What the heck! So many questions...

[Dave]

But whatever... Dr. Reichu recommends a hearty dose of this. Start reading at post #35.

And if you don't like it... farbl.

Been there, read that. And while I applaud all of your efforts, I'm afraid I'll have to go with 'farbl'. :P

[Soluzar]

NGE2 tells us that Yui's father was a member of Seele. So she was essentially born into the organization. It makes a lot of sense, actually.

Even if that's the case, and I have issues with that, there's no evidence whatsoever that Yui herself was ever inducted into the inner circle. OK, so I admit that her father clearly was, but that doesn't mean that she was.

On a side-note, I really think that NGE2 has done more harm than good to our community. If we felt free to pick and choose which elements of it we would bring in, then that might enhance certain discussions, but I just don't feel able to accept a revelation as big as that from such a source as a video game, without other supporting evidence. There's not even so much as a hin of this in the anime, and I could point to several instances where it would have been better writing to insert a hint than to leave one out. I'm not entirely convinced, myself. Not by a video game.

[Reichu]

Been there, read that. And while I applaud all of your efforts, I'm afraid I'll have to go with 'farbl'. :P

I don't see what's so hard to understand, Dave-kun. The evidence is right there in front of your nose, but the nose hair blockage is so thick it can't reach the brain?

And Soluzar, with all due respect me sweets, when it comes to NGE you're supposed to gladly receive what little you are given, not throw it back out of principle and disgust. The secrets in NGE2 are a gift, not a bane. This video game just happened to be the vehicle by which previously undisclosed tidbits were revealed.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

And Soluzar, with all due respect me sweets, when it comes to NGE you're supposed to gladly receive what little you are given, not throw it back out of principle and disgust. The secrets in NGE2 are a gift, not a bane. This video game just happened to be the vehicle by which previously undisclosed tidbits were revealed.

But is it all just a retcon? Is it canon? Anno may have personally written the material, but was it all his original intention or is it something he threw together? We'll never know.

In any case, it should be possible for us to analyse NGE without other external references, in other words treat it as an atomic work. If one so chooses, one can base theories entirely on this one text #01-#26,#25',#26' and nothing else. On the other hand, you can also accept material from later sources if you feel it leads to a better understanding of NGE, and fits well with the narrative.
Yui as a quasi-member of SEELE by birth fits well for example. However, I'm not overly comfortable with the acient alien race stuff.

As can be gleaned from my posts, I'm not a huge fan of sequel retconning. Not since I saw Highlander 2. *shudders* How awful was that. Needless to say this is the primary reason I'm relucant to talk about Adam and Lilith as alien "seeders". Memories of the Zeist farce have forever tainted my perspective on explaining quasi-mythical happenings by using aliens. *shudders" I mean, they brought back Ramirez! The horror....the horror...

Well whatever floats your boat. Just bear in mind that external material may or may not go down as easy for some as for others.

[DatDude]

Please lock this before datdude goes on his NGE2 & what is canon rant yet again.

[Reichu]

OMF, the alien stuff fits perfectly with the show. Remember in #21, Gendo tells Fuyutsuki that they didn't have to do any excavation in the Geofront itself because SOMEBODY ELSE HAD. The analysis of the White Moon also comments that it is "clearly artificial".

Watch #22, #23, and #24 and look at all those bizarre, massive structures in Terminal Dogma. The giant cavities in the wall that Ritsuko and the others go past in their decent in #23. The gigantic door leading to Lilith's chamber. The Sephirotic-like array in the ground that is later used as a graveyard. The LCL pools in #25' and the strange writing on their inside walls. It seems rather reasonable to assume that all of that stuff was preexisting, and SOMEbody had to put it there.

It was not retconned -- it was always there, quietly minding its own business.

[DatDude]

Umm the origins of the angels is un important to the main theme of the show.

How Yui gets connections to Seele are unimportant to the theme of the show.

