Eva and the moe trend.

[Merridian]

If you want to see this difference in action, here's what to look for the next time you go to an anime con. Look for one of those places in the dealers room that is just selling old anime vhs tapes. There aren't very many left, so you should do this soon if your really curious. Last time I was at anime central I saw one or two there. But yeah if you find one look at all the anime shows they have there, then compare what their about to what you see in main stream anime today. The difference is pretty staggering.

I was referring more to state of the industry, methods of development, and the types of shows that were popular at that time compared to how things are today. The types of shows have diversified greatly since then, however the focus in demographic remains--or has returned to being--largely the same. And similarly, as the industry was in the early 90s, it is again declining relatively steadily in terms of cash and overall output. But today's industry is still more creative and a little more daring (in some senses... I don't think shit like Kaiba or Mouryou no Hako would have even been seriously considered in the early 90s, however both examples were also produced by Madhouse).

[The Abhorrent]

The Abhorrent, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't always assume we have no idea what we're talking about.

Sorry about that, just have a habit of simply trying to place all the relevant info in my posts regardless of whom it is directed at (no offense intended). Just trying to avoid missing that critical detail, and to verify my own thought process at times. Maybe it has something to do with my field of study (engineering), have to check and double check everything.

But I shall keep that in mind.

Don't you go confusing work with work's impact.

I agree with the principle, but the quote seemed to incorrectly associating the effects of NGE with the work itself. Meh, could just be me.

Deconstruction is shit, if only due to association with lolderrida. No need for another round.

I respectfully disagree. If the medium is getting stale, then the most effective way to get things changing is a shake-down of the established norms. From there, when you now how something works, you put it back together better than it was before. Still, things eventually get stale again and the cycle begins anew.

It's technically not the most original nor creative of processes, but it sure as hell gets the job done. As best I can discern, that was NGE's first effect on the anime industry. You can't really call the series original, but you can definitely call it different.

I don't see Rebuild going for any kind of deconstruction. And even if another "deconstruction-ish" series were to come along, I don't see what good it would do. What would you want it to focus on?

Just noting that Rebuild is in the middle of it's development and people are starting to complain about things getting stale and/or redundant. It's doubtful it'll deconstruct anything unless the last two films decide to tackle them.

As for what a deconstruction-type series should focus on? I don't follow anime that closely to be honest, so I'm not keeping the closest track of what the current cliches are. Still, those cliches are always the target. On a related note, I hear tragedy is a dying genre. So how about a revival of that type of story?

Derrida’s use of the word and the common use of the word are two slightly different things, though. Not that I disagree with you, but deconstruction has become more of a buzzword pseudonym for “realism” nowadays; or it refers to simplistically taking apart tropes and “figuring out how they function”, which in many cases involves attempting to infuse them with some semblance of realism anyway (EDIT: turns out that's what TV tropes defines it as, too). In contrast, I’m not sure if most people throwing the term around have even read Derrida. Either version sucks eggs as far as I’m concerned.

"Deconstruction" can definitely be called a buzzword of sorts, but the general process appears to be almost fundamental and is applicable to more fields than just art and philosophy. For example, the term "reverse engineering" could be described as the same idea as a matter of process but applied to mechanical devices. People have probably been taking things apart in order to figure out how they work since before recorded history. The early days of medicine do have a rather grim implication as a result.

The reason injecting realism into a trope or other literary device typically leads to it being labeled a deconstruction is just using one of the oldest methods of analysis:

Push something past the breaking point, survey the wreckage.

Often the point of a deconstruction is to show that something is unrealistic (which is why realism is such a common tool), or at least what's wrong with it. The next logical step is putting it back together, but better.


And I do suppose that TV Tropes is over-used as the font of all knowledge related to entertainment, but it does do an excellent job of putting things in "laymen's terms" (for those who aren't academics of the arts) and can do so in a very entertaining matter.

[Lucretius]

And it's also where the many mind screw &amp psychological elements start cropping up, as well as the plot becoming less important. The tone of the series went from somewhat bleak with a light at the end of the tunnel to pitch black.

AAGH THE LATER EPISODES HAVE INTROSPECTIVE SCENES AND LOTS OF MONTAGES! MY MIND HAS BEEN UTTERLY BLOWN.

By the nature of being a deconstruction and almost a direct stab at the concept of wish fulfillment (which permeates media in general).... Evangelion is certainly not instant gratification.

