Could Seele be dead?

[TheLobe]

we never see seelee in the flesh, and the only reasons for this is to look ominous and maintain secrecy. when kaworu spoke to the wrong number of monoliths they were thought it be the souls of dead angels. why would they manifest in this way?. Could seelee be communicating the same way? Also as a study of post WWII Japan with angels acting as a symbol of jewish retribution and the 2I being the nuclear strike, seelee, with all the German names surrounding them and as instigators of the study on Adam, and therefore defilement of the angels, represent the nazis, who only influence Japan in a retrospective ghostly way.

[The Eva Monkey]

we never see seelee in the flesh

The important ones are seen as "the committee" in early episodes.

when kaworu spoke to the wrong number of monoliths they were thought it be the souls of dead angels. why would they manifest in this way?.

It was an interesting idea, but it's been largely dismissed, even by Reichu, who came up with it in the first place.

Also as a study of post WWII Japan with angels acting as a symbol of jewish retribution and the 2I being the nuclear strike, seelee, with all the German names surrounding them and as instigators of the study on Adam, and therefore defilement of the angels, represent the nazis, who only influence Japan in a retrospective ghostly way.

I can see how you could read into it like that, but I really think you're reaching here, I don't think this was a conscious intention by the production crew.

[BiQ]

Have you seen End of Evangelion?

End of Evangelion  SPOILER: Show

We see chairman Kihl in flesh (and cyborg parts) when he gets tanged along everyone else. I selected to leave those committee meetings in early episodes unmentioned here in case someone wants to start claiming they are an spoof imagery by computers or otherwise ghostly apparitions...

Your theory would require quite inordinant amounts of fanwank for the sake of ...fanwank.

[thewayneiac]

we never see seelee in the flesh, and the only reasons for this is to look ominous and maintain secrecy. when kaworu spoke to the wrong number of monoliths they were thought it be the souls of dead angels. why would they manifest in this way?. Could seelee be communicating the same way? Also as a study of post WWII Japan with angels acting as a symbol of jewish retribution and the 2I being the nuclear strike, seelee, with all the German names surrounding them and as instigators of the study on Adam, and therefore defilement of the angels, represent the nazis, who only influence Japan in a retrospective ghostly way.

Good heavens, where to begin. O.K., we do, in fact, see some of Seele in the flesh, the ones who are on "The Committee":

Germany - Chairman Keel (In full color)
France - Yellow
Russia - Blue
United States of America - Green
United Kingdom - Red

There isn't any good reason why the dead Angels would manifest as Seele, and a lot of people don't believe this interpretation of the scene. The number of monoliths is actually wrong for the number of Angels as well, unless you count Israfel as two Angels, which no canon source does.

NGE is all wrong as a post WWII allegory. If 2I were supposed to be the A-Bomb, wouldn't it have happened in Japan, not Antarctica? If the Angels were supposed to be the vengefull souls of of Holocaust victims, wouldn't the story be set in Germany, with the attacks happening there?

If Seele were all ghosts, why would anyone obey them? Wouldn't the living people in Seele just take over?

I don't think this really works very well.

[The Eva Monkey]

If the Angels were supposed to be the vengefull souls of of Holocaust victims, wouldn't the story be set in Germany, with the attacks happening there?

In many ways, during the second world war, the Japanese did the same thing to the Chinese that the Germans did to European Jews. It doesn't get written about a lot. My understanding was that it was suppressed in the media for fear of retaliation against Japanese-American citizens.

Still, I completely agree with you. I think the theory is interesting, it just doesn't hold up.

[thewayneiac]

In many ways, during the second world war, the Japanese did the same thing to the Chinese that the Germans did to European Jews. It doesn't get written about a lot. My understanding was that it was suppressed in the media for fear of retaliation against Japanese-American citizens.

That's true, of course. But he specifically said "Jewish retribution", so I addressed the argument as he made it.

[TehDonutKing]

Maybe Keel is the only one alive. I doubt it, but you could certainly make a case for it.

[Frozzy]

maybe its company policy that the committee members only communicate via hologram to each other as they are far too busy to meet each other face to face and its much easier and safer for them to communicate this way

[Reichu]

unless you count Israfel as two Angels, which no canon source does.

You're misrepresenting the argument. The 15 monoliths = 15 Angels idea is based on a soul ("Seele") count, from the theory that Israfel has two souls but is filed as one Angel (which isn't as unreasonable as you make it sound). (E.g.: 18th Angel has billions of souls, but is filed as one.)