All of these table scraps do nothing but get in th way of what anno was trying to say with NGE its probly why it wasn't mentioned in the show or the movies.

Now we are confusing the hell out of our new friend with this im sure

[Reichu]

Why thank you, DD, for channeling the spirit of Aaron. Now, if you don't mind, these elements are still part of the show and they're still interesting in their own right. If you aren't intrigued, go start the sorts of discussions that you think we "should" be having.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

You know a friend of mine still considers one of Eva's best aspects to be its sci-Fi nature.
He considered Eva to be first and foremost a sci-fi show, and I suppose that sci-fi plays a big part of Eva. So the sci-fi elements are perhaps entitled to merit discussion in their own right.

[DatDude]

Why thank you, DD, for channeling the spirit of Aaron. Now, if you don't mind, these elements are still part of the show and they're still interesting in their own right. If you aren't intrigued, go start the sorts of discussions that you think we "should" be having.

Reichu LOOK AT THE THREAD WE ARE TALKING IN!

You telling subjective things to a noob that has no idea your pullong them from a video game made what ten years afte eva was over.

If this means I'm pulling a monkey and being a buzz kill them I'm glad I'm hear in his place. Other wise this guys going to go looking through eva for stuff thats not their.

[Reichu]

I always find the argument "This isn't what <such-and-such> is REALLY about, so it doesn't merit discussion" to be one of the lamest things I have to periodically hear. What "rule" states that only the underlying theme of something is the only worthwhile part? People seem to treat NGE's mystical and sci-fi furnishings as disposable rubbish, but they are valid a part of the story as any other. They are a vehicle used to deliver the "goods", yes, and different vehicles could have been used, but the fact is, this is what NGE is and this is what makes NGE unique. The same basic stories are told again and again, but it's how they are told, by what means, that makes a story special. NGE has no identity without that "expendable icing".

If you don't like the icing, fine, but don't criticise those who prefer their cakes with it. When I eat NGE, I eat and enjoy EVERYTHING.
I happen to like my fucked-up combinations of sci-fi and mysticism. NGE has a fascinating mythos, and all parts of it are worth discussing as much as anything else in the show. Again, if you don't think so, mind your own goddam business and stick to the things YOU like instead of raining down that self-righteous bullshit.

Back on topic, please.

And DD, the alien stuff IS there, if you took care to read one of my other posts today. Nothing in NGE 2 conflicts with anything in the series, and if it disrupts any of your own pet theories, that's too bad.

[Dave]

I'm afraid I will reluctantly have to agree with Reichu here--a thing I find harder and harder to do. You can choose to ignore some of the most amazing qualities to this show if you want, but don't expect others to do the same.

[Mr. Tines]

5. Finally, how do astronomers have photographs of the Milky Way galaxy if we are located in the galaxy?

Like this

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap950908.html

Well, he went to talk to a female contact on two different occasions (episodes #10 and #15). I never checked to see if they were the same person, though... I'll let someone else answer this.

They looked to be the same to me.

[DatDude]

This is just funny it really is.


Wayne if you need help or have any questions please use the PM function or IM me I'll help you out as best I can.

[Reichu]

Wayne if you need help or have any questions please use the PM function or IM me I'll help you out as best I can.

Is the implication here that you are the only one qualified to answer his questions? Talk about "funny".

[Soluzar]

And Soluzar, with all due respect me sweets, when it comes to NGE you're supposed to gladly receive what little you are given, not throw it back out of principle and disgust. The secrets in NGE2 are a gift, not a bane. This video game just happened to be the vehicle by which previously undisclosed tidbits were revealed.

I know. But when it goes directly against what can be clearly observed in the anime, what value does it have? If I am forced to reluctantly accept that it is true, then it de-values NGE for me. I lose.

If I am forced to conclude that it is a "mistake" then I cannot hold my head high in fan-circles, because I reject part of the canon material of the backstory. I lose.

I lose both ways, and that just makes me sad. I'm not in agreement with DatDude on this one. I'm more in agreement with you. However, what has been revealed in NGE2 has really destroyed the anime for me, so I lose once again.