Is it even possible to make a work of genre fiction that isn't wish fulfillment? All dreams are wish fulfillment. A story about a guy whose house burns down and who subsequently finds out he has AIDS could still be "wish-fulfillment" as long as the reader gets something out of it.

NGE is pretty much wish-fulfillment all the way through. The earlier episodes are wish-fulfillment in the violence and pretty girls sense; the later episodes depend on catharsis derived from identification with the characters' sufferings.

And maybe it's just me, but it sounds like anime is due for another tour-de-force deconstruction. However, I'm not too sure if Rebuild of Evangelion should be said deconstruction.

No. No it isn't. "Deconstructing" robot-and-tits shows is an essentially masturbatory exercise. If you want realism, read an Updike novel about suburban adultery or something.

[Xard]

Is it even possible to make a work of genre fiction that isn't wish fulfillment? All dreams are wish fulfillment. A story about a guy whose house burns down and who subsequently finds out he has AIDS could still be "wish-fulfillment" as long as the reader gets something out of it.

NGE is pretty much wish-fulfillment all the way through. The earlier episodes are wish-fulfillment in the violence and pretty girls sense; the later episodes depend on catharsis derived from identification with the characters' sufferings.

Towards the end NGE's only target audience, as Yamaga quipped, was Anno himself. It was hardly wish-fulfillment for anyone, least of all for him.

Anyway, this is rather anal pedantry. The difference between typical wish fulfillment entertainment narrative and NGE is pretty clear.

I also most certainly disagree about all dreams being wish fulfillments. Where the fuck did you pull THAT from? Nightmares certainly aren't wish fullfillment.

[Sun Stealer]

[color=blue]There certainly is shiny robots in Evangelion but I do not recall any "moé" in the original Evangelion.

(or what is considered moé)

Evangelion accidentally invented moe (as well as Kuudere) in the character of Rei Ayanami. The Moe archetype is basically a cute girl who needs to be taken care of (as an alternative way of expressing masculinity seeming as how the traditional method of martial prowess is no longer viable in Japan's current political situation). Rei Ayanami was meant to be a deconstruction of the Yamato Nadeshiko, an ideal woman who existed to serve. I assume Anno intended this to coincide with Rei's purpose as a symbol of mother. But here is the thing, if it weren't for the fact that every couple of episodes Anno would do this:
Shinji: Hey Rei, you remind me of my mother.
Rei: Do not worry Ikari-kun, I will protect you because I am the mother symbol.
Anno: HINT HINT SHE IS SUPPOSED TO SYMBOLIZE THE MOTHER.
Nobody would know she was supposed to be a mother symbol. This is because she is a submissive, autistic girl incapable of taking care of herself. Shinji is clearly the dominant personality in the relationship; he is the kohai in his relationship with everyother character in the show except for his relationship with Rei, where he suddenly turns into super-extroverted, white knight, magical oyaji Shinji-senpai. He's downright paternal around her at times. Whether it's going white knight and pulling open her entry plug, bandaging a burned finger, or cleaning her room, she is always the one being taken care of. Hell, chronologically, Shinji might be her senior by as much as five years. Also, after Ramiel, she blushes every time Shinji so much as opens his mouth. (In Soviet Tokyo-3, Otaku-analogue parents mother symbol). Rei's characterization and symbolism began sprinting in opposite directions since episode 1. The Otaku latched on to the most superficial aspects of her character (especially in regards to Anno's relationship writing fumble), and thus the moemoe was born.

[Hyper Shinchan]

For now it seems that Anno is sticking with the moemoe thing as well considering what he did with the Reibuild.
Anyway it was his own fault for creating a character that was supposed to be one thing but acted in a (mostly) different way.

[TheLobe]

but aren't all three main characters critisisims of moe archetypes? Shinji is showing how pathetic a man like that would be, Rei is the harsh reality of the servile dollike facile creature moe is (I am not a doll) and Asuka is an absolute subversion.

[Sachi]

but aren't all three main characters critisisims of moe archetypes? Shinji is showing how pathetic a man like that would be, Rei is the harsh reality of the servile dollike facile creature moe is (I am not a doll) and Asuka is an absolute subversion.