[Nightweaver20xx]

Seele is not dead. They are living people who seclude themselves in a secret location like the Illuminati to shape the world with an invisible hand. They meet daily and have holo-conferences with Gendo et al. in order to best determine how to execute their personal vision of an evolutionary awakening. Being THE secret organization in the Eva universe, they never reveal their location to anyone, even Nerv, and never need to. I would doubt even Gendo knows where they actually are, that is, the origin point of their holographic projections in Central Dogma.

[Azathoth]

The number of monoliths is actually wrong for the number of Angels as well, unless you count Israfel as two Angels, which no canon source does.

The number of Seele monoliths that talk to Gendou/Fuyutsuki/other Nerv personnel/each other during EoE is twelve, which doesn't remotely fit the number of Angels. However, the number of invisible Seele monoliths that Kaworu's chatting with on the lake in 24' is fifteen, which sort of fits if you consider Adam to have some existence independent of Tabris. And there's also the whole "psycho hazard area" thing. Consider them as an afterimage of Armisael's Angel Tower.

[thewayneiac]

The number of Seele monoliths that talk to Gendou/Fuyutsuki/other Nerv personnel/each other during EoE is twelve, which doesn't remotely fit the number of Angels. However, the number of invisible Seele monoliths that Kaworu's chatting with on the lake in 24' is fifteen, which sort of fits if you consider Adam to have some existence independent of Tabris. And there's also the whole "psycho hazard area" thing. Consider them as an afterimage of Armisael's Angel Tower.

Or I could just consder them Seele.

[TheLobe]

Good heavens, where to begin. O.K., we do, in fact, see some of Seele in the flesh, the ones who are on "The Committee"

I always assumed the comitee was done in a kind of hollographic chatroom. judging by the way they appear and disappear they are just as solid as the monliths. The only other time we see Keel is just before he's tanged, which is the kind of scene which could well not be real, but show his soul being tanged, or his loss of purpose with which he has kept alive.

NGE is all wrong as a post WWII allegory. If 2I were supposed to be the A-Bomb, wouldn't it have happened in Japan, not Antarctica? If the Angels were supposed to be the vengefull souls of of Holocaust victims, wouldn't the story be set in Germany, with the attacks happening there?

I've anways thought it was fairly well accepted that eva was about post WWII. In things that give eva only a passing mention that's normally what they say. for instance I've got a book on the Japanese artist murakami, and at one point they show a picture of lilith and have a footnote mentioning the 2I as a metaphor for the A bomb(s), and used to be in opening sentance of the tv tropes article as a study of post WWII Japan. yes the angels would be venegful against germany, but the story isn't about germany so it isn't included. The blast effecting antarctica is only an upscaling of it's impact.

If Seele were all ghosts, why would anyone obey them? Wouldn't the living people in Seele just take over?

the same way the give orders to the people at nerv I assume, holographically.

[Sachi]

Gendo appears holographically to the rest of the committee, as well as Ritsuko, Misato and Fuyutsuko do whenever they talk to Seele. The holographic representations are merely a way of communication and do not suggest that the members of Seele are ghosts. Ghosts would be completely out of place within the NGE canon; the closest thing we have to somebody existing beyond their natural lifespan is Kiel, who is kept alive by cybernetic machines, which is much more plausible and realistic than ghosts.

[TheLobe]

in a series where the souls are pivital to the plotline, which are moved and placed in different bodies? and ghosts are to unrealistic.

[Sachi]

in a series where the souls are pivital to the plotline, which are moved and placed in different bodies? and ghosts are to unrealistic.

The souls are handled using science; ghosts aren't. Eva is a science fiction, not a supernatural show that deals with any concept of heaven, hell or an afterlife.

[Warren Peace]

It was an interesting idea, but it's been largely dismissed, even by Reichu, who came up with it in the first place.

Oh yeah? I remember that, from a few years ago (in fact, I think I started the topic on another board where she first came up with it). Do you happen to remember the thread in which she disavowed it?

[Reichu]

Do you happen to remember the thread in which she disavowed it?

I'd find that interesting, too, since I can't remember disavowing it. :P

I haven't seen a satisfying alternate explanation for the numerical discrepancy to date. And Azathoth recently used it to explain the lolwtf "Psycho Hazard Area" -- a trivial detail, but one of those enduringly inexplicable ones. The more explanatory power a theory has, the more it has going for it.

The theory may not be popular, but it still serves a purpose. Go ahead, Wayne. Give me all the raspberries you got! I CAN TAKE IT

[Rodeo]

I think it's safe to assume that they're all alive and well since we can hear them tang in EoE.

[Kendrix]

You knopw you've gone over board when you suspect conspiracies behind the in-universe conspiracy.