Was Kaji misinformed, or...?

[AshPhoenix]

Assumedly there is a way to blow up most of the Nerv HQ complex

I'm pretty sure Magi has a self-destruct thing going on...it was almost activated twice (once when Iruel hacked Magi, and twice when Ritsuko tried to blow up the whole Geofront in EoE).

I'm not trying to prove any specific theory, though it looks clear to me from the evidence that there is a writing discrepancy. I'm attempting to call attention to this scene and see that it is addressed fully and adequately.

Okay, so just to make sure, Gendo was referring to the giant in the basement, right?

[Seele00TextOnly]

...

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

I'm not trying to prove any specific theory, though it looks clear to me from the evidence that there is a writing discrepancy. I'm attempting to call attention to this scene and see that it is addressed fully and adequately.

Yeah. We can pick apart scenes all day, but the truth of the matter is that it doesn't matter how any of these things got into the script. What matters is what it does within the script. There are somethings that are glaring plot holes to the point of it only being defined as a mistake on the part of the storyteller. There are other moments where something may slightly inconsistent with the rest of the plot (whether it be because of writing episodes on the fly or whatever), but can still work within the context of the of the plot regardless of how the writer thought it was originally going to work. And for Anno juggling as many themes, metaphors, motifs, story arcs, and plot threads as he was while writing these episodes on the fly, I'm surprised there are as little inconsistencies as we seem to find.

[Eva Yojimbo]

Misato actually watches the crusified lilith and it's form immediately reminds her of an Eva and Adam. They look a lot alike after all.

Does it REMIND her of Adam, or is she intuitively concluding that it MUST be Adam because she doesn't know about Lilith?

You're neglecting the episode 13 dialogue between Gendo and Fuyu in confidence.

Yeah, but, we really don't know what they've done with the Embryo by this point. That said, I think it's clear that Anno and co. wanted the audience to THINK that they were referring to the giant in the basement (again, that would fit in line with the theory that they were saving ep. 24 as the shocking reveal), so this would complicate matters as to using anything they as evidence that they were actually referring to the giant.

Normally, Occam's razor would reign in these cases and the "they made a mistake" would be given the benefit. The problem here is that the bait-and-switch is actually something Anno and co. do consistently with other elements throughout the series, setting things up to be one thing and then revealing it's completely different. So I don't think in this case that we should just assume that those lines would be more likely to be referring to the giant as opposed to wanting the audience to think that's what they're referring to.

[Xard]

Yeah, but, we really don't know what they've done with the Embryo by this point. That said, I think it's clear that Anno and co. wanted the audience to THINK that they were referring to the giant in the basement (again, that would fit in line with the theory that they were saving ep. 24 as the shocking reveal), so this would complicate matters as to using anything they as evidence that they were actually referring to the giant.

Normally, Occam's razor would reign in these cases and the "they made a mistake" would be given the benefit. The problem here is that the bait-and-switch is actually something Anno and co. do consistently with other elements throughout the series, setting things up to be one thing and then revealing it's completely different. So I don't think in this case that we should just assume that those lines would be more likely to be referring to the giant as opposed to wanting the audience to think that's what they're referring to.

Anno didn't plan SHIT beforehand. It's obviously lolderp writing in here. The currently under translation Rebuild interviews have validated the always pretty obvious fact they made it all up on the fly.

Another seemingly important plot element that was simply forgotten was ep 10's deal with capturing Angels etc.

SEELE & Gendo treat it as absofuckinglutely crucial for their keikakus but after the capture mission in ep 10 fails it never comes up again. It always bothered me when I first watched Eva.

Deal with Adam here is obviously similar. That ep 24 drafts - written long time after ep 13 - refer to Giant as ADAM debunks any theory that tries to claim there was some intentional misdirection going on in mid-teen eps.

[Allemann]

Why can't people accept that this is a plot hole? No amount of rationalization will make it go away. The Gainax people are made of flesh and blood as we. They made a mistake. So what?

[Xard]

Why can't people accept that this is a plot hole? No amount of rationalization will make it go away. The Gainax people are made of flesh and blood as we. They made a mistake. So what?

If Jimbo admits there are faults in works that belong to his Teh Graetaest Masterpiices* list his self image will explode into a bloody mess



*NGE, 2001, Hamlet and 70s French erotica

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Why can't people accept that this is a plot hole? No amount of rationalization will make it go away. The Gainax people are made of flesh and blood as we. They made a mistake. So what?

Well, it's a plot hole if the plot outright contradicts itself. But since we don't know where Adam is locked up, this particular issue remains open for debate. Since there's little to no information in this area of the plot to contradict at this point, it's not a large enough mistake to be called an official plot hole.

I'm not saying that this isn't a mistake, but it's not a mistake that couldn't easily be explained anyway.