The moe trend wasn't too entirely popular at the time and really didn't pick up in popularity until after NGE had finished. I doubt the characters themselves were criticisms of moe archetypes, since I'm more inclined to believe they're twists on older mecha character archetypes.

[Mr. Tines]

twists on older mecha character archetypes.

Legendary copypasta, anyone?

[Azathoth]

Legendary copypasta, anyone?

Only the most true copypastas become so legendary.

Whoever the first guy to realize that was, he's probably rich now.

[Sachi]

I didn't realize I had hit it word for word. Great minds think alike?

[Mr. Tines]

I didn't realize I had hit it word for word.

I was in fact referring to this.

[Merridian]

Evangelion accidentally invented moe (as well as Kuudere) in the character of Rei Ayanami.

afraid not. “moe” isn’t a character type. Concept of moe has been around for as long as audiences have felt a protective attachment toward the characters they’re watching. If anything, NGE’s just going off of (and in some way criticizing) the method of character development and audience manipulation that fueled the 80s anime industry; it’s considered by some to be responsible for the moe boom that has followed because, in ripping apart the 80s method, it also ripped apart a reliance upon a story arc-oriented narrative structure. By the last third of the show (starting with the halfway point, actually), the narrative becomes less and less overarchingly apparent and more and more focused on the intricacies and interactions of the characters, to such an extent that there are several episodes in which the only “important” plot-related action of the episode occurrs in a two minute sequence or in a few lines of dialogue, with the rest of the ep focusing entirely on the characters.

NGE marked that shift between traditional narrative structure and the fractured character-focused narrative, something that subsequent series have taken full advantage of in the last decade. This different method has vaguely become defined as some sort of “moe method” even when the original (and only consistently defined) usage of the word had nothing to do with the structure of narratives nor, really, with characters in themselves. But that’s what happens when tons of ambiguity is compounded by misinterpretations for a few years.

That said, I would agree with you that Rei has become one of the primary models for modern moexploitation. It's pretty amazing how many stock characters have come around that are defined by traits that Rei effectively set the standards for.

[Nightweaver20xx]

I just want to state for the record that reading this entire thread made me curl up into a ball on m couch and start shaking violently at having my own convenient fantasies and suppositions about Eva shattered into a thousand, snarking pieces. I shouldn't even be IN this thread; I'm not SMART enough to talk about this stuff. So I'll go browse something more comforting.

[Sun Stealer]

I just want to state for the record that reading this entire thread made me curl up into a ball on m couch and start shaking violently at having my own convenient fantasies and suppositions about Eva shattered into a thousand, snarking pieces. I shouldn't even be IN this thread; I'm not SMART enough to talk about this stuff. So I'll go browse something more comforting.

Evangelion: Even the fanwanking is a source of mindf**k.

[Shinji]

Whenever I hear "Moe character" I just think of Moe from the Simpsons

[Eva Yojimbo]

Merri  SPOILER: Show

It's just a terribly misused word, sort of like "pretentious". Continual misuse just compounded the confusion regarding the word until it has come to mean...

Continual misuse of words creates new, correct uses. It's why so many words mean multiple and even contradictory things. Etymology and dictionaries are only helpful insofar as their ability to track usage, rather than create and delineate it. FWIW, I don't think pretentious is "misused" anymore as much as I think it's woefully unargued.

Once that happened, the database that the writers drew from in order to exploit this elation suddenly got labeled as being 'moe', when in fact these things were merely tools used to elicit moe.

To me, I think it would be best to define moe like this:

Original definition: An affect produced in viewers in response to certain types of anime characters.

Second definition: Character types that illicit this effect.

Third definition: Works that use such characters or illicit this effect.

Potential fourth definition: The authorial intention to use said characters to create such an affect.

All three can be valid definitions. Referring to the original as the only true definition is ignoring how words and stuff work.

Derrida’s use of the word and the common use of the word are two slightly different things, though...Either version sucks eggs as far as I’m concerned.

CMIIW, but wasn't the original meaning essentially "analyze something to such an extreme that you exploit all the paradoxes and contradictions regardless of original intent?" The other (more frequently used) definition is along the lines of "take apart the forms, cliches, and devices to expose and subvert how it works." I don't know why you think both "sucks eggs". I'd say it's like any other aesthetic mode: valuable up to a point, useless when it becomes dogmatically extreme.

Concept of moe has been around for as long as audiences have felt a protective attachment toward the characters they’re watching.

