they do not seem to be able to create or obtain any. Or at least, obtain any souls of sufficient calibur to animate an Evangelion. Ritsuko's words in episode #23 could be cited as evidence here. "The Chamber Of Guf was empty". That is, Nerv could not obtain a soul for the evangelion. Also, as was discussed in the thread, the Eva's lack of an S^2 organ could also be conjectured to point towards their lack of an initial soul.

However, the idea of some kind of primal Evangelion soul present in the units before Yui and Kyoko were imbued in them has been discussed before. The savagery of Unit-01's actions in contrast to the beatific Yui, gives supporting evidence to the idea of some kind of other presence being in the Evangelions along with the human essance. It was speculated somewhere that this may also be the result of the human soul simply being under the influence of its new body in some way. A matter of hormones perhaps? Whether due to a previous soul or simply a matter of phisiology, it seems that the humans within have been influenced by their new forms.


As to the Soul-ATF link, I believe the connection between the two is fairly concrete. Kaworu's words in episode #24, as well as Nerv's considerable trouble to aquire a soul would seem to suggest that the ATF is some kind of Soul/Ego barrier. Like a cell wall for the self.

[TheBlueTree]

Or another skin

[TsubasaNoKoikokoro]

In response to this thread, I will take the obvious route.

The soul is your goals, love and emotions. You do not need a soul to live but it will not be you living without a soul, just a talking shell. IE. Kyoko.

Yui had a diffrent case where she completly vanished but same idea.

Soul in Eva means same love. Love makes Evas protect pilots who are their soul's children

That is all my simplistic mind will let me think. =p

[BLACKANGEL32076]

Well I don't try to overanalyse eva that's for sure. There were just a few things I didn't get about the show. But I agree that if I know about them, then it takes the fun and mystery out. and also I respect DatDude's decision not to overanalyse everything because everybody watches shows diferently. some people try to figure out everything way too hard, and some people take it at face value and just watch it as a show and not study it. I'm inbetween. I like to just watch it as a show, but also find a few answers on the forums too. :)

I agree with you 100%. That is the whole reason I go on the Forums. At the same time, we as fans must NEVER lose sight of what Eva REALLY is. It is the story of Shinji, Rei, Asuka, and Misato, 4 emotionally wounded individuals, and the people they interact with. Everything else, from the Angel War to the science that makes it possible is merely a backdrop to these 4 people, what the go through when faced with extreme circumstances, and how they deal with them. Why do you think Eva has so many plotholes in it? The sources in the plotholes weren't the issue, the people were.

...but that's just my two cents.

[rb_182_]

yep exactly. Everything you just said is supported by the original ending. the original ending is about the mentally wounded 4 main characters and how they talk their problems over and find answers, especially Shinji. The end of evangelion is about the angels and other stuff.

[TheBlueTree]

I liked the original ending, But I was like wtf when there like we only have a short amount of time so were just gana cover Shinji. They got half way through Rei and Asuka, they could of atleast finished them.

[rb_182_]

I have only one problem with the original ending. In that Kaji is in Instrumentality. Other than that, the ending is perfect. If you watch the director's cut of episode 24, SEELE says that Lillith is the progenetor of mankind and Adam is the progenetor of the angels. so you now know that Lillith gave birth to the humans. and then Kaworu hints at it as well in the end of the episode where he says "Lillith?!! Now I understand.. the lillim, Lillith!!". and then Shinji kills Kaworu, and the last angel is gone. so basically the angel storyline is done, then they wrap up the characters feeling and emotional problems in the last two episodes. thus a great complete ending. but the only thing that bugged me about the original ending was Kaji as I mentioned.

and the reason for this is because he was dead before instumentality. by at least a few days. or a week. everyone else I understand because they were alive when turned into LCL and absorbed all into Lillith. but in End of Evangelion Kaji isn't there. so it makes more sence in my opinion.

[Space Penis]

Misato and Ritsuko were dead before their souls were absorbed.

[Shin-seiki]

I have only one problem with the original ending. In that Kaji is in Instrumentality. Other than that, the ending is perfect. If you watch the director's cut of episode 24, SEELE says that Lillith is the progenetor of mankind and Adam is the progenetor of the angels. so you now know that Lillith gave birth to the humans. and then Kaworu hints at it as well in the end of the episode where he says "Lillith?!! Now I understand.. the lillim, Lillith!!". and then Shinji kills Kaworu, and the last angel is gone. so basically the angel storyline is done, then they wrap up the characters feeling and emotional problems in the last two episodes. thus a great complete ending. but the only thing that bugged me about the original ending was Kaji as I mentioned.

and the reason for this is because he was dead before instumentality. by at least a few days. or a week. everyone else I understand because they were alive when turned into LCL and absorbed all into Lillith. but in End of Evangelion Kaji isn't there. so it makes more sence in my opinion.

I can't think of any reason to preclude the possibility that Kaji was present in Instrumentality. In the manga, Sadamoto even has him "seeing" his brother and the gang as he dies (which could be intended as Rei appearing to him as she does to just about everyone else in the cast as they expire...) Also, he's included in the group shot in EoE shown as Shinji decides to reject Instrumentality ("Still, I want to see them again..."), which to me strongly implies that he's eligible to come back, just like everyone else.

[rb_182_]

Yeah I see what you mean. but I wonder how Rei can collect Kaji's soul way back then. because she doesn't have those powers until she merges with Lillith and becomes uber Rei. but I guess somethings we'll never understand about this show lol

[Mr. Tines]

The apparitions of Rei who gather everyone up looks rather like Rei the very first time we see her. Maybe she can go back and retroactively redeem the past in some fashion.

[Zuggy]

Uh-huh. I said a while back that the angels employ something that's similar to the Delta (T) Time Factor to pop outta nowhere and be able to 'look' within the past. As you do Mr. Tines.

'1' refers to Zugzwang.
'2' refers to Mr. Tines.

1 2
1 2

These are both interlocked with previous information, it's funny how people think they can get away with it here when all the data is recorded!

[DatDude]

Yeah I see what you mean. but I wonder how Rei can collect Kaji's soul way back then. because she doesn't have those powers until she merges with Lillith and becomes uber Rei. but I guess somethings we'll never understand about this show lol

Actual they dance around the issue if people that died before 3I can come back.

We never see or hear Kaji, in instrumenatality the way we do the main cast.

Shame I wanted the dashing roge to come back. Not saying he didn't just that we have no evidence.

[superdoughboy4]

Well, in the series, he did talk with Shinji, like Misato, in a short period of time.
That had some signifance to Shinji.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

Sticking to the principal that only the "freshly" dead can take part in instrumentality, Kaji shouldn't be there. But there's nothing that really suggests that this is the case. After all most of the cast present only dies in the last few hours.

Kaji is a kind of exception, but whether he proves a rule or clarifiys one is another question. I don't think his presence is expressly precluded by anything or makes comment on the nature of what Shinji is expieriencing.

[DatDude]

For once I'm with OMF.