Angel's can't get to Lilith [-> Fok vs FoL]

[illustriusCheese]

How do the Angels plan to get to Lilith? All they really seem to be able to do is stay right above it. Examples: The water-based angels can't get anywhere near, Ramiel was to fat to fit down his tunnel, and as far as I know, no Angel has come close to Zereul's firepower. So can any one tell me how they would have gotten there

[TaintedHero]

Well the angels took the fruit of life instead of knowledge(aka bronze over brains), so they probably never had a plan on how to get to Lilth. Had they survived long enough they would have most likely used their brute strength to tunnel or just smash their way to Lilth.

[illustriusCheese]

Well the angels took the fruit of life instead of knowledge(aka bronze over brain.

Never thought of it that way

[Aozora]

I thought Ramiel would fire a beam down the hole it drilled. That would either destroy everything, or open a large enough entrance for it to get down there. Now that I think of it, most of the angels seem bent on destruction without a clear method of reaching Lilith...

[Reichu]

Well the angels took the fruit of life instead of knowledge(aka bronze over brains)

"Brawn", surely?

Ingenuity as we know it generally seems to arise from limitations. Though, Angels don't lack inventiveness; and, even in us, "brains" are a gradually cultivated ability. We are probably guided as much by animal / subconscious desire and impulses as we are by intellect and logic. Well, the Angels and us are fundamentally the same, aren't we?

[AshPhoenix]

Well, the Angels and us are fundamentally the same, aren't we?

As stated by Ritsuko, yes.

It seems more along the lines of "humans can learn more efficiently than Angels" than "humans are smarter than Angels" to me. Humans can adapt quickly to any environment that they're put in, whereas the Angels needed several individuals to finally comprehend a general idea (i.e, at the beginning the Angels just wanted to blow stuff up and find Adam, but as the series progressed, their motivations became more and more complex and "human").

[Reichu]

Humans can adapt quickly to any environment that they're put in, whereas the Angels needed several individuals to finally comprehend a general idea

To be picky, this in and of itself doesn't signify a true difference. Lilin knowledge is transmitted and generally cumulative over generations. Lilin have had billions of lives over thousands of years to figure things out, abetted by their "colonial" structure. In comparison, the Angels manage quite a lot in very little time, between a very few lonely, short-lived individuals.

[AshPhoenix]

To be picky, this in and of itself doesn't signify a true difference. Lilin knowledge is transmitted and generally cumulative over generations. Lilin have had billions of lives over thousands of years to figure things out, abetted by their "colonial" structure. In comparison, the Angels manage quite a lot in very little time, between a very few lonely, short-lived individuals.

This is true, but my point is that a single human can learn a lot more in his or her lifetime than a single Angel.

Also, regarding the "short-lived individuals part": We don't know how long the Angels incubated, or what went on in their minds during such a period, so we don't really know how long each one lived (or what they accomplished mentally during gestation).

[Monk Ed]

This is true, but my point is that a single human can learn a lot more in his or her lifetime than a single Angel.

Also, regarding the "short-lived individuals part": We don't know how long the Angels incubated, or what went on in their minds during such a period, so we don't really know how long each one lived (or what they accomplished mentally during gestation).

There's also the issue as to what's learned vs what's inborn "knowledge".

As I recall, giraffes literally hit the ground walking from birth. Doesn't mean that lead on human babies will continue.

[TaintedHero]

When you put it that way, Lilith spawn seem to be completely inferior to the Adamites in every way. Surely Lillth's spawn have to poses some trait greater than Adam's. I think what the angels have is extreme adaptability, Though the latter angels do seems to poses intelligence on par with humans. The question I have is, given the same amount of time as humans had on the earth, would they have developed tools and society? My opinion is that had they not began to adapt to the new world they would have just roamed the land like the beasts in Shadows of Colossus.

[Reichu]

This is true, but my point is that a single human can learn a lot more in his or her lifetime than a single Angel.

The Angels had the potential to live for (probably) billions of years, so I'm not sure where you're getting this from.

We don't know how long the Angels incubated

They didn't get their souls until Second Impact, so: fifteen years.

@Tainted: On an "Angelic" world, the Angels indeed probably wouldn't be stimulated in the way they are in NGE. On the other hand, they would be free to pursue Fruit of Life-y stuff more fully, and do whatever it is that people who don't have to worry about survival do. I suspect that inevitably, though, some of them would start yearning for a limited, interdependent sort of existence -- in the same way that Lilin want to live forever and have awesome powers -- from which knowledge would then spring.

[AshPhoenix]

The Angels had the potential to live for (probably) billions of years, so I'm not sure where you're getting this from.

Even if they can live forever, they show little to no sign of actively learning (except Iruel. And it didn't even do it right: it ended up "learning" death and erasing its own existence. In any case, Iruel didn't do much actual learning, it just kind of leeched information off of the humans' knowledge). Humans learn in their own lifetime, efficiently producing whatever they can out of the materials available to them. In essence, I think that's what the Fruit of Knowledge entails: not super-amazing intelligence, but the ability to use logic, to learn, and to use tools.

They didn't get their souls until Second Impact, so: fifteen years.

Oh. Got it.

I suspect that inevitably, though, some of them would start yearning for a limited, interdependent sort of existence -- in the same way that Lilin want to live forever and have awesome powers -- from which knowledge would then spring.

