Gendo's Fate (again again)

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Postby Shin-seiki » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:06 am

With his last words “Forgive me… Shinji,” Gendou is crushed by the jaws of Eva–01. Was this the retribution toward a man who kept running from the world, or was it also his salvation…?
I have long felt that this
...is simply the fulfillment of this:
#26' wrote:Let us begin, Rei.
Release your AT Field, the barrier of your mind.
Make our imperfect souls whole again.
Discard this unnecessary physical shape.
Merge all souls into one.
And then, take me to Yui's side.


As I have pointed out elsewhere, Rei in EoE is all about fulfilling people's wishes, and that includes Gendo.

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Postby Kendrix » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:40 am

View Original PostShin-seiki wrote:I have long felt that this
...is simply the fulfillment of this:

As I have pointed out elsewhere, Rei in EoE is all about fulfilling people's wishes, and that includes Gendo.


Don't confuse 'showing the ppl they want to see' with fullfilling all their whishes.
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Postby Jornophelanthas » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:21 am

Shinji believes he is a terrible person. He runs away from people, even though he knows he mustn't. So he stops running away, and instead sees all his efforts turn to dust and only make matters worse. He shames himself and fails every last person he has ever had any interaction with. (Or at least that is his perception of the events in NGE and the first part of EoE.)

Gendo is just like Shinji, except that he started running away after Yui's "accident", and never stopped. He believes that he is a terrible person, but accepts it as something that can no longer be helped; Yui was the only person who could ever make him try, and he lost her long ago. Since then, he simply stopped trying to be a good person, even though he always knew he should, at least for Shinji's sake.

Gendo's final speech shows that he knows himself as a treacherous, ruthless, heartless person, an obsessed maniac, an unfaithful lover, and a terrible parent. Being with Yui again was his only goal, and it would justify everything he did to get there. It was a desperate gamble that he was willing to embrace, and he failed.

As his plans fall into ruin all around him, he accepts the fact that his acts can no longer be defended, and all that is left for him is to ask for forgiveness, even though he does not feel worthy of it. (After all, he believes he is a terrible person, just like Shinji.)

Therefore, I believe Yui turning into Unit-01 and biting Gendo in half is Gendo's wish to be denied forgiveness by Yui (for his treatment of Shinji), borne of his own self-loathing.

---

(Why is it that every time I try to analyse anything from EoE, I end up with disgust as the answer? Am I on to something here?)

---

Edit:
Upon re-reading the post, I realized that Gendo's asking for forgiveness (even though he does not believe it should be granted) is the single moment of character development we see in him. As such, it is his only redeeming quality.

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Postby AuraTwilight » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:37 pm

View Original PostKendrix wrote:Don't confuse 'showing the ppl they want to see' with fullfilling all their whishes.


What's the difference?
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Postby esselfortium » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:51 pm

View Original PostJornophelanthas wrote:Gendo is just like Shinji

He thinks he's just like Shinji, but I don't really think we should take his interpretation at face value. We know Shinji better than he does.

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:44 pm

View Original PostShin-seiki wrote:I have long felt that this
...is simply the fulfillment of this:

Beautiful picture of their love, there. :toothy:

Though, is showing Gendo an illusion of Yui really fulfillment of his dreams? Seems as if that would have happened even if Third Impact went Seele's way, wouldn't it?

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Postby Jornophelanthas » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:13 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:He thinks he's just like Shinji, but I don't really think we should take his interpretation at face value. We know Shinji better than he does.


Gendo is just like Shinji to the extent that both suffer from the "hedgehog dilemma". They both fear being hurt by others, and they both suffer from being alone.

They differ in how they approach things:
- Shinji believes that it is wrong to "run away". Therefore, he tries to connect to people, even though it is painful to him. But everything blows up in his face in the end, and he loses everyone who is dear to him.
- Gendo has chosen to "run away" long ago, because everything blew up in his face when he lost Yui. Yui was everything to him, and he lost her.

Gendo is what Shinji would become, if Shinji would give up and simply chooses to "run away".

This becomes clear to us, the audience, as Gendo delivers his final speech. Gendo does not recognize that Shinji has the same problem that he has; rather, I believe Gendo simply regards Shinji as the son that he always kept at arm's length, and who was always afraid to be a father to, because he believes himself incapable of being a good father. Gendo believed the best thing he could do for Shinji, was to give him his mother back, in any way possible.

And of course, by refusing to be a father at all, Gendo becomes a phenomenally bad father. This is what Gendo realizes in the end, and it is significant that the very last thing he said is Shinji's name. I don't think he ever spoke it anywhere else.

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Postby AuraTwilight » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:36 pm

Gendo is a literary foil of Shinji. Let's leave it at that and not get into this argument for the billionth time.
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Postby AshPhoenix » Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:08 pm

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Though, is showing Gendo an illusion of Yui really fulfillment of his dreams? Seems as if that would have happened even if Third Impact went Seele's way, wouldn't it?

