What is needed for SEELE's third impact?

[TonyTH]

Hi guys. I just watched the show not too long ago, and I'm trying to piece things together...as I'm sure you all have the last ten years! And I hope this isn't a stupid question, buuut...

What was SEELE trying to do?...Or, I know WHAT they wanted to do, but how where they gonna do it?

I understand the Angels were trying to unite with Adam and finish the job, and take out all of humanity with with an anti-AT Field. I understand Gendo was trying to use Adam to unite with Lilith to cause his third impact.

But what the hell was SEELE trying to do? I read using Eva Unit 01 and the Harpys, and the lance...but I don't quite understand what they were doing or how that is supposed to work.

[soul.assassin]

If my noggin serves me right...

SPOILER: Show

1 - Unit-01 (which is essentially derived from Lilith) with an S2 Engine
1 - badly-traumatized Shinji Ikari (whom SEELE took advantage of at the last minute --SSD)
9 - Mass-Production Harpies, each with an S2 Engine and a Nagisa-type Dummy Plug, and armed with a Longinus copy.
1 - Original Spear of Longinus

That's what they need to bring about SEELE's edition of Instrumentality, which takes about devolving all forms of life into a single entity, a sea of LCL or primordial soup, with no hope of any further evolution or return to form.

http://wiki.evageeks.org/Third_Impact

[TonyTH]

I like how you list it like ingredients for soup.

"Shake vigorously, and insert into oven for 45 minutes for yummy Human Instrumentality!"

Well, that much I get...but how were those things going to be used? I understand the the other two scenarios, because I understand "Unholy union between Adam and Lilith" and the "Angel coming in contact with Adam causes giant anit-AT Field."

But this? I can KIND OF understand that Eva-01 is a replacement for Lilith, maybe. And maybe that the lance can make it seem...more like Lilith? Bad choice of words, but it's hard to say. But even with that much jumbled logic, what the hell were the MP Eva's for? What purpose do they serve?

Also, is there any theories why the lance came back? I think I might have one for that if there's not a good one already.

[soul.assassin]

The harpies carry S2 Engines, in addition to giving powerful energy to propel them, also provide immense amount of juice to create powerful AT-Fields (to preserve living forms, and as a shielding) and the inverse anti-AT-Field (to utterly cause living Lilith-based organisms to devolve into LCL). In addition they need to generate powerful AT-Fields to capture and lock in Unit-01 for the final ceremony.

[TonyTH]

And I guess then, all the souls are gathered into Eva-01 instead of Lilith. I see.

Thanks a lot man, that's not easy information to come by. Appreciate it!

[Azathoth]

And I guess then, all the souls are gathered into Eva-01 instead of Lilith. I see.

Thanks a lot man, that's not easy information to come by. Appreciate it!

It's worth noting that this was apparently not SEELE's original plan - it's implied that at some point they were planning to just use Lilith (and dummy-plugged version of the non-mass-production Evas?) but that seems to have gone out the window either after Unit 01 got an S2 organ or after Gendou got rid of the original Lance.

[Sailor Star Dust]

1 - badly-traumatized Shinji Ikari

Nitpick: Seele ordered the JSSDF to shoot the pilots on sight. It's just when Shinji ended up in Eva-01's entry plug they decided/attempted to use his trauma to their advantage.

[soul.assassin]

Nitpick: Seele ordered the JSSDF to shoot the pilots on sight. It's just when Shinji ended up in Eva-01's entry plug they decided/attempted to use his trauma to their advantage.

Fixed.

[Stuart]

Well, Chairman Keel looks pretty happy when he gets tanged, so it looks like it happened in a way he liked, although almost certainly not in the way he intended.

Lilith gets unexpectedly involved when Rei decides to go into its body and become GNR, and the Lance unexpectedly returns. Seele said they were wanting to use Unit 1 as "our own personal ark" - were they planning to all jump in the entry plug and assume the God position that Shinji seems to be in in the end (the ability to end and create new life).