True, Adam seems to be easy to transport and all that, so they could possibly go down there and get it before or as the Angel arrives. But I've absolutely no clue what needs to be done to the guy in order for him to become in a state of suspended animation without that special casing so he doesn't either die or develop more that he should and rip outside of Gendo's hand at some point. Maybe Adam's going through the process of being in suspended animation without the brief-case sized container. And since I assume none of here actually know how to keep a huge NGE angelic being in a state of suspended animation, I'm also gonna assume none of you know how long that would take or how immobile the process needs to be in order for it to be a success.

Hence why they probably couldn't movie Adam during the angel attack. Is that what Anno was thinking at the time he wrote episode 13? I don't know, and to be honest I don't really care either. This is the conclusion the script seems to lead us to in its current state, planned or no, so we'll just go with it.

[AuraTwilight]

Why can't people accept that this is a plot hole? No amount of rationalization will make it go away. The Gainax people are made of flesh and blood as we. They made a mistake. So what?

I don't see how it's a plot hole for in-universe characters to be misinformed about shit.

[Allemann]

I don't see how it's a plot hole for in-universe characters to be misinformed about shit.

There's no hint being given by which to think the misinformation was put intentionally to the plot, and we have good reasons to think it's a result of lazy writing.

[Shin-seiki]

I don't see how it's a plot hole for in-universe characters to be misinformed about shit.

^This

There's no hint being given by which to think the misinformation was put intentionally to the plot,

So, where does the 'Second Angel', whose existence is implied by the designation of Sachiel as the 'Third' from the beginning of the series, fit into all this?

and we have good reasons to think it's a result of lazy writing.

I'm not exactly sold on this notion that Anno-tachi are just pulling stuff out of their ass at every turn. There seems to me to be an awful lot of instances of things in the early episodes that look like throwaway lines at the time, but which turn out to have significant pay-offs later on (e.g. Misato's "irony bomb" in #02, or Toji's "Are only weirdos chosen to be pilots?" in #09). I think that intentional narrative subtlety is a big part of what NGE is all about.

[AshPhoenix]

I think that intentional narrative vagueness is a big part of what NGE is all about.

Fixed.

[Seele00TextOnly]

...

[Eva Yojimbo]

...ep 10's deal with capturing Angels etc. mSEELE & Gendo treat it as absofuckinglutely crucial for their keikakus but after the capture mission in ep 10 fails it never comes up again. It always bothered me when I first watched Eva.

Could be because they got the data/information they needed elsewhere. You know, one thing that follows along with Anno and co. "making it up on the fly" is that Seele and Gendo were obviously making a lot of it up on the fly as they went along too. All of the stumbling guesswork they do combined with nothing ever going according to plan is a pretty clear indication they were shooting in the dark and hoping for the best all along. I remember once proposing that the reason it took so long for the HIP to actually get put into place is because even though Seele and co. had the pieces to the puzzle, they had no clue how to put them together into a coherent plan.

If Jimbo admits there are faults in works that belong to his Teh Graetaest Masterpiices* list his self image will explode into a bloody mess

*NGE, 2001, Hamlet and 70s French erotica

If you think I think Hamlet isn't full of faults, then you're gravely mistaken (that awful, elongated first Ghost scene and the rampant inconsistencies fall in line with many of NGE's).

Well, it's a plot hole if the plot outright contradicts itself... I'm not saying that this isn't a mistake, but it's not a mistake that couldn't easily be explained anyway.

THIS.

There seems to me to be an awful lot of instances of things in the early episodes that look like throwaway lines at the time, but which turn out to have significant pay-offs later on

Not just lines, but NGE's extensive and rather elaborately developed motifs in all areas are proof that Anno and co. had a good deal of it planned. I'm not arguing they had it planned down to the minutest detail, but what production ever is? Obviously, NGE is looser in some areas than others, but there is always an overarching, guiding principle happening throughout and they occur in every facet of the production to hold it together.

[AuraTwilight]

We're talking about Fuyu and Gendo being misinformed about the very thing that we know remained it's exact size from when we saw it in episode 8; it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that Adam stayed in the bakelite the whole time until Gendo's hand procedure. Either way, they know what Adam is and what Adam isn't.

Adam is:
a) small enough to fit in the palm of your hand, from when they received it until when it was put into Gendo
b) encased in bakelite to prevent maturation
c) encased in a suitcase for storage
d) easily movable

Adam is not:
a) the giant in terminal dogma

Yet we have the entire cast, including characters that should know exactly what is Adam and what is Lilith (especially Fuyu and Gendo, and yeah, I'm gonna personally include Kaworu here; however Angel spidey-sense works, it should be able to distinguish between it's own mommy and the mommy of its sworn enemies) calling the Lilith Adam until episode 24.

As for all this to purposefully bait and switch the audience, there's a way to do that correctly and a way to completely shoot yourself in the foot; having every member of the principal cast speak to eachother about something they each know in completely false terms for no in-universe reason isn't the way to go about it.

Of course people are free to the most absurd fanwanks that their mind can fathom; it's nice however to see at least most commenters here acknowledging a plot hole when they see it. It doesn't ruin Evangelion or anything, but sometimes we just have to call a Lilith a Lilith.