[Reichu]

Why? What on Earth are you losing? It doesn't change anything about the show if Yui just happened to be born into Seele or everything can ultimately be blamed on aliens. They weren't crucial details to mention explicitly in the anime, which is why they were left out*, but they're interesting tidbits nonetheless.

* Or merely hinted at.

[Soluzar]

Why? What on Earth are you losing? It doesn't change anything about the show if Yui just happened to be born into Seele or everything can ultimately be blamed on aliens. They weren't crucial details to mention explicitly in the anime, which is why they were left out*, but they're interesting tidbits nonetheless.

* Or merely hinted at.

The alien civilisation part sits relatively well with me, and so does everything else I've read about what's in the game. Yui being 'born into SEELE' though is just a painful revelation. I find it unpleasant in the extreme to imagine Yui as mixing in the same circles as the SEELE members.

I had always been under the impression until now (think maybe I deliberately ignored other people saying it) that Yui just happened to be the scientist selected by Seele because her talents were the best for the job.

SEELE are such heinous villains, without the slightest redeeming qualities, that Yui seems tainted by association. I can accept it, and move on, though. I'm not going to argue that NGE2's revelations aren't valid. What I lose is a significant portion of my enjoyment of the anime.

[Reichu]

The alien civilisation part sits relatively well with me, and so does everything else I've read about what's in the game. Yui being 'born into SEELE' though is just a painful revelation. I find it unpleasant in the extreme to imagine Yui as mixing in the same circles as the SEELE members.

I had always been under the impression until now (think maybe I deliberately ignored other people saying it) that Yui just happened to be the scientist selected by Seele because her talents were the best for the job.

SEELE are such heinous villains, without the slightest redeeming qualities, that Yui seems tainted by association. I can accept it, and move on, though. I'm not going to argue that NGE2's revelations aren't valid. What I lose is a significant portion of my enjoyment of the anime.

I don't quite understand why this would bother you so much... It's like the argument some Christians use to discriminate against Jews -- "their ancestors killed Jesus!" One cannot help the circumstances one is born into, and the child of a villain need not follow vis parent's footsteps. Yui being associated with Seele by birth only taints her if she chooses to follow their ways, and she clearly did not -- rather, she chose to use her position near the inner circle AGAINST them.

It's like the daughter of someone on the executive board of a large cigarette company going and secretly lobbying against them using the very information and resources her position gives her access to. Or something like that.

[Soluzar]

The alien civilisation part sits relatively well with me, and so does everything else I've read about what's in the game. Yui being 'born into SEELE' though is just a painful revelation. I find it unpleasant in the extreme to imagine Yui as mixing in the same circles as the SEELE members.

I had always been under the impression until now (think maybe I deliberately ignored other people saying it) that Yui just happened to be the scientist selected by Seele because her talents were the best for the job.

SEELE are such heinous villains, without the slightest redeeming qualities, that Yui seems tainted by association. I can accept it, and move on, though. I'm not going to argue that NGE2's revelations aren't valid. What I lose is a significant portion of my enjoyment of the anime.

I don't quite understand why this would bother you so much... It's like the argument some Christians use to discriminate against Jews -- "their ancestors killed Jesus!" One cannot help the circumstances one is born into, and the child of a villain need not follow vis parent's footsteps. Yui being associated with Seele by birth only taints her if she chooses to follow their ways, and she clearly did not -- rather, she chose to use her position near the inner circle AGAINST them.

You are right, of course. It bothers me a lot less, now that I've had some chance to mull it over. I've been thinking about it a lot since this thread started, I suppose you could say that as long as she was never an active member of SEELE herself, she actually took by far the most virtuous path, by abandonning the power and priveledge that her birth afforded her, to pursue a path which brought an end to the machinations of SEELE.

Rather like Sayla in Mobile Suit Gundam, in a way. Although Sayla was in no way so important to the story.