[AuraTwilight]

Basically, Adam + Lilith = Instrumentality. However, Unit 01 with S2 Engine can act as a Lilith substitute, and the Harpie Evas were essentially used to call down the Lance from the moon, which is basically needed to keep control over the process and not get another Second Impact.

[NemZ]

Well, surely you can't have a REAL impact without some awesome nachos. I bet those Seele guys had a full Tex-Mex buffet set up to snack between creepy chants.

But seriously though, I think the only answer is "whatever Anno can think of"

[TonyTH]

Well, Chairman Keel looks pretty happy when he gets tanged, so it looks like it happened in a way he liked, although almost certainly not in the way he intended.

Lilith gets unexpectedly involved when Rei decides to go into its body and become GNR, and the Lance unexpectedly returns. Seele said they were wanting to use Unit 1 as "our own personal ark" - were they planning to all jump in the entry plug and assume the God position that Shinji seems to be in in the end (the ability to end and create new life).

Well, I think that's a matter of things LOOKING like they were going his way until the end. Then Shinji messed it up.

I'm guessing instead of all the souls converging in GNR, they probably would have converged in Eva-01 instead. Since it was essentially a Lilith substitute.

Basically, Adam + Lilith = Instrumentality. However, Unit 01 with S2 Engine can act as a Lilith substitute, and the Harpie Evas were essentially used to call down the Lance from the moon, which is basically needed to keep control over the process and not get another Second Impact.

Ya know...I was thinking about the lance. Maybe it came down because of the giant amount of energy in the MP Eva's AT Fields and Eva-01's life signs? It just thought that Eva-01 was Lilith, and the lance activated.

Think of it as when first impact happened and the lance quickly activated itself onto Adam.

Does that make any sense, or is that just a crazy idea?

[AuraTwilight]

No, you pretty much hit the nail on the head.

[Eva Yojimbo]

To elaborate slightly:

1. S2 Engines create worldwide anti-AT Field that disembodies all souls.
2. Lilith or 01 is needed because of their connection to the Black Moon.
3. The Black Moon is the ur-womb of mankind, so after the souls are disembodied, Lilith or 01 simply sucks them back up into the original void of life where the souls become a unity.

The Lance's role in the process is a bit mysterious. Considering it's consistently used as a penis, I've always liked the idea that it was the Lance that connected Lilith/01 to all the souls. The souls become like the sperm of the Lance, which are pumped into the Ark, and finally into the Black Moon womb.

[Reichu]

Considering it's consistently used as a penis, I've always liked the idea that it was the Lance that connected Lilith/01 to all the souls. The souls become like the sperm of the Lance, which are pumped into the Ark, and finally into the Black Moon womb.

The likening is a bit imperfect. In terms of in-show visuals, anyway, souls aren't shown interacting with the Spear, but they are shown interfacing with Lilith through the vagina-esque Doors of Guf (and Adam is intimated to have squirted Angel souls out of her own). So it ends up being more birthing / reverse-birthing.

I'm not against fanwanking some role for the Spear of Longinus in creation, though the most easily-interpreted uses in the show (and everything spelled out in supplemental material) seem to revolve more around destruction and control, for whatever that's worth.

NGE seems to have a thing for portraying "paternal" figures in a more overtly condemning light than maternal ones, after all...

[Azathoth]

I'm not against fanwanking some role for the Spear of Longinus in creation, though the most easily-interpreted uses in the show (and everything spelled out in supplemental material) seem to revolve more around destruction and control.

In view of that (namely DICKS DICKS DICKS) I'm inclined to say that the Spear(s) have some role in the creation of souls, or their transportation from red space, or whatever...maybe to initially "open" a Seed's Doors of Gauf when it first begins to reproduce?

Wouldn't be the first instance of hand-penetration by a Spear in Eva.

[Eva Yojimbo]

In terms of in-show visuals, anyway, souls aren't shown interacting with the Spear, but they are shown interfacing with Lilith through the vagina-esque Doors of Guf.