I don't fully agree with that. I think that the Angels might want intelligence, but seeing as they don't have an abundance of it already, it would be more of a dull yearning/instinct rather than an active, focused goal to achieve. Even so, they wouldn't have any base to pursue such a goal, seeing as they can't use tools, so it's a moot point.
Regarding the "from which knowledge would spring", no offense, but I don't think that would ever happen. To make an analogy, saying that Angels would eventually grasp the concept of knowledge and gain the intellect that humans possess through sheer willpower and the passage of time is like saying that humans will suddenly find a way to become immortal through science and logic (I mean, people might achieve something similar to immortality, but IMO it would just be a vastly extended lifespan rather than true immortality.).

[Legendary]

I was always under the impression that the Fruit of Knowledge was the proper knowledge of self and other; not the knowledge of the world. The Angels seem dreadfully ill-equipped for interacting with each other in any meaningful fashion, and their interactions with the humans are tentative, uncertain, and ultimately disastrous for both sides (much like how mankind giving themselves Angelic powers in the forms of the Evas proved disastrous).

[Reichu]

Even if they can live forever, they show little to no sign of actively learning

Careful, there. How do you know whether something you (by and by) can't meaningfully communicate with is learning or not? And we're dealing with communication issues much more substantial than, say, the sorts of language or learning disability barriers that have resulted in members of our species being carelessly marked as lacking for intelligence. Also worth nothing is that empirically measuring non-human [non-Lilin] intelligence (including capacity to learn) requires carefully constructed experiments; and measuring our own is contentious enough as it is.

(except Iruel. And it didn't even do it right: it ended up "learning" death and erasing its own existence.

Which is interesting, since IRL humans are more than capable of learning that self-destruction is a good idea. I guess they're doing it wrong, too.

In any case, Iruel didn't do much actual learning, it just kind of leeched information off of the humans' knowledge).

If you're going to put it that way, Lilin make a living of "leeching" off previous Lilin's knowledge. I'm also not sure exactly how Ireul did anything less than "actual learning" here. It was exposed to strange Lilin technology and was able to work with it, without anyone else's help -- the ultimate autodidact.

I don't fully agree with that. (snip)

It's the "grass is always greener" syndrome. Angels are humans at the core (no... pun intended), and humans tend to want whatever they don't have. For us, that's eternal life and super-powers. For the Angels, that's whatever "knowledge" entails, and maybe other aspects of our existence that is precluded by possessing the FoL. Whether or not they could achieve the FoK is totally hypothetical, much as whether or not Lilin (or something similar) could eventually achieve the FoL.

The Angels don't use tools because they can turn their bodies into anything and manipulate their surroundings with the ATF, so basically they ARE their own tools/technology.

[Aozora]

The Fruit of Knowledge... I don't think it is really related to intelligence or learning, since some angels are shown to have these traits. I interpret the Fruit of Knowledge to be human ingenuity, the ability and mind frame to build and create what we lack. Humans lack the power and immortality of the angels, but they can build weapons, defenses, and the Evas to bring themselves to a more equal standing. I think Fuyutsuki and Gendo discuss this a little when they go down to Antarctica.
And Kaworu, who is potentially a plothole in himself on this subject, uses his angelic powers to achieve his goals(possessing the Eva instead of piloting it, floating, using AT Fields, unlocking doors with his mind) rather than doing spy work and hacking like Kaji.

"Fruit of Knowledge" also implies "knowledge of good and evil." Which implies that humans have some moral sense that angels lack. It makes sense in a way because we largely regard angels as being animal like in that we don't regard them as understanding that what they do may be wrong or immoral. This is unrelated to whether or not animals in real life have a moral sense, remember Eva is fiction.

[Monk Ed]

In reviewing the script for ep 17, I noticed something.

IKARI:
The Angels are beginning to attain intelligence.
The time left to us is...

KEEL'S VOICE:
Running short?

Anyone ever notice that this seems like it never gets followed up on?

And then it hit me, like a ton of bricks: The evolution of intelligence that we find in the Angels... What if that's the Angels seeking the FoK? Humans and Angels seem to be "competing"; while the humans try to attain the Fruit of Life through their science, the Angels are trying to acquire the Fruit of Knowledge using their own means. Ireul might have been trying to evolve it... maybe Arael was seeking it in Asuka's mind... etc. Not all were looking for it, but perhaps in general they were, and that was heavy on Seele's mind.

Taken from this angle, some examples that Reichu cites of the Angels already having the potential to have the FoK would instead be examples of the Angels seeking (or trying to develop) the FoK.

[illustriusCheese]

Anyone ever notice that this seems like it never gets followed up on?

Before that in ep1 Gendo says Sachiel is getting smarter

[Azathoth]

Anyone ever notice that this seems like it never gets followed up on?

It's a pretty clear-cut hint, as you suggest, that the next wave of Angels is going to be drawn towards humanity and the human mind (except Zeruel, but Zeruel doesn't give a shit). It would be interesting if they were seeking the Fruit of Knowledge on their own, much as the Lilin are seeking control of the Fruit of Life - but I don't think the narrative really supports it. The most coherent interaction between Angel and pilot we ever get is Rei's conversation with Armisael, and even then Armisael doesn't seem interested in any FoK-related stuff but rather in Rei's lack of complementation (not what she had expected of a Seed of Life? not what she had expected of a human? what exactly does Armisael know?).