Such a thing would predate anime, you know.

in ripping apart the 80s method, it also ripped apart a reliance upon a story arc-oriented narrative structure.

I really don't get this idea. NGE was extremely "story arc-oriented" and "narratively structured" right up until the end, and even EOE contains a strong story and narrative. Yes, EoTV primarily dismantled the story in favor of character exploration, but it's impossible to say that EoTV alone inspired the moe-fad (FLOABW). I don't even think you can say that the last third really does away with narrative all that much:

16: Everything is narrative with the exceptions of the mind-trips inside the Eva.
17: Probably the most character-oriented example, but also consider that it's setting up all that follows as well, so it's serving a narrative purpose.
18: VERY narrative oriented.
19: Same. In fact, it's probably the strongest example of single-episode narrative in the entire second half.
20: More about character, yes, but wrapped in a story about trying to recover Shinji.
21: The flashbacks are almost all simultaneously telling us the story before the story and the stories behind the characters; I think it's too equal to call here.
22: Perhaps more character oriented this time around, sure.
23: Lots of story here, especially with the whole Ritsuko unraveling stuff and Rei.
24: Again, lots of narrative, lots of stuff happens.

One problem, I think, is that it's hard to extricate story/narrative from characters because one way story is defined is by what happens to the characters. I guess it's one thing to say that the characters doing things is different than just interacting, but if we consider that stories are usually driven by conflict, action, and resolution, then there's certainly no lack of this in the last 1/3. One thing that undeniably happens is a condensation of the narrative; things happen much faster in much less time. Perhaps that condensation could produce a sense of less story, but I think it's rather illusive.

@Lucretius:

Is it even possible to make a work of genre fiction that isn't wish fulfillment?

I guess it depends on what you define the "wish" as and what you would define as "fulfilling it". Most all art has certain things designed so that we can identify with it, but whether that qualifies is something quite different.

"Deconstructing" robot-and-tits shows is an essentially masturbatory exercise. If you want realism, read an Updike novel about suburban adultery or something.

Errr, no, it's not just a masturbatory exercise. Realism doesn't make art any more or less masturbatory or relevant. "Art is the lie that tells the truth." --Picasso

@Azaroth:

she's an unnatural, contrived, anime-esque person, given a level of development such that she's a grotesque parody of the silent, cold-blooded badass characters that pervade anime, in the wake of Rei more than ever.

I think this is taking it to extremes a bit. Rei is still sympathetically human in her confusion over her sense of self. She has more than a few connections to the other characters in terms of her psychological problems. She's the most symbolic character because of the archetypal, broad canvas she's rendered on. Really, I don't think she's subject to much more-or-less anime character distortions than the other characters. Perhaps she's just the most consistent.

Unfortunately there's no stronger testament to the failure of the character of Rei, and of Evangelion's message in general, than the fact that there's still an Evangelion franchise.

You don't blame art (or artist) for its failure to effect mass change, even when that's (a naive) authorial intent. It's just not feasible; that would make every anti-war film a failure. It would make Dylan's protest work failures. Besides, change starts at an individual level anyways, and NGE has profoundly succeeded there, as many here can testify to.

I think the whole "we're all still here and into NGE so it failed" is one of the biggest loads of crap I've ever heard. Anno doesn't say "don't have passions", he doesn't say "don't analyze NGE or anime", hell, he didn't even say "don't ever escape from life with fantasy", what he says is "don't become obsessive to the point that you run away from everything else in life because you're afraid of being hurt; don't escape into fantasy permanently so that it turns into your entire reality and puts you into self-imposed exile." That message, more than anything else in NGE, resonated with me. It inspired me to actually get out there and do things for myself and others and reignited my love for art. It woke me up to myself and life and the world around me. So it did exactly what it was designed to do.

I say "love" and "passion" and not "obsession" in regard to my love for NGE and art because I see what I do as healthy rather than as an illness. I've experience depression; the deep, dark kind where you quit caring about anything. THAT'S a sickness. THAT'S what happens when you run away long enough. To care, to love, to have passion and be inspired is good. But there's a line between that and using what you love as a security blanket so you don't have to face everything else. As long as you face life (and I, and most others here, I suspect, do) then you're not doing what Anno didn't want you to do. Nobody will ever convince me otherwise, because I have first hand experience of what happens on the other side.