There's nothing in the series anyone's been able to show so far that implies Gendo and Fuyutsuki were mistaken about anything. They do, however, have reason to lie to a shitload of people for their goals.

[Six Winged Angel]

I just remembered something: Lilith actually "sprouts" human-sized figures from her torn lower half, which also may imply the process of lilin creation. Since they are actually visible from her first appearance (episode 15) I suppose that it's one point plus to the assumption that the "Adam is Lilith" plot wasnt decided on the last minute. Except you want to argue on the "Adam the first human" part.

[Trajan]

All of us are confused so it's probably best to assume that the characters are too. Gendo thanks Kaji for bringing Adam in Episode 8 and refers to it specifically by name, so Kaji at least knows the existence of Adam, but the two don't look very similar on close inspection and Lilith is a hundred feet tall meaning that Adam would've had to have grown very fast. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that its illogical to confuse the two and Kaji should have known better, so I blame it as a simple plot inconsistency.

[Eva Yojimbo]

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that its illogical to confuse the two and Kaji should have known better, so I blame it as a simple plot inconsistency.

1. Kaji knew that Gendo wanted Adam for some purpose.

2. The only "giant being" that Kaji and Misato ever knew about was Adam.

3. Both know that the Evas were "grown" from samples of Adam.

4. Logic would conclude that Gendo and co. had created the giant in TD in the same way, and that that giant was Adam. What else was there to assume when they encountered it?

It works perfectly logically, actually.

[Xard]

Could be because they got the data/information they needed elsewhere.

No. It was quite simply forgotten and never addressed again aka bad writing.

Personally speaking I suspect this is tangent that remained from NGE before Anno went and censored the hell out of it prior start of its airing due to Aum Shinrikyo's sarin gas attack.

You know, one thing that follows along with Anno and co. "making it up on the fly" is that Seele and Gendo were obviously making a lot of it up on the fly as they went along too. All of the stumbling guesswork they do combined with nothing ever going according to plan is a pretty clear indication they were shooting in the dark and hoping for the best all along. I remember once proposing that the reason it took so long for the HIP to actually get put into place is because even though Seele and co. had the pieces to the puzzle, they had no clue how to put them together into a coherent plan.

lolno. SEELE and Gendo had clear plans since start with the unexpected developments happening during the series's narrative. This is why Gendo had to get rid of Lance of Longinus in ep 22 which ruined SEELE's original plans alongside with awakening of Eva-01.

If you think I think Hamlet isn't full of faults, then you're gravely mistaken (that awful, elongated first Ghost scene and the rampant inconsistencies fall in line with many of NGE's).

That's a start. Now if you'd be able to say the same about 2001...

Not just lines, but NGE's extensive and rather elaborately developed motifs in all areas are proof that Anno and co. had a good deal of it planned.

Making-shit-up-as-they-go-along-while-remaining-in-line-with-previously-established is all the planning you need to account for any motifs.

I really don't understand what's the deal in here. What is more plausible explanation, contrived fanwank a la this thread or simple writing fuckup supported by background material like ep 24 drafts?

No one says this can't be explained aka fanwanked away. That isn't the point

Come to think of it, this discussion and my Kaworu tangent in heal/hurt thread just gave me idea...hmm

I'm not exactly sold on this notion that Anno-tachi are just pulling stuff out of their ass at every turn. There seems to me to be an awful lot of instances of things in the early episodes that look like throwaway lines at the time, but which turn out to have significant pay-offs later on (e.g. Misato's "irony bomb" in #02, or Toji's "Are only weirdos chosen to be pilots?" in #09).

Coincidences

[Eva Yojimbo]

No. It was quite simply forgotten and never addressed again

Errr, they had been collecting data all along, you know.

SEELE and Gendo had clear plans since start with the unexpected developments happening during the series's narrative.

The "unexpected events" start from 2I which even Seele refer to as a massive mistake. They knew their destination, but they had no idea how to get there. Gendo was one step ahead of Seele, and Yui was one step ahead of both.

Now if you'd be able to say the same about 2001...

No such flaws exist in 2001. It's perfect to the point of being distancing, almost (I've said before I'll take flawed, human works over perfect ones if the former are good enough).

Making-shit-up-as-they-go-along-while-remaining-in-line-with-previously-established is all the planning you need to account for any motifs... Coincidences

You can account for some with either reasoning (developing established/coincidences), but not all of them. If they had no idea where they were going they would have had to constantly keep their mind on the "big picture" rather than having time to focus on such minor details, and there are a ridiculous number of minor details throughout the entire series, far, far too many for them all to be coincidences.

What is more plausible explanation, contrived fanwank a la this thread or simple writing fuckup supported by background material like ep 24 drafts?

Read what I wrote above how "fuckup" would typically be the Occam's Razor default, but given the misdirection nature of the series I don't think such a default exists. The drafts might lend credence to "fuckup" theory (I'm not entirely sure exactly what you're referring to, though).