Is it really just an illusion? I can't help but think that Rei is transferring Gendo's soul into Unit-01, because:
a)That's what Gendo wanted--to be with Yui. Rei would simply be "fulfilling his wish".
b)Gendo's body didn't Tang. So does that mean that it no longer has a soul?
c)The "biting the head off of Gendo" thing seems a lot like a symbol for a transfer of the soul (i.e., Gendo's personality is in his brain, which was bitten off/transferred by/to Unit-01).
d)Kaworu also appeared to Gendo, meaning that (to some extent) the Lilith/Adam amalgamation was present to help out with fulfilling Gendo's wish.

I would speculate that in Seele's version of Instrumentality, everybody's souls would be collected into one being, whereas in Gendo's version, he and Yui would be together inside Unit-01 in all eternity.
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Postby Kevin » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:32 pm

to c):

Gendo not only gets his head bitten off, but everything except his legs. Beside of that, I also think it's something symbolistic. because at this point Unit 01 was already combined with the LoL. So maybe when Gendo spoke about "punishment" (I dont know if that exactly is what he says, in the german version he says "Ist das meine Bestrafung") what would be a 1:1 translation in "Is this my punishment?" but maybe he says something else in the US Version or the english subs :D Ahhh doesnt matter.

So what I wanted to say is, that the complete "Bite Off" scene just means, that Gendos HIP process is something painfull compared to other humans, but in the end he gets what he wanted.
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Postby esselfortium » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:36 pm

View Original PostJornophelanthas wrote:Gendo is what Shinji would become, if Shinji would give up and simply chooses to "run away".

Shinji would have become an uncaring manipulator who steps on peoples' lives for personal gain? I can't see it.

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Postby gwern » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:07 pm

View Original PostKevin wrote:Gendo not only gets his head bitten off, but everything except his legs. Beside of that, I also think it's something symbolistic. because at this point Unit 01 was already combined with the LoL. So maybe when Gendo spoke about "punishment" (I dont know if that exactly is what he says, in the german version he says "Ist das meine Bestrafung") what would be a 1:1 translation in "Is this my punishment?" but maybe he says something else in the US Version or the english subs :D Ahhh doesnt matter.


Bochan_bird's translation is 'So, this is my retribution. Forgive me... Shinji.'

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Postby Azathoth » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:12 pm

View Original Postgwern wrote:Bochan_bird's translation is 'So, this is my retribution. Forgive me... Shinji.'


That's an extremely awkward translation to be honest, implying that Gendou is the agent of the retribution rather than its object.
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Postby gwern » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:32 pm

I'd have to disagree. Given that he's apologizing, is being criticized by Yui/Kaworu, and is about to be chomped in half, I didn't have any problem understanding who the retribution was being visited on in any read or watch of EoE. It's only awkward out of context, maybe.

(If you look in Google Books for 'my retribution' and filter out the Bible & Koran hits, you'll notice not a few use 'my retribution' in the sense of 'my punishment'; not all use it in the sense of 'my revenge'.)

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Postby Jornophelanthas » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:20 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Shinji would have become an uncaring manipulator who steps on peoples' lives for personal gain? I can't see it.


If Shinji still has something to live for (like getting his long-lost love back against all odds), certainly.
If Shinji had nothing to live for, he would have become an uncaring hermit and maybe commit suicide.

If Gendo had no single sliver of hope of ever getting Yui back (i.e. if he had nothing to live for), Gendo would have become an uncaring hermit and maybe commit suicide.

My main point is that Gendo's uncaring callousness stems from the same moral dilemma as the one Shinji experiences, except that Gendo chose the wrong path. And by "wrong" I mean the path Anno presents to us as wrong.

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Postby Reichu » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:28 pm

View Original PostAshPhoenix wrote:c)The "biting the head off of Gendo" thing seems a lot like a symbol for a transfer of the soul (i.e., Gendo's personality is in his brain, which was bitten off/transferred by/to Unit-01).

As mentioned, Gendo gets his entire upper body bitten off, which actually ties into the "soul" idea better; NGE associates the soul with the solar plexus region (pit of the stomach) the most, so far as "residence" is concerned.

And once the big Eva-01 is gone, Rei 3 is now posed as though she's cupping her hands around something. It recalls her holding the Black Moon, of course, but considering the Black Moon is basically a gigantic soul jar at this point...

Plus there's the whole "eat somebody to swallow their soul/essence" thing.
Last edited by Reichu on Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:01 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:NGE associates the soul with the solar plexus region (pit of the stomach) the most, so far as "residence" is concerned.
And the eyes... don't forget the eyes (Gendo's glasses and stuff).
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Postby Reichu » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:48 pm

View Original PostEva Yojimbo wrote:And the eyes... don't forget the eyes (Gendo's glasses and stuff).

I did specify "residence", didn't I? ;p If you want to go for general associations, I'd throw in hands as well.
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Postby Kendrix » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:58 pm

Wasn't Rei III holding the shattered glasses? (as a contrast to Rei II holding the whole ones?)

Older scripts had him tanged like everyone else, Anno probably just thought of a more dramatic way to do so - Gendo's upper Body probably tanged while we got to see it from his perspective, and the rest of it remains/takes longer to tang, like Maya's hand.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:05 pm

@Kendrix:

SPOILER: Show
Image

(Sorry for the silliness in the middle. I could locate this more quickly than the original screenshot.)
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