Actually, it's when the MPE's pierce themselves orgasmically with the spears that all the souls shoot up from the earth along with those light crosses like an ejaculation. I've always considered that a very important connection. As for the souls going to Lilith/Doors of Duf, remember that Lilith has effectively consumed The TOL Speared/Transformed 01 by this point, and it could very well be her connection with the souls.

[Reichu]

I'm inclined to say that the Spear(s) have some role in the creation of souls, or their transportation from red space, or whatever...maybe to initially "open" a Seed's Doors of Gauf [sic] when it first begins to reproduce?

Hmm...

Some Seeds, like Lilith, might require access Red Space, since the recycled FAR souls on hand (on reserve for the humans eventually produced by evolution?) probably wouldn’t cut it. An S2 Engine probably provides a path to the place [speaking of which, I really need to finish that Origin of Souls presentation…], but that wouldn’t help Lilith out too much. I’ve theorized in the past that the Spear could be used as an S2 of sorts by those lacking one — since it’s a double-helix thing that can apparently furnish its own energy without a problem — so, for a Seed taking the Fruit of Knowledge / LCL Gate option, I guess it might be feasible for her to use the Spear to… give herself a nice good fillin’ of energy or souls as required.

For someone like Adam, I’ll just shamelessly advocate my “Spear as genetic donor” idea again. Stick in Spear, instant bebby…!

[s]...As for all that Tree of Life crap, I honestly don't know. I can't recall coming up with anything even when I went crazy and connections both real and laughably illusory were bleeding through my meninges -- so, assuming I'm remembering correctly, this failure implies to me a certain degree of futility. But others are free to try![/s]

EDIT: Gyah, should have looked down when I previewed... I'll have to put that stuff on my brain's spin cycle, Jimbo.

EDIT (TRUE): Got one monkey-wrench for you. Lilith's palms are sucking up souls before her head eats the ToL. It's not a Reel Time thing, the ToL is literally hovering over her head and she's gobbling up souls anyway. So ToL might be an ingredient for HIP... I guess... Two fruits, embryo of a life, blah blah blah, tool to assist in reverting "lives" (souls) to a primordial, Fruitless (haw haw!) state.... or something...

C372

C373

[Eva Yojimbo]

Got one monkey-wrench for you. Lilith's palms are sucking up souls before her head eats the ToL.

Even still, GNR was already connected to the TOL by this point. The first thing she does when she shows up is take over the process from the MPEs, who were also connected to 01. It's like a giant Lance/01/TOL/Shinji/Lilith/Rei/MPE Network of interconnectivity. I've always meant to post my theory that the Rei heads popping up on the MPEs (was it on 01 too? I forget) was a visual representation of her ATF overpowering theirs; like a master-slave dialectic where the master-MPEs-over-slave-01 become slaves themselves to the new master-GNR.

EDIT: In that second picture, the souls are still hovering around the Black Moon; are they all done by the time Lilith's head eats the TOL?

[Reichu]

Oh sure, just handwave my monkey wrench why don’t ya… Move the goal posts… Deny me shallow gratification... I see how it is! Grumble grumble grumble!

In that second picture, the souls are still hovering around the Black Moon; are they all done by the time Lilith's head eats the TOL?

I haven't discovered EoE's 3D interactive mode, so ¯\(°_o)/¯

But, Weisenheimerism aside, there are so many souls that, given the pace of soul-suckage, I would assume -- absent insidious manipulations of Reel Time in that particular procession of cuts -- she is still sucking away when she makes sweet love to the ToL. Why, does the timing matter?

Also, while I can see how GNR could be connected to the ToL even before devouring it -- as there's a precedent with the harpies and Black Moon (and Rei-related quantum magic insanity in general) — this leaves me wondering about the necessity of gobbling up the thing at all. Aside from the whole “lol symbolism” thing.

This string of posts seems like it might have a better fit somewhere else… Ah, well, I’ll worry about it later.